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Crablezworth wrote: Let's also separate aos "the miniatures" from aos "the core rules". While it may take months to say print a book a or box, it seems like when the game is 4 pages of rules it couldn't have possibly taken too long. I can believe a lot of the logistics took a while but the core game resembles something scrawled on a napkin. Moving away from ranked combat is one thing but this whole models moving by the tail thing is a bit much.
More like 400 pages of rules if you include all the warscrolls.
Even ignoring that, the idea that smaller product=doesn't take as long or is the result of laziness or what have you is silly. Especially in the field of writing, being succinct is much more of a skill than bashing out as many words as possible. In many niches, such as usage guides or manual writing, fewer words is the entire goal and challenge of the job.
Until you add in the fact that GW did not bother with any balancing mechanism in the new rules - so a lot less time was spent in trying to playtest and balance the rules of AoS.
Kings of War is a succinct rules set.
Age of Sigmar is a short rules set.
Kings of War is a well balanced and flexible game.
Age of Sigmar is a steaming pile of
The Auld Grump
Automatically Appended Next Post: A very real question is - does Rountree view GW as marketing to gamers or to collectors?
The boardgames that are popping up like mushrooms after a summer shower make me suspect that he is marketing to gamers....
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/22 21:14:56
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Despite all the other things being changed back, 40K is the elephant in the room. From my personal viewpoint, I really want 40K to be cleaned up. I'm not interested in anything else although I agree it's good stuff in itself.
It's impossible to get people into 40k. It's such a huge clusterfeck.
a) "Oh, you want to play this army? Cool! So you need this...and this...and this...and this...oh, you also need models! The books are just a few hundred dollars!"
b) "Okay, move this unit here. Wait, it has a special rule. Move twice. Okay, you can also run. But you cannot assault if you run. Wait, that's Dangerous Terrain. You have to roll. Take an armor save. Your unit has a special rule to reroll armor saves! Re-roll. Okay, you just moved a few inches. Ah, wait, I gforgot that it's special dangerous terrain. Here, you need to roll on that chart to see what it does. Let me look that up...yeah here it is. Okay, roll 2D6. Okay, it's a scary forest. You need to roll a Fear test. Fear is a special rule t- ah wait, you're immune to Fear because you're a Space Marine. Okay, go on. You can move another unit now."
Not a by the book example, but that is how so many situations in 40k went in 6th / 7th. Every rule has a special rule with a special rule. That isn't fun. That's annoying. It's busy work. Sure, it's fun for some who want to really get into a game and get the most out of it etc., but for the casual player or beginner, it's about as fun as doing calculus. Keep in mind that most of us are 40k veterans and already know a lot of rules by heart. Beginner's don't. We grew up with 40k and many rules stayed and did not have to be learned anew. A new player who wants to start with 40k in 7th is easily frustrated or overwhelmed.
Take X-Wing as an example. Or KoW. Or, goddamn, even AoS. A new player sees "Wait, that's all the rules? Awesome! I can learn those!". He's motivated. That's how you get players into a game. X-Wing is the perfect example. Very short rules with a lot of extra rules but every rule is visible on a card and tells you exactly what it does. No looking up. You choose how difficult you want the game to be by starting with fewer points / ships / upgrades. Easy to pickup, very hard to master - I still fly my ships into rocks like a complete moron!
GW MUST simplify 40k. It's the only system they have left that keeps the ship afloat. Not being able to effectively interest fresh blood into the game is deadly.
Crablezworth wrote: Let's also separate aos "the miniatures" from aos "the core rules". While it may take months to say print a book a or box, it seems like when the game is 4 pages of rules it couldn't have possibly taken too long. I can believe a lot of the logistics took a while but the core game resembles something scrawled on a napkin. Moving away from ranked combat is one thing but this whole models moving by the tail thing is a bit much.
More like 400 pages of rules if you include all the warscrolls.
Even ignoring that, the idea that smaller product=doesn't take as long or is the result of laziness or what have you is silly. Especially in the field of writing, being succinct is much more of a skill than bashing out as many words as possible. In many niches, such as usage guides or manual writing, fewer words is the entire goal and challenge of the job.
Sigvatr, if 40k was as fun or easy as Calculus, I would have been able to get all my friends and family into it. Calculus is a succinct ruleset, basically just algebra with a few big concepts to learn. AOS and 40k involve a lot of memorization and flipping through books in a panic; they are more like Organic Chemistry.
Sigvatr wrote: It's impossible to get people into 40k. It's such a huge clusterfeck.
a) "Oh, you want to play this army? Cool! So you need this...and this...and this...and this...oh, you also need models! The books are just a few hundred dollars!"
b) "Okay, move this unit here. Wait, it has a special rule. Move twice. Okay, you can also run. But you cannot assault if you run. Wait, that's Dangerous Terrain. You have to roll. Take an armor save. Your unit has a special rule to reroll armor saves! Re-roll. Okay, you just moved a few inches. Ah, wait, I gforgot that it's special dangerous terrain. Here, you need to roll on that chart to see what it does. Let me look that up...yeah here it is. Okay, roll 2D6. Okay, it's a scary forest. You need to roll a Fear test. Fear is a special rule t- ah wait, you're immune to Fear because you're a Space Marine. Okay, go on. You can move another unit now."
Not a by the book example, but that is how so many situations in 40k went in 6th / 7th. Every rule has a special rule with a special rule. That isn't fun. That's annoying. It's busy work. Sure, it's fun for some who want to really get into a game and get the most out of it etc., but for the casual player or beginner, it's about as fun as doing calculus. Keep in mind that most of us are 40k veterans and already know a lot of rules by heart. Beginner's don't. We grew up with 40k and many rules stayed and did not have to be learned anew. A new player who wants to start with 40k in 7th is easily frustrated or overwhelmed.
Take X-Wing as an example. Or KoW. Or, goddamn, even AoS. A new player sees "Wait, that's all the rules? Awesome! I can learn those!". He's motivated. That's how you get players into a game. X-Wing is the perfect example. Very short rules with a lot of extra rules but every rule is visible on a card and tells you exactly what it does. No looking up. You choose how difficult you want the game to be by starting with fewer points / ships / upgrades. Easy to pickup, very hard to master - I still fly my ships into rocks like a complete moron!
GW MUST simplify 40k. It's the only system they have left that keeps the ship afloat. Not being able to effectively interest fresh blood into the game is deadly.
This.
I wouldn't mind a complicated rules set if the game was balanced throughout.4
I would rather have a core ruleset that can be squeezed into a £20 book (max if I have to pay for it and a Codex) as well as special rules in unit entries/codexes - than have it all in a £50 set of books of which two of them I don't even need for rules.
Crablezworth wrote: Let's also separate aos "the miniatures" from aos "the core rules". While it may take months to say print a book a or box, it seems like when the game is 4 pages of rules it couldn't have possibly taken too long. I can believe a lot of the logistics took a while but the core game resembles something scrawled on a napkin. Moving away from ranked combat is one thing but this whole models moving by the tail thing is a bit much.
More like 400 pages of rules if you include all the warscrolls.
Even ignoring that, the idea that smaller product=doesn't take as long or is the result of laziness or what have you is silly. Especially in the field of writing, being succinct is much more of a skill than bashing out as many words as possible. In many niches, such as usage guides or manual writing, fewer words is the entire goal and challenge of the job.
Age of Sigmar is a steaming pile of
Intelligent case.
By your own standards, that's genius level debating, surely?
Sigvatr wrote: It's impossible to get people into 40k. It's such a huge clusterfeck.
a) "Oh, you want to play this army? Cool! So you need this...and this...and this...and this...oh, you also need models! The books are just a few hundred dollars!"
b) "Okay, move this unit here. Wait, it has a special rule. Move twice. Okay, you can also run. But you cannot assault if you run. Wait, that's Dangerous Terrain. You have to roll. Take an armor save. Your unit has a special rule to reroll armor saves! Re-roll. Okay, you just moved a few inches. Ah, wait, I gforgot that it's special dangerous terrain. Here, you need to roll on that chart to see what it does. Let me look that up...yeah here it is. Okay, roll 2D6. Okay, it's a scary forest. You need to roll a Fear test. Fear is a special rule t- ah wait, you're immune to Fear because you're a Space Marine. Okay, go on. You can move another unit now."
Not a by the book example, but that is how so many situations in 40k went in 6th / 7th. Every rule has a special rule with a special rule. That isn't fun. That's annoying. It's busy work. Sure, it's fun for some who want to really get into a game and get the most out of it etc., but for the casual player or beginner, it's about as fun as doing calculus. Keep in mind that most of us are 40k veterans and already know a lot of rules by heart. Beginner's don't. We grew up with 40k and many rules stayed and did not have to be learned anew. A new player who wants to start with 40k in 7th is easily frustrated or overwhelmed.
Take X-Wing as an example. Or KoW. Or, goddamn, even AoS. A new player sees "Wait, that's all the rules? Awesome! I can learn those!". He's motivated. That's how you get players into a game. X-Wing is the perfect example. Very short rules with a lot of extra rules but every rule is visible on a card and tells you exactly what it does. No looking up. You choose how difficult you want the game to be by starting with fewer points / ships / upgrades. Easy to pickup, very hard to master - I still fly my ships into rocks like a complete moron!
GW MUST simplify 40k. It's the only system they have left that keeps the ship afloat. Not being able to effectively interest fresh blood into the game is deadly.
This.
I wouldn't mind a complicated rules set if the game was balanced throughout.4
I would rather have a core ruleset that can be squeezed into a £20 book (max if I have to pay for it and a Codex) as well as special rules in unit entries/codexes - than have it all in a £50 set of books of which two of them I don't even need for rules.
It is important to distinguish between complicated and complex and not mix the two.
X Wing is complex without being complicated (as is any other rule set you want to hold up as an example of well written rules for that matter.) It provides a great deal of depth without unnecessary flab.
40K is complicated without being particularly complex. There's remarkably little decision making needed, the game itself doesn't present the player with a huge variety of choices to make, but this lack of depth is buried under endless legions of USRs and special exceptions, giving it the appearance of complexity but in reality it's just a complicated mess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/23 02:05:28
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: 40K is complicated without being particularly complex. There's remarkably little decision making needed, the game itself doesn't present the player with a huge variety of choices to make, but this lack of depth is buried under endless legions of USRs and special exceptions, giving it the appearance of complexity but in reality it's just a complicated mess.
Adding to the complication is the one size fits all mindset put forth since 7th. I'm still baffled that someone at GW would think it's ok to whip out a knight in a 500pt game but, as you said, complicated isn't the same as complex. Culture of a gaming store or group can take over there, but it's just more unnecessary politics.
30k has similar hurdles to overcome, no digital support, up to book 6 now and fortifications still require a copy of the stronghold assault book. But at it's core it still feels much more like 5th and with the way the age of darkness force organization works, crazy is heavily limited and only available at about 2000pts and up, which is what 40k desperately needs IMO. Forgeworld also does a good job of separating "with opponents consent" stuff from the core game, something drastically needed to stem the tide of balkanization.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/03/23 05:15:22
I'd argue that its not and that its quite antiquated. Having to roll three times typically to cause damage has gone the way of the dodo for a good reason in every other ruleset. The all or nothing armour save mechanic, cover being an either/or save, identical movement range across all basic infantry and other unit types and the differences in vehicles and MCs all quickly add up to be a burdensome and clunky rule set that doesn't do a lot well. Let's not even get into the mish mash of battalion level mechanics and individual focused mechanics that confuse the game further.
40k isn't even that tactical. Movement doesn't mean much outside of being able to jet across to as many objectives as possible (in the equally ridiculous Maelstrom missions) because the tables are so small for the size of armies people play combined with long weapon ranges and typically little meaningful cover. 40k is a lot of target priority, knowing the ins and outs of the special rules and abilities of all units on the table, and remembering to capture some objectives along the way, depending on the mission type.
I've played numerous rulesets ranging from spaceship combat to modern warfare and other historicals, and 40k has always struck me as being the least tactically engaging but the most complicated.
So no, I don't think the core of 40k is pretty decent.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
So no, I don't think the core of 40k is pretty decent.
Neither do I. The rules have become increasingly incoherent and the game itself is trying to cram everything onto the tabletop.
The end result is that 40k is probably the most cluttered and needlessly complex wargame on the market, any game that is cluttered and complex is badly designed.
I'll probably never get into AoS or back into 40K, but I think the new Specialist Games are a very hopeful sign. If they can redo and properly support them without Dreadfleeting the rules, I'll certainly come back.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Elemental wrote: I'll probably never get into AoS or back into 40K, but I think the new Specialist Games are a very hopeful sign. If they can redo and properly support them without Dreadfleeting the rules, I'll certainly come back.
What does support require? Have they supported any of the other recent boxed games outside of the initial box release?
Ideally a boxed game should stand alone and need no support at all. The rules should be well-written, clear and balanced. Perhaps one set of FAQ and/or errata might be needed.
I'm glad to see that GW has started responding to players' requests. I also don't expect them to change every facet of the company overnight. We're seeing some good changes, so hopefully that's an indicator of what's to come. There's one thing I worry about, and that's GW's unwillingness to scrap the existing "finely detailed resin cast miniatures" (aka Finecast) models and start selling the plastic replacements. I have an Eldar army, but don't want to invest in some of the aspect squads and character models, because GW is trying to get rid of all of the resin stuff before they start selling the plastic replacements. GW knows the resin models are poor quality; that's why they've moved back to plastic for new character models, which is definitely a good thing. They just need to do the honorable thing and pull the resin off the store shelves/hangers so people who want to invest in the game can get good, quality product.
They're not switching characters to plastic because they know that Finecast is poor, Finecast was only ever a stop gap while everything was eventually migrated to plastic.
Regardless of their relative size in the industry, there's still only a finite number of man hours, amount of money and available release dates to get all this done, and while I agree there's some kits that really should have been prioritized and done by now, GW do have a long history of letting things fester for no discernible reason.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I don't have a source for this, but I remember many people talking about how, at the time of the Eldar Codex update in 2012 (2013?), Jes Goodwin said he had to choose between releasing the plastic Wraithguard or releasing the new plastic Jetbikes, which had been done for a long time. If plastic production spots are that limited, I don't expect to see new Aspects until the next Eldar codex update, alternatively in 2-3 years if GW have indeed left the traditional codex update model behind. Wraithguard and Jetbikes badly needed an update, so I can see prioritizing them before the Aspect Warriors which still are very good sculpts (Warp Spiders aside, although their problem is the limited posing and not the sculpts themselves).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/23 16:38:00
Crablezworth wrote: Let's also separate aos "the miniatures" from aos "the core rules". While it may take months to say print a book a or box, it seems like when the game is 4 pages of rules it couldn't have possibly taken too long. I can believe a lot of the logistics took a while but the core game resembles something scrawled on a napkin. Moving away from ranked combat is one thing but this whole models moving by the tail thing is a bit much.
More like 400 pages of rules if you include all the warscrolls.
Even ignoring that, the idea that smaller product=doesn't take as long or is the result of laziness or what have you is silly. Especially in the field of writing, being succinct is much more of a skill than bashing out as many words as possible. In many niches, such as usage guides or manual writing, fewer words is the entire goal and challenge of the job.
Age of Sigmar is a steaming pile of
Intelligent case.
I notice that you carefully trimmed off the actual case, to leave only the
So, you must really be a fan of Age of Sigmar! Trimming away everything that isn't was how they wrote the game!
The important part, and the part you left out, is that much of the time and work spent in writing a game is in balancing the rules.
Which Age of Sigmar left out.
How is that for the case?
GWmay still have some decent game designers, but the approach taken for Age of Sigmar was lazy and slapdash.
It may be salvageable - but my interest in making any such attempt?
Nonexistent.
The Auld Grump
*EDIT* In spite of Age of Sigmar, I find the recent changes to be for the better, by and large.
As has been stated by others, Rountree is likely not responsible for AoS - otherwise I would not be nearly so optimistic for GW's chances....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/23 17:03:31
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
GW lost the momentum and is now in reverse. Forum posting (especially ex-Dakka), google searches, inquiries at gaming shops, etc. are all in decline. I don't think this is recoverable for GW anymore, short of a truly explosive hostile takeover and sudden reversal of virtually all of their business practices around recruitment / retention. My entire group of friends still plays wargames, but none of us are the bitter guy posting on forums; we just stopped, there's no interest and engagement, and nothing GW can do would bring us back as customers unless we turn on the companies we are now buying from (Wyrd and FFG).
Sadly, I agree. Any changes made now is probably too little, too late.
As long as the network effect worked in favour for GW, they could get away with mishandling and squandering their IP and their fanbase. As soon as these advantages are lost, they need to compete with other game companies on the same terms.
All the positive changes made recently is just turning GW towards being more like what everyone else has done for years. Everything now hinges on 40K, and unless they make a drastic change to the game, it's fanbase will slowly wither away. And I doubt they have the guts, the willingness, or indeed the ability, to go through with something like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/23 17:14:31
GW lost the momentum and is now in reverse. Forum posting (especially ex-Dakka), google searches, inquiries at gaming shops, etc. are all in decline. I don't think this is recoverable for GW anymore, short of a truly explosive hostile takeover and sudden reversal of virtually all of their business practices around recruitment / retention. My entire group of friends still plays wargames, but none of us are the bitter guy posting on forums; we just stopped, there's no interest and engagement, and nothing GW can do would bring us back as customers unless we turn on the companies we are now buying from (Wyrd and FFG).
Sadly, I agree. Any changes made now is probably too little, too late.
As long as the network effect worked in favour for GW, they could get away with mishandling and squandering their IP and their fanbase. As soon as these advantages are lost, they need to compete with other game companies on the same terms.
All the positive changes made recently is just turning GW towards being more like what everyone else has done for years. Everything now hinges on 40K, and unless they make a drastic change to the game, it's fanbase will slowly wither away. And I doubt they have the guts, the willingness, or indeed the ability, to go through with something like that.
I agree with everything but one point here - I have absolutely no doubt that GW has the guts and the willingness to turn 40k on its head, if it comes to that. They've done it to FB when they introduced AoS, and I don't think they'll even stop for a second if they feel that 40k needs to change into the Age of the Emprah.
However, much like you, I do doubt that will have the ability to do it properly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/23 17:28:21
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Sigvatr wrote: It's impossible to get people into 40k. It's such a huge clusterfeck.
a) "Oh, you want to play this army? Cool! So you need this...and this...and this...and this...oh, you also need models! The books are just a few hundred dollars!"
This!
After skipping 6th I stepped back into 7th to play some pickup games with a friend who is getting his nephews into gaming. The retail price for the rulebook and the two ork codexes came to $160. I can afford to play 40K, but it's just not worth it anymore.
Sigvatr wrote: It's impossible to get people into 40k. It's such a huge clusterfeck.
a) "Oh, you want to play this army? Cool! So you need this...and this...and this...and this...oh, you also need models! The books are just a few hundred dollars!"
This!
After skipping 6th I stepped back into 7th to play some pickup games with a friend who is getting his nephews into gaming. The retail price for the rulebook and the two ork codexes came to $160. I can afford to play 40K, but it's just not worth it anymore.
Indeed. I don't care what anyone says, it's great that someone can pick up a box of AoS models and start the hobby, not feel like they need to go down a $200 checklist just for the rules.
"Death is my meat, terror my wine." - Unknown Dark Eldar Archon
I'm still baffled that someone at GW would think it's ok to whip out a knight in a 500pt game but, as you said, complicated isn't the same as complex. Culture of a gaming store or group can take over there, but it's just more unnecessary politics.
If they had working rules and stats then a 500 points knight vs infantry battle could be fun on a small table and narratively fulfilling (think: guerrilla takedown of a big beast). Of course for that you would need rules where the knight would have many detailed mechanics (more like two or three units on one base) and the possibility for individual systems to break while the infantry hides in the terrain around it and both sides try to target weaknesses while either surviving the attack or managing to dismantle the knight.
The battle could be about the knight trying to maneuver in a favourable position while adjusting systems (weapons, shields, movement range, whatever) while the infantry would have to try to stay out of the knights firing arcs (or get vaporized) and try to dismantle it piece by piece. Just add specific missions and a variety of useful options for both sides and you have a game where people can buy more to explore sideways upgrades but still have a real game for (GW) cheap. And if you want a bigger fight add another knight on one side and more infantry (and bikes or other smaller vehicles) on the other and things get a bit more interesting for both sides. But that type of skirmish game wouldn't need three knights on each side, plus a few tanks, and shovels full of infantry. :/
GW lost the momentum and is now in reverse. Forum posting (especially ex-Dakka), google searches, inquiries at gaming shops, etc. are all in decline. I don't think this is recoverable for GW anymore, short of a truly explosive hostile takeover and sudden reversal of virtually all of their business practices around recruitment / retention. My entire group of friends still plays wargames, but none of us are the bitter guy posting on forums; we just stopped, there's no interest and engagement, and nothing GW can do would bring us back as customers unless we turn on the companies we are now buying from (Wyrd and FFG).
Sadly, I agree. Any changes made now is probably too little, too late.
As long as the network effect worked in favour for GW, they could get away with mishandling and squandering their IP and their fanbase. As soon as these advantages are lost, they need to compete with other game companies on the same terms.
All the positive changes made recently is just turning GW towards being more like what everyone else has done for years. Everything now hinges on 40K, and unless they make a drastic change to the game, it's fanbase will slowly wither away. And I doubt they have the guts, the willingness, or indeed the ability, to go through with something like that.
I agree with everything but one point here - I have absolutely no doubt that GW has the guts and the willingness to turn 40k on its head, if it comes to that. They've done it to FB when they introduced AoS, and I don't think they'll even stop for a second if they feel that 40k needs to change into the Age of the Emprah.
However, much like you, I do doubt that will have the ability to do it properly.
You got a point
AoS might prove they got the guts, but it goes against them having the ability to create a decen system.
Reinholt wrote: I don't think this is recoverable for GW anymore
I don't necessarily agree. They are rapidly losing market share and I very much doubt that any single company will ever be able to monopolise the Wargaming market like GW did in the 90s/00s; they also have a lot of burnt bridges to mend with former customers and some crippling issues with their products and structure.
However they are still the biggest name in wargaming and they have a lot of brand recognition outside this fairly niche world. It would take some truly radical changes but GW could still come out on top. I don't think they will and while the current positive steps are a good sign they are things that have been asked for by their customers for years and even so they are peripheral to the main reasons for GW's decline; poor rules, poor value for money and a very high entry cost. On the other hand maybe more profound changes have already been planned, time will tell as always.
At this stage I suspect that GW will improve enough to stay alive but they will inevitably be eclipsed by other, better, companies who already provide superior products. Unless they get bought out of course (which may or may not be good for 40K).
I'd argue that its not and that its quite antiquated. Having to roll three times typically to cause damage has gone the way of the dodo for a good reason in every other ruleset. The all or nothing armour save mechanic, cover being an either/or save, identical movement range across all basic infantry and other unit types and the differences in vehicles and MCs all quickly add up to be a burdensome and clunky rule set that doesn't do a lot well. Let's not even get into the mish mash of battalion level mechanics and individual focused mechanics that confuse the game further.
40k isn't even that tactical. Movement doesn't mean much outside of being able to jet across to as many objectives as possible (in the equally ridiculous Maelstrom missions) because the tables are so small for the size of armies people play combined with long weapon ranges and typically little meaningful cover. 40k is a lot of target priority, knowing the ins and outs of the special rules and abilities of all units on the table, and remembering to capture some objectives along the way, depending on the mission type.
I've played numerous rulesets ranging from spaceship combat to modern warfare and other historicals, and 40k has always struck me as being the least tactically engaging but the most complicated.
So no, I don't think the core of 40k is pretty decent.
Agree with this ^
On top of the mess listed above we have the huge imbalances. So is GW on the right track? As a tyranid player my 6th ed nid dex is crap (and was crap the day released after 4 yours of the 5th ed nid dex garbage) and was followed by dataslates, some new unneeded units (such as the toxicrene/malceptor, not the pod, which was removed and then brought back with an expensive kit), rather than fix the subpar units/biomorphs, followed by supplements and the need for FW units such as the malanthrope. The rules are spread all over and the cost for all the rules is absurd and it still only provides a mediocre army with practically a monobuild (flyrant spam). So ask me again when a 7th ed nid dex is released where it is similar to Eldar (not the OP parts but from Eldar players I have heard many times that almost everything in the dex is a decent choice). When I can buy one dex at a reasonable price and use all my models/options (because effort was put in the dex to make it a good product - not an OP one), models that I spent a fortune on (but most sit on the shelf and collect dust) to try to make my army work from 4th to 5th, and then 5th to 6th, etc, then GW may be on the right track!
I used to think of myself as a painter first, gamer second. Because I disliked the protracted arguments over bad rules, and the general 4 hours required for a game (setup and cleanup have to be taken into account). Most of my friends have kids, I run a business, we can't commit to that level anymore.
Then I committed the heresy of buying prepainted miniatures. And the game was much better. Look at that. With a good ruleset, with comparatively few miniatures on the table, I can have a lot more fun *with people* instead of at my painting station. More is not necessarily best. Though if it is for you, good on you.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
Mathieu Raymond wrote: More is not necessarily best. Though if it is for you, good on you.
Nailed it. Although it suits GW just fine to push the big kits and in turn the scale of the game, it doesn't help us, the people that can't invest more than 4 hours to playing a game. I can see a lot of people leaving 40k simply because everyone they ask for a game wants to play 3000pts.
I think it depends on who you ask whether gdub is on the right track.
They've done well introducing a few really nice 1 time boardgames with models you can play in their other games.
I think the models in the starter sets are beautiful (AoS and 40k)
but ask a Warhammer Fantasy player how he feels. Ask an Ork player how he feels about having to rebuy the same expansion book, rather then receive some kind of errata.
Once you get past starter games and board games, how you feel really depends on what faction you play. I honestly like the whole 7th ed. maelstrom of war, with the cards. I think its fun.
The balance of the main game between armies (40k) is what stinks.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
