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Unlike the interdenominational and fictional fears of things like chaos, and the spooky/evil/obvious harm you see in orks, necrons, and nids, I see tau as being a kind of evil that's far more... real. See, unlike the imp of man, who say that through regression and a death to progress harm is done, with tau, you see something far more perturbing, especially if like me, you're a fan of individualism and empowerment of the individual, as well as the whole enlightenment philosophy that is the foundation of much of the american revolution's ideals, the ideas shown in tau society are spooky to say the least. Unlike the imperium of man where the single man is often thrown to the fire, and the harm is shown as obvious, in the tau empire, the enslavement of the small man for the greater cause is shown as the key to prosperity for all, including the slave. This is horrifying to me, the idea that not questioning and following blindly to those in charge, and that never trying to protect yourself from those above you are the key universal prosperity.

you see, the horror in tau for me isn't that tau are doing harm, it's that they're circumventing harm by disregarding the ideals I find integral to my culture.

american afraid of commies. what news

In all seriousness though, the IoM is equally fascist and anti-individualism. Only rogue traders, smugglers and the like can live relatively individual lives. Pretty much everyone else is slaving away for the higher ups at abysmal pay. Any word...hell, even thought against the Imperial Cult and the Emprah is met with execution. The IoM is paranoid of heresy and corruption, they're the darkest of Middle Ages and Inquisition in a sci-fi setting.

Chaos doesnt really offer freedom either, because you usually end up becoming the slave of one of the Big Four. Only those who venerate Chaos Undivided have some modicum of self left in them, and perhaps factions like the Red Corsairs who dont really venerate Chaos (correct me if I am wrong) and are simply outlaws, raiders and pirates have some modicum of freedom.

Truth be told, freedom, small government and libertarianism is very Somalia-ish in the 40k universe as well, mostly stuff like Dark Eldar, Exodites and Pirates.

 Sir Arun wrote:
american afraid of commies. what news

I'm actually a socialist who thinks the government should curb business as business has grown to the point where I can control the people just as much as a totalitarian state can. That's beside the point though. I think government's job should be to keep us safe and to keep us as free as possible at the same time. That's the exact opposite of how tau work. The government isn't for the people, the people are for the government.

We dont know how anti-individualist the Tau really are, though. They didnt put a great effort in waging war against the traitors of the Farsight Enclave after all, and we have little source material telling us how the Tau deal with those among themselves who question the Greater Good. Perhaps criticism and discussion is allowed, as long as it is constructive and can actually help further the goal of the Greater Good in the long run. I havent read any lore of Tau torturing or executing people, only that they kill enemies who refuse to surrender and join the Greater Good. But remember there was a lot of lore in the 3rd ed Tau codex about a Space Marine (Imperial Fist I think) and retinue visiting a Tau core world...there was like a big artwork of it spanning two pages. They remained loyal to the Emperor and were allowed diplomatic visit.

The Imperium does the same thing to the normal human if you think about it, except they're not commies.

They're both 'people for the state' instead of 'a state for the people'.

I'd still be more afraid of deldar and nids than of space-hooved-fish-reds ...

40k is a dystopian nightmare. All the bad guys have won ages ago.
There is not a single faction that is not ruled by them.

Eldar = selfish racists
IoM = fascists
Chaos = derp. kill. mutate. pestilence. death by snu-snu and sonic waves
Nids = om nom nom
Cron = harvest the living
Ork = Wez love fightin
Tau = Join or die
DEldar = torture and pain are fun but we must hide from she who thirsts

Grimdark wrote:
The Imperium does the same thing to the normal human if you think about it, except they're not commies.

They're both 'people for the state' instead of 'a state for the people'.

I'd still be more afraid of deldar and nids than of space-hooved-fish-reds ...

I realize this, my point is that tau are more spooky because for them it actually makes it better for people.

Also nids aren't real, so they're not as spooky to me as a parable against the effectiveness of individualism in society.

Orkz iz da only free unz, all dem 'umies and wat don' got any freedomz to go lootin' and fightin' like wez do.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Orkz iz da only free unz, all dem 'umies and wat don' got any freedomz to go lootin' and fightin' like wez do.

Youz doez as da Boss sez. If ya fink ya can do sumfin else da Boss and his Nobs iz gonna give ya a proppa rumblin. Hez da sickest bloke ull ever meet & hez nicked 300 bitz from da mek store. hez trained in urban fitin’ & hez the strongest git in tha entire Waagh! yer nothin to em but a cheeky lil grot w/ a blunt choppa & fake flash. he'll waste you and smash a shoota oer yer head boy. ya fink you can run ya gabber at him? hez callin hiz boyz rite now preparin for a proper rumble. tha rumble thatll make ur nan sore jus hearin about it.

Farsight Enclaves is the only known democracy in the Warhammer 40k fiction. Which is all about individual freedom. I'll see you in the Enclaves. Even if the FSE didn't exist I would go to the TE anyways just due to the higher standards of living. Also as much as everyone is helping each other so the people at the top have lots the people at the bottom have lots.. Kroot have access to advanced technology and homes on tau worlds specifically tailored to their biology. So unlike say Soviet Union where it didn't work in the TE its working quite fine. It also helps its easy to meet the needs of everyone with their hyper advanced tech so there is inherently much less greed by nature. The Tau and FSE is capable of insane transforming, geoengineering, and farming techniques far beyond anything the IoM is even capable of thinking of. The IoM produces more due to its size, but for the Tau's small galactic space poor is unheard of and Tau rations are typically depicted as stuff that looks at least as good as stuff from today if not a little better and that's for your average Tau Firewarrior grunt who isn't exactly eating their prized foods.

One of the books details a human auxiliary talking about how one of his buddies has his own home, children and wife on a tau world, and another tells of Tau firecast defending human defectors from space-marine slaughter. People automatically think of the worst aspects of the Tau when they bring them up, but fail to consider that most bad thing about the Tau are merely rumours (most of them from people who don't like that there *might* be good guys in the galaxy)

So the imperium blatantly disregards the needs of most individuals and exploit them for the desires of a rich and power.ful For the Tau, the ethereal cast enslave their entire race, and coerce many other races in order to achieve their aims and goals. I don't see how those two things are really too different or why the Tau version is worse?

The Inperium may seem like a big bad dictatorship but in reality they are far more "greater good" than Tau will ever be. The IOM recognises the need for sacrifice, that cutting off your hand to save your arm is much better than losing both arms and a toe. The Tau will run and retreat to preserve individual lives but that could cost them wars. The IoM sacrifices lives so that the greater good, the Imperium, survives.

Tau society, like communism, tricks you into thinking you are worth something, so that you are more likely to obey. The leader comes along and says "you're very important to us and you need to do this for the good of the many." Lies. Whereas the Imperium is truthful in "we're sending you in, you are going to die, but your sacrifice will buy us time to evacuate everyone and crush these mofos with an Astartes strikeforce, so take pride in your sacrifice."

Actually, in fluff both factions do the exact same thing.

They behave as honorable/smart/competent as needed by the plot.

Which usually coincides with the plastic crack they need to sell.

Which is why I never take GW fluff too seriously.

Unquietemu wrote:
One of the books details a human auxiliary talking about how one of his buddies has his own home, children and wife on a tau world, and another tells of Tau firecast defending human defectors from space-marine slaughter. People automatically think of the worst aspects of the Tau when they bring them up, but fail to consider that most bad thing about the Tau are merely rumours (most of them from people who don't like that there *might* be good guys in the galaxy)

Did they also detail how that wife was assigned to him due to his genetic compatibility with her? Or that those children were conceived on a strict schedule? Slavery in comfort is slavery none-the-less. The Farsight Enclaves aren't so bad, though. Good thing Farsight took the red pill.

 Deadshot wrote:
The Inperium may seem like a big bad dictatorship but in reality they are far more "greater good" than Tau will ever be. The IOM recognises the need for sacrifice, that cutting off your hand to save your arm is much better than losing both arms and a toe. The Tau will run and retreat to preserve individual lives but that could cost them wars. The IoM sacrifices lives so that the greater good, the Imperium, survives.

Tau society, like communism, tricks you into thinking you are worth something, so that you are more likely to obey. The leader comes along and says "you're very important to us and you need to do this for the good of the many." Lies. Whereas the Imperium is truthful in "we're sending you in, you are going to die, but your sacrifice will buy us time to evacuate everyone and crush these mofos with an Astartes strikeforce, so take pride in your sacrifice."

Tau society is probably closer to Fascism than Communism considering the entire Tau Empire is about expansion and proliferation of the Tau race across the stars. Tau don't adhere to the concept that everyone is equal but each caste is separate and have their individual duty to the collective whole. The Ethereal caste is clearly considered superior to the standard Tau and the lose of an Ethereal is considered especially devastating compared to the lose of a member of leadership in other factions. There is no info on Tau economics which is a more central part of a communist society but considering Tau has a merchant class (and classes in general) seems to not really fit with the communist ideology.

The Tau are fine with individual sacrifice if its considered to the benefit of the Greater Good. Needless waste of Tau life and resources are to be avoided and its something the Tau strive to avoid putting themselves into that situation. Tau generally prefer to retreat when they can't defend a location and attack when they have a better set of circumstances to win the battle. Tau aren't incapable of holding a critical position but generally will give up ground if it means preserving their war effort instead of fighting at a disadvantage. Tau have far less numbers and resources compared to the vast IoM so suffering heavy loses is far more costly to the Tau war effort than the IoM. Tau combat doctrines differ but they all generally are about utilizing force multipliers to gain the advantage and achieve decisive and efficient victories.

Unquietemu wrote:
One of the books details a human auxiliary talking about how one of his buddies has his own home, children and wife on a tau world, and another tells of Tau firecast defending human defectors from space-marine slaughter. People automatically think of the worst aspects of the Tau when they bring them up, but fail to consider that most bad thing about the Tau are merely rumours (most of them from people who don't like that there *might* be good guys in the galaxy)

Mainly because the background universe is all about there *not* being good guys, which is what rubs people raw about Tau quite a bit. There aren't supposed to be good guys. This is made pretty explicitly clear in the opening of every 40k rulebook.

"Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

That is the 40k universe, "good guys" don't fit in, and the Tau are far more interesting with their darker aspects. The whole "we'll bomb you until you join the greater good...and we may or may not be using some underhanded means to control our vassal races" makes them far more fitting than just being the goody-two-shoes.

 Vaktathi wrote:
...and we may or may not be using some underhanded means to control our vassal races" makes them far more fitting than just being the goody-two-shoes.

Exactly lol ... is it slavery if everyone has been drugged into thinking they are absolutely happy and content? All about perspective

The Tau do want what is best for you. But they have to look at the greater picture. They don't want what's best for you specifically as an individual. It's the greater good they're on about.

They do want what's best for you, but you don't get a say in what that is.

All things considered, their type of slavery might be the best option you'll get in the galaxy, and might be the most open to a natural reform into something more ... free, if this war ever ends.

 Purifier wrote:


All things considered, their type of slavery might be the best option you'll get in the galaxy

Well, that's probably Ultramar. Or potentially another one of the more civilized Space Marine Homeworlds that exist outside direct Imperial control. Ultramar is supposed to be an example of what The Emperor/Guilliman's initial vision of the Imperium was supposed to look like before short-sighted, greedy humans took over.

The Tau are simply a dystopic nightmare of social conditioning and control through pervasive propaganda and eugenics. In any other universe, they'd be villains, lol.

 Sir Arun wrote:
american afraid of commies. what news

In all seriousness though, the IoM is equally fascist and anti-individualism. Only rogue traders, smugglers and the like can live relatively individual lives. Pretty much everyone else is slaving away for the higher ups at abysmal pay.

Sounds basically like American ideals to me! That's what the Republicans are all about, right?

My personal dislike of the Tau artwork and style in the 40K universe aside, their Orwellian style dystopian society is well written and a clear nod to Huxley's Brave New World which is one of my favourite books.

The only real 'good' guys in my view are the orks and tyranids because their only motivation is having a good old fashioned brawl and munchies respectively - it's not deliberate malevolence (and it's not the Orks fault dem 'umies are fragile play thingz)

fluff wise if I had to live in any society (as a member of that race or a human within said race) in the 40k universe it would hands down be tau. (this is assuming you are a regular average member of society, not the head of the inquisition or some over-privileged high-born. even their lowly foot soldiers are valued as evidenced by their transports and tactics. outside the Eldar they care the most that their warriors actually make it out of combat alive.

Thinking about it that way G00fy as a standard member of society, I'd go for a rogue trader - practical freedom (one of the lesser ones though, not a fancy lord or some-such). Live out my Firefly fantasy.

Asura Varuna wrote:
So the imperium blatantly disregards the needs of most individuals and exploit them for the desires of a rich and power.ful For the Tau, the ethereal cast enslave their entire race, and coerce many other races in order to achieve their aims and goals. I don't see how those two things are really too different or why the Tau version is worse?

The Tau are brainwashing their citizenry to believe it. The Imperium only asks for lip-service.

Personally, I think the Kroot are just biding their time till they can eat the Ethereals en masse.

If I ever decide to have a Tau army, I'm going to convert up an extremely fat Kroot shaper to count as an Ethereal.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Personally, I think the Kroot are just biding their time till they can eat the Ethereals en masse.

If I ever decide to have a Tau army, I'm going to convert up an extremely fat Kroot shaper to count as an Ethereal.

Nice. +1

 G00fySmiley wrote:
fluff wise if I had to live in any society (as a member of that race or a human within said race) in the 40k universe it would hands down be tau. (this is assuming you are a regular average member of society, not the head of the inquisition or some over-privileged high-born. even their lowly foot soldiers are valued as evidenced by their transports and tactics. outside the Eldar they care the most that their warriors actually make it out of combat alive.

I think 1d4chan put it best, the fact that an underhanded totalitarian dystopia is preferable to the point of being seen as the "good guys" is a credit to the sheer hopelessness of the 40k universe. That in itself is fantastic.

Seems more reflective of India's old caste system and Hindu principles than communism, but ya know, any group collaboration for society is de facto communism to Muricans