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2016/04/02 10:32:17
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
If you don't agree with that, we will politely agree to disagree. :-))
I'll disagree with your disagreement
As a customer, my introduction to the hobby were my friends, not the guy behind the counter. Games Workshop smartly cross-pollinated their miniatures with their (at the time) various game systems -- and their miniatures were *good*. Since we were teens, we *did* meet in each other's houses, since you could get there by bike, and didn't need a car. The FLGS was like the candy shop, except games were *expensive*. We weren't cheap and looking for discounts, we *didn't have any money* because we didn't have jobs (something about studying to get into college or something) and these games cost *much* more than the mainstream stuff.
But that was then. I'm curious *now* if gamers (and that also means kids and teenagers) entering the hobby really depend on the FLGS as much as some say they do. I've read plenty of examples of gamers who don't have a FLGS, or only have an LGS.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
If you don't agree with that, we will politely agree to disagree. :-)
Nonsense, in my experience. I got into wargaming because my Mum's friend had kids who looked after me while they socialised and who were into wargaming, I then got a friend into it, and between us two more, and only then after having already made several purchases did we actually use the facilities/services of the local GW, even after which we still spent most of our gaming time at each others' houses or at the school's wargaming club.. An FLGS didn't even exist in this city until a few years ago, it was GW store or nothing, yet there are four large clubs that cater to just wargaming, and a few more more which do a mix of wargaming, boardgames, cardgames, and RPGs.
FLGS have played a role in some people's entry into the hobby, but the fact wargaming exists just about everywhere, even places with no stores at all, plus my own anecdotal experience(and that of others I've spoken to over the years, who almost all came into it via friends or family) leads me to think that most people come to wargaming through word of mouth, not by randomly stumbling into a store, and given the internet is now a thing that exists combined with the fact people have been gaming without using stores all over Europe for decades, the assertion that we needFLGS for the hobby to survive is farcical.
The idea that people who don't even use FLGS should have to pay higher prices to support failing businesses that have nothing to do with them or their hobby is beyond farcical, it's insulting.
Besides which, it's a wee tiny bit rich for yourselves to be taking this line considering your use of Kickstarter - or is it only okay to take advantage of aspects of the internet that screw over FLGS when companies do it not consumers?
As for the gaming in house and hosting 50 people in a garage or a house, I'm not saying it's not doable but is easier said than done.
And things in Germany might be different but if I ever went to one of the local churches and asked them to stage an event with toy soldiers shooting arrows and butchering each other... yeah, priest would most probably look at me like I owed him money (or some type of similar glance)
Unless your local church is affiliated with the Westboro Baptists, then you'll probably be fine providing you don't bill the club night as "Wargaming and Satan Worship - Fun for all the family!".
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2016/04/02 11:08:52
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential. If you don't agree with that, we will politely agree to disagree. :-)
Friends are what get people in the hobby, not LGS. I don't think someone just walks by a LGS and goes inside (keep in mind that most GS don't have minis on display viewable from the outside), see a miniature game and thinks "Hey, I'm going to immediately buy a few miniatures!". You go show it to a friend, you buy a starter together and start playing. What happens nowadays, very often, isn't that thing. It's people seeing something, then looking up reviews and battle reports on YouTube to get a better idea of the game, then deciding whether to get it or not.
We currently are at max capacity, but when we started out, it was just telling friends about it. Invitem them over, a beer or two go along quite well, play a game or two, introduce them, hooked.
My main point is: the players decide, must decide, where they want their hobby to be. It's in their hands. It's how the club movement started - people wanted to play with whoever they want, where they want, what they want. LGS aren't necessary to hook new players, it's players looking for more themselves
What PP now does essentially is trying to bail bad businesses out. They invest a LOT of money (i.e. by alienating customers and thus losing out on cash) in a shrinking and oldy times business. It's like trying to keep a ship from sinking with a bucket.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/02 11:10:29
The only place I play is my local gaming club; it brings in players from within about 20 miles from all the small towns and villages and we play a wide range of table and board games.
Where I used to live there were 2 LGC's within walking distance, one with play space, the other without. I bought some airbrush masking tape in one once when I ran out in the middle of painting but otherwise never went into or purchased anything in either
I originally got into 40k through buying the 2nd edition starter from Argos and while growing up with my parents would pop into the local GW whenever we went into the nearest town, though only ever played in there once (and didn't really like it).
All my purchases are online either direct from manufacturers (Hasslefree, Reaper, Scibor, etc), or from online stores (Element Games for 40k)
Yodhrin wrote: An FLGS didn't even exist in this city until a few years ago, it was GW store or nothing, yet there are four large clubs that cater to just wargaming, and a few more more which do a mix of wargaming, boardgames, cardgames, and RPGs.
Four large clubs, only for wargaming? Yes, in the UK there are these large clubs you speak of (and probably in some other countries too), not in the majority of the countries worldwide in my knowledge.
The idea that people who don't even use FLGS should have to pay higher prices to support failing businesses that have nothing to do with them or their hobby is beyond farcical, it's insulting.
Nowhere did I say that they must pay higher prices.
I also said the community needs both (online and B&M).
Besides which, it's a wee tiny bit rich for yourselves to be taking this line considering your use of Kickstarter - or is it only okay to take advantage of aspects of the internet that screw over FLGS when companies do it not consumers?
Just to make it clear I don't endorse PPs decision (if you read my first post I initially thought it a hoax!). What we do want is FLGSs to be viable; they certainly don't depend on us for that, we have no illusions :-)
Rest is spoilered because this thread is about PP decision and not about Shieldwolf or KickStarter.
Spoiler:
I disagree with what you wrote above concerning Kickstarter, we only started using KS last year and have funded two crowdfunding campaigns only in order to augment the range and exposure (which ultimately will benefit FLGSs who carry our line). These products would have never seen the light of day had it not been for us and the backers who (with everyones wallets involved) now boast the best Mammoth, Wyvern, lions and twin-headed Dragon worldwide, and soon the best norse army (female too), again, worldwide! For the record we are very pleased we decided to go down this route since it allows us to grow and meet market's needs without having to wait years for it.
I comprehend the reason why you wrote that because you are saying we sold product instead of allowing it to be sold by the FLGSs, but bear with me for a minute. You are saying FLGSs lost sales/received damage from us because some people purchased via our KS items they are already carrying, correct? Well, we do not see it the same way. The "sales" they lost is a very small price to pay for what we would like them to sell in the future. You see, the faster more people experience our current quality in product and service, the larger the chances more will be interested to purchase, which will inevitably drive a portion of them towards the FLGS (who receive a hefty yet viable discount from us) and thus will augment the revenue these stores get.
We don't interfere with sales from FLGSs, we do not dictate their discounts and they are free to do as they please. Making our range more known to the public will ultimately help them out. We also do not (and will not) treat KS as a pre-sale stand (we have already proved that by only recently restricting access to a large part of our range during the last KS, even though it was requested by a number of backers).
Also, we have already sponsored and keep sponsoring various events on FLGSs, while we have never sponsored the "on-line only" retailers (wouldn't even know how but I don't care). We have even sponsored events with Sci-fi, in which we have zero interest! Imagine that, Shieldwolf who is no "Giant" doing something like that... :-)
One last thing; we have seen a number of fire sales/discounts due to Black Friday, celebrating 5 years existence, celebrating holidays, celebrating Mary Poppins, whatever. The thing is, these discount directly from the source. Now I am not saying we might not do it ourselves at some point, but we are fighting not to, and even if we do at some point it will be very limited. Do you know how many fire-sales or any of this type of celebrations we have done all these years? I do. None. Not a single discounted period ever e.g. "We now offer all of our Araves range at -20%, offer lasts till X date". That should also speak by itself about our Policies. :-D
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/02 12:51:24
Yeah, I didn't get into the hobby because of a store; I got into it because my dad had tons of model kits and board games (notably Battletech, which got me liking big robots) and that then that created a good environment for the spark of a Space Marine and Titans when my friend's brother introduced me to them. Thus, I was already doing "hobby" things for years before I even knew where a gaming store was in this area.
What is key for the growth of a line is people playing it and letting other people know about it which is now vastly simpler via social media. The FLGS isn't really the thing that's doing that, the people that play there are. Yes, having an established and identified venue for things helps greatly, especially in areas with lots of population turnover, but it is not a requirement in the way that many FLGS dearly wish it was.
When I got back into the hobby after college I was buying stuff like mad (ok, that hasn't changed) but all I would do is walk into a store, grab items from the shelf and then buy them. As Manchu put it, if the cost of MSRP includes services provided by the retailer, then they were getting money for nothing because for the most part they were not providing any service at all. I knew what I wanted, how much of it I wanted, and was keenly disinterested in anything else. Even today that's largely the case and probably more so given that I haven't gamed in a store for nearly 12 years.
That's not to say I'm anti-FLGS; I find a couple of them in my area to be great to go into and I do try to buy the small things there when I can, or if they happen to have something I'm after in stock. However, not even the good ones are willing to work out any deals on large orders so when I know I want quantity or it's not going to be locally available, then I go online. That's their choice to not chase the dollars on offer though so I don't feel bad in the slightest.
2016/04/02 13:07:07
Subject: Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
I'm torn. On the one hand, at least it's not AS bad as some other companies' policies because online retailers are still allowed to sell PP stuff and use the shopping cart and everything, and I am in favor of protecting the interests of FLGSs.
I, personally, may not have gotten into miniature gaming because of FLGS, but I absolutely continued playing because of them as most of the friends I played with either moved or lost interest, so for me (and many, many others) there is inherent value in FLGS existing.
But, generally, I'm not a huge fan of businesses telling other businesses how their products can be sold (though I suppose this is standard practice in many industries? I hear that, for example, Jordan shoes forbids retailers form advertising their products at discounts above a certain percentage, though they can still sell them at huge discounts as long as they don't advertise them).
Overall, this doesn't affect my opinion of PP much, but FFG and GW's online sales policies didn't affect my opinion of them much either (my opinions of those companies are what they are for lots of other reasons).
EDIT: Not being clear about what constitutes too deep of a discount, however, is very bad.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/04/02 13:22:35
2016/04/02 13:27:23
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
Yodhrin wrote: An FLGS didn't even exist in this city until a few years ago, it was GW store or nothing, yet there are four large clubs that cater to just wargaming, and a few more more which do a mix of wargaming, boardgames, cardgames, and RPGs.
Four large clubs, only for wargaming? Yes, in the UK there are these large clubs you speak of (and probably in some other countries too), not in the majority of the countries worldwide in my knowledge.
And yet just a few posts up there is someone from Germany telling you the exact same thing; clubs like that exist all over Europe, from what I've seen there's usually at least one in any major population centre, but regardless - your assertion is that FLGS are necessary for a healthy wargaming community, but if big communities can form and sustain themselves almost entirely using the gaming club model, that's demonstrably incorrect, what's necessary is a few folk willing to give up a little of their own hobby time to get the community going.
Just because something doesn't exist now doesn't mean it can't exist, or that whatever exists in its place is superior or even just as good.
The idea that people who don't even use FLGS should have to pay higher prices to support failing businesses that have nothing to do with them or their hobby is beyond farcical, it's insulting.
Nowhere did I say that they must pay higher prices.
I also said the community needs both (online and B&M).
But PP, GW and others are saying we must pay higher prices. They are cracking down on discounters who took advantage of the cost savings of the internet and of not providing a physical high-street retail location to give those of us who have no need of a physical high-street retail location or its services a better price, explicitly to prop up failing B&M stores that we don't use and don't benefit from.
Besides which, it's a wee tiny bit rich for yourselves to be taking this line considering your use of Kickstarter - or is it only okay to take advantage of aspects of the internet that screw over FLGS when companies do it not consumers?
Just to make it clear I don't endorse PPs decision (if you read my first post I initially thought it a hoax!). What we do want is FLGSs to be viable; they certainly don't depend on us for that, we have no illusions :-)
Rest is spoilered because this thread is about PP decision and not about Shieldwolf or KickStarter.
Spoiler:
I disagree with what you wrote above concerning Kickstarter, we only started using KS last year and have funded two crowdfunding campaigns only in order to augment the range and exposure (which ultimately will benefit FLGSs who carry our line). These products would have never seen the light of day had it not been for us and the backers who (with everyones wallets involved) now boast the best Mammoth, Wyvern, lions and twin-headed Dragon worldwide, and soon the best norse army (female too), again, worldwide! For the record we are very pleased we decided to go down this route since it allows us to grow and meet market's needs without having to wait years for it.
I comprehend the reason why you wrote that because you are saying we sold product instead of allowing it to be sold by the FLGSs, but bear with me for a minute. You are saying FLGSs lost sales/received damage from us because some people purchased via our KS items they are already carrying, correct? Well, we do not see it the same way. The "sales" they lost is a very small price to pay for what we would like them to sell in the future. You see, the faster more people experience our current quality in product and service, the larger the chances more will be interested to purchase, which will inevitably drive a portion of them towards the FLGS (who receive a hefty yet viable discount from us) and thus will augment the revenue these stores get.
We don't interfere with sales from FLGSs, we do not dictate their discounts and they are free to do as they please. Making our range more known to the public will ultimately help them out. We also do not (and will not) treat KS as a pre-sale stand (we have already proved that by only recently restricting access to a large part of our range during the last KS, even though it was requested by a number of backers).
Also, we have already sponsored and keep sponsoring various events on FLGSs, while we have never sponsored the "on-line only" retailers (wouldn't even know how but I don't care). We have even sponsored events with Sci-fi, in which we have zero interest! Imagine that, Shieldwolf who is no "Giant" doing something like that... :-)
One last thing; we have seen a number of fire sales/discounts due to Black Friday, celebrating 5 years existence, celebrating holidays, celebrating Mary Poppins, whatever. The thing is, these discount directly from the source. Now I am not saying we might not do it ourselves at some point, but we are fighting not to, and even if we do at some point it will be very limited. Do you know how many fire-sales or any of this type of celebrations we have done all these years? I do. None. Not a single discounted period ever e.g. "We now offer all of our Araves range at -20%, offer lasts till X date". That should also speak by itself about our Policies. :-D
I'm not saying anything about KS, it's the FLGS owners who support these kinds of discounting crackdowns who insist Kickstarter is damaging their businesses. IMO it's a fantastic platform, I've made the arguments you make here in defence of it before, but many FLGS owners don't give the tiniest little gak about you being able to rapidly expand your range or niche products that would otherwise never have been made finding funding, all they care about is the fact that people are spending more of their hobby money on Kickstarter and less in their shops, just as they don't care about the value and convenience offered by discounters, they just want less people buying from discounter and more buying from them.
But they don't want to compete with Kickstarter and they don't want to compete with discounters, they want to guilt-trip customers and small producers into not using KS and they want big publishers to use preferential trade terms to artificially limit discounters. My point in bringing it up was it's a touch hypocritical to support their condemnation of discounting while also taking advantage of a platform they consider just as damaging to their business.
Online discounters can provide the product cheaper. Clubs can provide space to game. Facebook and other social media allows a community to organise. The FLGS model is simply no longer necessary, and as a result many FLGSs which aren't willing or able to innovate their business model are dying out - I say let them die.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2016/04/02 13:47:00
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
Yodhrin wrote: Online discounters can provide the product cheaper. Clubs can provide space to game. Facebook and other social media allows a community to organise. The FLGS model is simply no longer necessary, and as a result many FLGSs which aren't willing or able to innovate their business model are dying out - I say let them die.
Correct. I've long felt that FLGSs need to provide something more than "table space" if they want to survive in this day and age. When you can't compete with prices, don't stock/support more than a handful of games (as understandable as that is), and rely on what is basically charity of "support where you play", you aren't really bringing much to the table that can't be gotten with a solid gaming club and renting a space (although this seems harder in the US than overseas) and then coordinating all activities via Facebook or similar social media; in fact, in that case you never have to worry about there not being enough space (for instance, this weekend is a MtG pre-release. My local shop has zero room for me to even play Warmachine if I wanted to this weekend) and has the added benefit of exposing club members to a variety of games rather than the "chosen game" of the shop. For example, if I wanted to play let's say Infinity, well it's not supported at my local shop. If I tried to play it there I'd likely get dirty looks if not outright hostility for daring to bring something that the shop can't/won't stock, therefore not supporting the shop (I've had this actually happen before; had regulars basically say don't play X game here because the store owner can't stock it, so it's not supporting him).
I'd much rather pay club dues and meet my buddies every 2 weeks or so at an independent venue that has no interest in what we play, so I could be exposed to various things. For instance, I am curious about historical games. If the club had people who play that, well I can introduce myself and learn about it, and have people to play with. That's much better than having no place to play it because the FLGS has no interest in supporting that, and the mere suggestion of an alternative basically gets shot down because it won't benefit the store unless the owner can stock it and there's more than just 1-2 people interested in playing it. A gaming club doesn't have that problem, and benefits more from the exposure of having even 2 people who play let's say Napoleonics, because then other club members can see it and try it out, and all of a sudden you can get more people to like that genre of gaming.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/02 14:21:33
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2016/04/02 15:21:38
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
+1 nope. Friends at school. If anything, (F)LGS were a hindrance to getting into the hobby. My parents thought it was a bad scene and the stores sure as hell weren't accommodating to new players.
2016/04/02 15:44:26
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
+1 nope. Friends at school. If anything, (F)LGS were a hindrance to getting into the hobby. My parents thought it was a bad scene and the stores sure as hell weren't accommodating to new players.
This. I would have subscribed to that assumpion ("LGS are important for the hobby") right up until the mid of the 90s, because tabletop games were only visible in those stores, or gaming clubs.
Today, most of the info is provided by the internet, and people to play are found either in school or college first, forums and facebook second.
Not saying that stores are not an important multiplicator. Just saying that the whole "the hobby scene will wither and die if we do not give incompetent store owners more leeway" is bollocks.
Currently playing: Infinity, SW Legion
2016/04/02 15:47:23
Subject: Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
What you fail to take account of is that players are the end users and not PP's customers ie the game store and distributors who are handing over the money to them. So they are looking after their customers from that PoV.
Money talks after all.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2016/04/02 15:48:35
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
I didn't have a store or friends truly get me into the hobby.
I was the Progenitor!
A strong interest in fantasy kept me digging in to new avenues of interest, and around 4th or 5th grade I fell down that rabbit hole and only recovered for a little bit around high school through college.
All the shops did was continue to fuel the fire. Shops closed up, interested died out.
Internet eventually got into our house, interest in hobby returned (with a solid 15+ year Gundam interim period).
The shops for me have always been an item of convenience rather than a necessity.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Personally, I think that the main problem of a lot of stores, at least quite a few I knew personally, is the people running it. Some stores run very well and you get into the store and know why - everything looks very organized, the layout looks good, some things are on display, staff is greeting you when coming in etc. In short: you immediately get the feeling that the store is taken care of. I call it the "parents / girlfriend check": would your parents / gf feel comfortable?
On the other hand, I have seen my share of stores that...weren't there for a long time and it's those "nerd cave stores". Chaotic look, dust on some stuff, staff is mainly busy watching YouTube videos, poor logistics..
Short anecdote on logistics:
Spoiler:
I recently visited an old friend of mine in another city who just started a club and wanted to get some advice. We were looking to get a KoW tournament going and I told him to keep a few spare player rulebooks ready in the club. We went to the LGS and he told us that he could order it in 1-2 weeks. Well, screw it, let's take two big books then, I'll cover the difference. Answer? 1-2 weeks. If you don't have the rulebook for a major gaming system in store, then you got poor logistics. We drove back and ordered 3 of them online that arrived 2 days later.)
...and the general feeling of " 'tis be a nerd store for nerds". This isn't what you want your customers to feel. Regulars are okay with that, but new ones ain't. A lof of wargamers aren't very extrovert guys and if you go into a store not knowing anyone and you get the nerd cave feel, you might feel intimitated by the atmosphere.
tl;dr: A well-run store that is run like an actual store instead of a hobby can still manage to survive. You will not earn a lot of money, but that's retail in general. Your customers are your customers, not your friends. Yes, you want them to be closer than a supermarket, no doubt, but you still gotta stay professional. Make them feel comfortable and welcomed, but make clear that your store cannot run on Facebook likes. You can only cure cancer with them.
Until the late 90s, I'd agree with FLGS being the center of attention. Nowadays? No. Interested in a game? Check games on YouTube. Flames of War does an awesome job at it - they got a really good tutorial series on YouTube.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/02 15:52:33
Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...
What? I didn't know that. Now I feel a little badly for supporting their kickstarter. I guess I'll make sure to wait until MMBF or Amazon blowouts instead of ordering their stuff at the flgs.
Why? They went to Kickstarter to Kickstart their Dropfleet Commander range, not to screw over stores and steel everyones money.
I'm just against the whole attitude. I bought the DZC starter from MM because the discount made it a must purchase. Since then, I have ordered a number of their resin products through the FLGS and paid MSRP because they weren't too expensive and I wanted to support the FLGS and HW. However, if they are engaged in price protectionism and dicking around with eretailers, then it makes a big difference to me. On principle, I would purchase all their products from deep dis counters or not at all. And during the Kickstarter, I advised a lot of people who were on the fence to wait for the retail discounts who might now not ever get into the game if those discounts never materialize. Now I look like a fool and Hawk Wargames looks greedy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidstyler wrote: He doesn't feel bad about giving them money via Kickstarter, he feels bad about not being able to get a big enough discount on the models when they hit retail.
So he basically doesn't give a crap about the FLGS in either case.
I buy more from my FLGS than I do online. And I don't even game there. I also post here about events and sales that bring them more custom. I support them because they treat me well and run a pleasant business. I'm not a part of the local gaming community and I owe local gamers nothing.
The attitude of a company makes a difference to me. I shop at Costco and not Walmart for a reason.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/02 16:21:55
TalonZahn wrote: I'm always slightly confused by the FLGS vs. "Online" store arguments when it comes to the "resources" comparison.
I've been to the physical location of Miniatures Market. I have never in my life seen a "physical" hobby store with that much space or personnel. Their costs for lights, heat, A/C, employees, and all the other things mentioned, absolutely have to far out-strip any FLGS.
I'm guessing the response will be volume and variety is how they can cut so low, like say... Walmart.
I'm also aware that there are some online discounters that are 1-2 man operations. The big movers and shakers in the online space are not these guys.
I also believe it's Battlefront (?) that requires anyone selling onlien to have a physical store to sell their products. PP could move to something like that, which will levle the field more, and in a more sensible way.
With all due respect, costs are regional.
This.
An online retailer, can rent a warehouse that is in the middle of nowhere; a FLGS has to be accessible and central. This always costs more.
Has anyone considered the fact that maybe people in San Francisco, New York and other stupidly expensive places to live, arent OWED a place to go play as some kind of inalienable right? That maybe a business model should really just be left to die in some places where it's prohibitively expensive? Trying to keep a FLGS in certain places is like growing fruit trees in Death Valley.
An online retailer can work during any hours he pleases; a FLGS has to work during precise working hours, and often sacrifice Saturdays and Sundays for the sake of events, thus wages go up. This always (you guessed it!) costs more.
Why are game stores open during the day, unless it's summer break? That seems like a waste of resources when almost all your clientele is working or in school.
And btw, apologies but I fail to follow, where exactly would you host these events in, with e.g. 50 people and, I don't know, let's say Paris, if all FLGS are closed down? And who would run that event?
LOL, like most game stores could host 50 people events. I'd say you host them in banquet halls or something similar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/02 18:40:07
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Why are game stores open during the day, unless it's summer break? That seems like a waste of resources when almost all your clientele is working or in school.
It really is a waste. Unless it was the holidays or some release day that people HAD TO HAVE, the only reason to be open before 3 or so was to receive UPS shipments (aka 99% of our merchandise). Ask Brown if they can deliver later in the day and they will reply 'do you want your shipments at all?' So right there, that is 15ish hours/week that are essentially a money sink.
2016/04/02 17:01:54
Subject: Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
Whoa there, hold up - I meant their web forum, not the fact that they are an online retailer ... who passes no savings from circumventing the middle men on to their customers, by the way.
I know it doesn't sound like it but that's a good thing. It means GW is not trying to undercut thier retailers. However they have a few online only items they could discount if they wanted those products to move faster.
Thier online presence is also good right now with several fb pages up again. I don't think thier online presence diminished for any reason other then Kirby trying to cut costs off all non essential production personell.
Local Game Stores in the US vs Europe vs Clubs is apples and oranges honestly. I didn't even find out about clubs until I started promoting certain games which required a local game store to get the tournament kits unless you are in EU and then you could be a club. It was frustrating at times that we couldn't get access to them because we were in the US and it required a LGS. However it was something I had to work around.
Game clubs in the US have been around for awhile. Some of them have membership fees, others are just donations and some even rent their own gaming areas. There are a couple in Oregon that run that way. Lately I haven't been going weekly to the LGS, we've been doing gaming groups locally. That is mainly because we aren't growing our groups or gaming community, we focused on some other projects. I still set up demos times that I go to get interest in some of the games we play though.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: LOL, like most game stores could host 50 people events. I'd say you host them in banquet halls or something similar.
LGS just need to figure a means to offset costs that is why most focus on MtG or some TCG so they can run 153 player pre-releases and tournaments.
2016/04/02 17:21:53
Subject: Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
I'm just against the whole attitude. I bought the DZC starter from MM because the discount made it a must purchase. Since then, I have ordered a number of their resin products through the FLGS and paid MSRP because they weren't too expensive and I wanted to support the FLGS and HW. However, if they are engaged in price protectionism and dicking around with eretailers, then it makes a big difference to me. On principle, I would purchase all their products from deep dis counters or not at all. And during the Kickstarter, I advised a lot of people who were on the fence to wait for the retail discounts who might now not ever get into the game if those discounts never materialize. Now I look like a fool and Hawk Wargames looks greedy.
I don't think that's "FLGS must be saved!" protectionism like PP and FFG are trying to wrap themselves in. I think that's just their standard terms offered to everyone and doesn't preclude the offer of other incentives or sales. It's just the maximum "standard advertised discount" if you want to get things, online or B&M. This is not really any different than going to some big box store and see "price shown in cart" on an item because it's below MSRP and that's not allowed to be advertised by the manufacturer's trade terms.
While still mildly annoying, I find that less troublesome than people who say "this group can do A because we like them for <reasons>, but these other customers are scum so we're going to make them not do things we don't like." While the end result isn't terribly different, in the former at least everyone is treated equally "badly" (since doing business with a manufacturer, especially in wargaming, is always a choice) while another company is clearly playing favorites based on channel.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
I think the fault lies with the hobby industry. After three years of painting miniatures, I'm buying individual bottles and realizing that the discount at the OLGS is negligible for a product under $10, especially if I pay for shipping. A retailer I spoke to long ago said $20 is the "impulse price" that customers will buy things at her store. This means that, as hobby games and miniatures have kept rising in price, FLGS have had essentially *fewer and fewer* items they can sell in their store. The FLGS here sells snacks, drinks, and individual dice as low-cost convenience items.
Magic the Gathering, of course, is sold in under-$5 packs, so that anyone who wants some cards NOW can pick them up at the FLGS at MSRP, but not at a price that saves them much were they to go to the OLGS for that pack. No doubt that's one of the reason every FLGS with table space supports Magic.
thats actually pretty interesting, the impulse buy price/threshold. I'm curious how they store owners I know in different regions and carrying a diverse product range would answer that. Some of the. Do the card games to pay the bills (interesting to me anyway as miniwargaming has a rival in how much its customers spend) . Thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Schmapdi wrote: They're not "axeing" anybody - reading the FAQ - it honestly just strikes me as a PR campaign to say "we love FLGS."
I mean - your store gets put on a secret list, that no one but PP can see, and your shipments get delayed. These things seem hard to prove.
And until it affects MM (which I doubt it will) I'm not too concerned.
i gotta hand it to them, that FAQ was a great post, anticipating questions. Obviously that's no panacea or end of questions coming their way but more than some companies would do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/02 17:33:42
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2016/04/02 21:29:54
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
I'm surprised no one's yet mentioned another aspect of this issue: manufacturers that limit the discount retailers can give their products but then themselves run a few sales throughout the year at larger discounts. I know of at least one that does that, and there are probably more.
Why are game stores open during the day, unless it's summer break? That seems like a waste of resources when almost all your clientele is working or in school.
That a nice assumption you've got there that almost everyone in this world works 9-5, monday to friday. They don't.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2016/04/02 21:50:44
Subject: Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
Crimson Devil wrote: Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?
FFG
Right now I am playing KoW in 15mm. Two of my armies (Twilight kin and Orcs/Gobbos) are from Splintered Light Miniatures. Which not only sells their 15mm figures at $8 for 12 minis, they donate 10% of every order to a group trying to combat child sex slavery/exploitation. That's pretty damn hipster, if you ask me.
Mantic wrote some frigging' awesome rules, just never get in on a Kickstarter with them. And I only deal with GW minis out of nostalgia for 1995-2000.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Why are game stores open during the day, unless it's summer break? That seems like a waste of resources when almost all your clientele is working or in school.
That a nice assumption you've got there that almost everyone in this world works 9-5, monday to friday. They don't.
Most of them do. And if they dont, who the hell are they playing against at the store? I didnt know wargaming was so popular with the night shift crowd!
Stores could get their stuff delivered to the owner's home, and be open later, and stop wasting funds being open when they do next to no business.
2016/04/03 08:24:15
Subject: Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
What seems to be coming out of this thread, is that there are a lot of poor FLGS.
Getting funny looks for playing an unsupported game? Surely that's music to an owners ears! Wait, you want to buy stuff, and that might make people get into a game and also but stuff?
Our FLGS is always starting new games and systems, it's what keeps the meta fresh. And keeps my friend in cash.
The comments on MtG are strange. It's almost like some people have a line between tabletop and card, and none shall pass. MtG keeps the lights on for many a FLGS, it's easy to pick up, a good impulse buy and requires little space. I got into it as I saw a few playing, so now, I'll bring some Guildball or Warmahordes and slot a EDH or Standard deck in my box for a quick game.
This subject always divides people, for the simple fact that FLGS are usually very personal things to people. When they are good, they are a meeting place for friends, a social life for some, an escape for others. And when they are poop, they are all that's wrong with a hobby, an uncomfortable place you want to avoid.
Thank god mine is ace, because my local club is full of clique and unwelcoming members. And yeah, members in both senses!
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Most of them do. And if they dont, who the hell are they playing against at the store? I didnt know wargaming was so popular with the night shift crowd!
I work night shift.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Most of them do. And if they dont, who the hell are they playing against at the store? I didnt know wargaming was so popular with the night shift crowd!
I work night shift.
And are you by any means representative of the national/regional/local hobby scene?
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Most of them do. And if they dont, who the hell are they playing against at the store? I didnt know wargaming was so popular with the night shift crowd!
I work night shift.
I worked 3pm-11pm in manufacturing for years. Couldn't go to a store even if I had one near me. Worked retail even longer where shifts vary wildly and you rarely get a weekend day off. I have a hard time believing "most" people work 9-5 with weekends off these days, at least anywhere I've lived, when most of the jobs are either manufacturing or retail.
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati"
2016/04/03 12:14:30
Subject: Re:Privateer Press Rails Against "Freerider" Retailers
I know I have stopped by each of my "local" game stores (20 miles each way to either of them, in two opposite directions, lol) durinfg the day, and holy crap are they dead. Sometimes I am the only guy in the store, and one of them is half games/half comics, so then I am the only guy in half of the store.
From 3-8 are the big hours, as well as the obvious Saturday.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
