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So, to summarise, we have:


I haven't seen it, so I don't believe her - Check.
What about male victims? - Check.
What about false accusations? - Check.
Some of them are asking for it and just get upset when men actually do it! - Check.
Stupid SJWs making stuff up on the internet - Check.


Well, now that we've covered all the points on the Dakka OT Social Justice Checklist, is it time to end the thread or no?

There is a genuine fear by guys that if a woman is willing to lie, she can destroy your life.
There is a genuine fear by women that guys would be willing to take advantage/abuse them and lie afterward.
This is why due process is so vital.
There are many circumstances where a person's gender appears to carry more weight: that should never be the case.

Best rule my dad ever told me: if a woman is passed out or asleep at a party: do not go near her, do not even look at her, anything you could do would be viewed badly even with the best of intentions.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Well, if you'll tell me why you dress in skimpy outfits for cosplay and then don't want to be ogled, I will happily learn something new.

I don't, but if I would it would be because I like the outfit and nothing else. If you feel an outfit crosses over the magical border where ogling becomes absolutely fine and noncreepy, I honestly couldn't care less, because it still isn't.

I really don't understand what your last sentence is about. I was specifically talking about female cosplayers who dress up in costumes that can be considered skimpy or sexy, but for reasons other than to entice men. This was in response to people saying they don't get why any women would dress up in a sexy costume if they do not want to be ogled and/or being ogled will offend them. I gave the reason I am familiar with. It seems like your argument with me is that there are other reasons..? Well, thanks for helping make my point, I guess. I am not giving any kind of a standard for a male viewer to measure acceptability for ogling, but rather relating the contexts I have heard from women that make a difference between being offended at being ogled and being less offended.

Hrm, If i'm wearing something that shows off most of my body, leaving very little to the imagination, I'm not going to imagine that people aren't going to ogle, or that they're somehow bad people for ogling, it's human nature to do so (no matter what gender), and is the reason why such outfits were designed for the characters the Cosplayers are representing in the first place if they're skimpy.

It's human nature to kill people we don't like too. Fortunately we've gotten over that part.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's human nature to kill people we don't like too. Fortunately we've gotten over that part.

Are you telling me that I *shouldn't* be beating people over the head with rocks if they have more food than me?

Could we poke at that "terrorism" label?
I would cite "lack of relevance" or a cry for attention like how they tell you to yell "fire" if being molested...

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, If i'm wearing something that shows off most of my body, leaving very little to the imagination, I'm not going to imagine that people aren't going to ogle, or that they're somehow bad people for ogling, it's human nature to do so (no matter what gender), and is the reason why such outfits were designed for the characters the Cosplayers are representing in the first place if they're skimpy.

No, this is completely false, just like saying 'Very covering outfits (like what I usually wear, though not covering to the degree of Muslim clothing) is designed specifically to not draw ogling.' (though the particular instance of Muslim clothing is designed for that purpose, it is also not representative of non-revealing clothing). Wearing something less covering can be because you simply like how the clothing looks, because it is very warm outside or because it is comfortable, not because you want to draw the gaze of those attracted to you. The suit I wear when I go down to the sea for a swim (which shows off literally the entire leg) is a great example of this - I can assure you any guy staring at me creepily at the beach would draw my displeasure despite the nature of what I wear. In the case of cosplayers, they simply seek to replicate the appearance of a chosen fictional character, and their success in that regard is the primary purpose.

Complete coverage is not the default state of clothing.

. In the case of cosplayers, they simply seek to replicate the appearance of a chosen fictional character

Whych are typically drawn/created by men....and depicted in a way that is sexually appealing in order to sell more stuff.

Round and round the circle goes...

DutchWinsAll wrote:
I'm just glad this women had the courage to go after miniature gamers, one of the toughest public facades to crack. With our already glowing public opinion, it must have been hard to dig deep and regurgitate a bunch of stereotypes and embellished information about of bunch socially awkward, but generally very inclusive people.

Clearly the nerdy White males rolling dice are the heart of misogyny in the World. Rap artists' use of women as props and status symbols is definitely way down the list, or any number of Islamic practices.

“Not me, not me, them! They are the bad guys! Me? I am just an helpless victim, a pure-hearted pariah shamefully defamed by bullies looking for a soft target”
In which world are gamers a more maligned group than rappers or Muslim?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I personally cannot side with the woman in the OP. I did attempt to contact her and have discussion about some of the more crass and inflammatory matter in her article. She blocked me after my second message. If she was unwilling to talk, that's fine, but the fact she chose to insult me before blocking speaks volumes about how much I should care for her.

I don't know what your messages where about. However, given how broadly her message was broadcasted, I can imagine she had to deal with tons of angry people and trolls that would be very annoying. Maybe you sounded somehow like a bunch of trolls she had to deal with and she reacted preemptively, assuming you would similarly turn into a troll?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I personally cannot side with the woman in the OP. I did attempt to contact her and have discussion about some of the more crass and inflammatory matter in her article. She blocked me after my second message. If she was unwilling to talk, that's fine, but the fact she chose to insult me before blocking speaks volumes about how much I should care for her.

I don't know what your messages where about. However, given how broadly her message was broadcasted, I can imagine she had to deal with tons of angry people and trolls that would be very annoying. Maybe you sounded somehow like a bunch of trolls she had to deal with and she reacted preemptively, assuming you would similarly turn into a troll?

Believe it or not, Smudge isn't the trolling type. I can very well imagine that his message was well thought out and had a definitive purpose that did not include getting a rise out of the OP

 Talizvar wrote:
...or a cry for attention like how they tell you to yell "fire" if being molested...

Somehow I don't think that analogy works here.

There's another big thing happening today relating to geek culture and this sort of thing.

Admittedly it's not part of geek culture I'm really a part of, but someone else might be. - It's related to someone called Tony Turner, I think he's a youtube person, or something?

 Compel wrote:
There's another big thing happening today relating to geek culture and this sort of thing.

Admittedly it's not part of geek culture I'm really a part of, but someone else might be. - It's related to someone called Tony Turner, I think he's a youtube person, or something?

Toby Turner (Tobuscus). http://aprilefff.tumblr.com/post/142456789310/the-truth-about-tobuscus

 Breotan wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
...or a cry for attention like how they tell you to yell "fire" if being molested...

Somehow I don't think that analogy works here.

Grasping at straws here is the problem.
My analogy I feel fits because I feel we are not being presented the real intent of what this person wants.
I have difficulty trying to find a point or a direction to go with the OP's issues-complaints.
A warning for others?
Revenge?
To vent?
If there is so much blame to heap on Wyrd, why insist on being made a rep to a company and "culture" labeled as "terrorists".
It feels so insincere in the offer to "fix" the problems.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
There's another big thing happening today relating to geek culture and this sort of thing.

Admittedly it's not part of geek culture I'm really a part of, but someone else might be. - It's related to someone called Tony Turner, I think he's a youtube person, or something?

Toby Turner (Tobuscus). http://aprilefff.tumblr.com/post/142456789310/the-truth-about-tobuscus

So she stayed with him for... 3 years while claiming he was abusive then... Posted it on Tumblr? Not report it to... a police officer...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, If i'm wearing something that shows off most of my body, leaving very little to the imagination, I'm not going to imagine that people aren't going to ogle, or that they're somehow bad people for ogling, it's human nature to do so (no matter what gender), and is the reason why such outfits were designed for the characters the Cosplayers are representing in the first place if they're skimpy.

No, this is completely false, just like saying 'Very covering outfits (like what I usually wear, though not covering to the degree of Muslim clothing) is designed specifically to not draw ogling.'

No, because very covering outfits have a wide variety of purposes. Skimpy cosplay outfits are, with very few exceptions, designed to highlight the physical attractiveness of the character, they are intended to draw that kind of attention by the designers who conceptualized the character.

If you dress up as the main character from Kill la Kill, and expect that nobody should ogle for instance, well, then you're being both deluded and missing a huge part of the ironic comedy of the show in that the characters are fully aware of how absurdly sexualized their outfits are, both male and female. Likewise, someone doing a Faye Valentine cosplay should be under no misconceptions about the outfit being intended to draw sexual attention, because it's designed to and used by the character to do just that to accomplish her goals. Such outfits were designed to draw the human eye to certain areas and highlight certain things.

Clothing sends signals and messages about who we are, what our mindset is, and what we're doing, like it or not. I get a very different reception if I walk into a store in my work attire with tie, chronometer, collared shirt, lace ups, and slacks, than if I walk in with my hang out attire of a t-shirt, cargo pants, and boots with a ratty sweater, and I'll get a *very* different reception yet again if I come in wearing nothing but a male C-String. I'm still the same person in every instance, but everyone's perception and reaction to me, regardless of gender, occupation, or station in life, is going to vary tremendously depending on which of those three outfits they see me in. I'm also not going to think that everyone else is wrong for treating me differently in each situation because I'm sending them different signals in each instance.

If I'm wearing biker leathers and assless chaps just because I like how they look on me, I'm also going to be fully aware of the kind of attention I'm going to draw and I'd be an idiot if I wasn't.

(though the particular instance of Muslim clothing is designed for that purpose, it is also not representative of non-revealing clothing). Wearing something less covering can be because you simply like how the clothing looks, because it is very warm outside or because it is comfortable, not because you want to draw the gaze of those attracted to you.

In some situations, yes, though context still matters. If we're talking about Cosplay outfits, there's a specific context there that can't be ignored, in that such outfits were inherently designed to draw sexual attention to the character. If you don't want sexual attention/ogling, don't dress up as a character that was intended to draw sexual attention, pick a different character. If you just like the outfit, great, but don't be so dumb as to ignore the context, go out in a very public place, and pretend everyone else is the bad guy when the reaction one gets is exactly what the character designers intended.

That said, I'm not defending people coming up and fondling someone in costume or stalking, but if we're just talking about elevator eyes/taking a picture/etc, well, expect that as a matter of course to some degree if you're wearing a skimpy outfit, regardless of gender.

The suit I wear when I go down to the sea for a swim (which shows off literally the entire leg) is a great example of this - I can assure you any guy staring at me creepily at the beach would draw my displeasure despite the nature of what I wear.

There's a couple of differences here in that at a place like that, just about *everyone* is going to be wearing something skimpier than what they'd normally wear, it's commonly accepted attire at a place like that regardless of age/gender/fitness/etc and has a directly functional reason for such (being in the water and swimming). That said, there's also some choice involved in what people wear there too that also sends signals, male or female. A dude wearing a speedo and a dude wearing board shorts+T-shirt are going to get different reactions from people, just as a woman wearing a one-piece is going to get different reactions than a woman wearing a string bikini. Clothing and coverage absolutely sends signals and attracts different kind of attention and should be understood by people when choosing what to wear.

Wearing a cosplay outfit at a con is also different than going to the beach. There is inherently has some attention-seeking to it, even if the character isn't sexualized in any way (e.g. a Klingon or Storm Trooper or whatever), you don't go to not get noticed. In my personal experience, having been to the San Diego comic-con more years of my life than not (though not in the last couple years since I don't live there anymore), and having dressed up in costume on several occasions and been part of that experience, a degree of attention seeking is absolutely inherent in that activity.

In the case of cosplayers, they simply seek to replicate the appearance of a chosen fictional character, and their success in that regard is the primary purpose.

Who, if wearing a skimpy outfight, was likely intentionally designed to be ogled at in the first place...

Complete coverage is not the default state of clothing.

I'm not saying it is, but there's also a difference between complete coverage and the "I'm just barely not getting cited for indecent exposure" outfits we commonly see from Cosplayers, and the latter sends some specific fundamental signals to other people, like it or not, and if someone is wearing something that is showing off and intentionally highlighting natural human sexual characteristics, and then gets mad when they go out in public to show off said outfit in a place where other get attention such an outfit was designed to attract, well, it's hard to be terribly sympathetic if the extent of what we're talking about is picture taking and elevator eyes.

So your point with all that is 'it's not weird to ogle them because they are replicating a character designed to be sexy.'

Because the character they are replicating exists only for their sexiness, right? Believe me, there are some characters in such outfits I could see myself cosplaying (Symmetra is a good example I will use here) but I do not see her sexiness as a factor, and - here is the big one - why would you see the sexiness as the reason people would choose to cosplay her, or the design behind her? There is much more to her character than your perceived sexual attraction and that you are forcing it into everyone's faces and telling it that is all there is to the character's design is their sexiness is pretty disturbing, honestly.

A good male counterpart in this example would be Hanzo (he is perceived by just about every female Overwatch player I have met as very attractive, including in his outfit design) but nobody would reduce someone cosplaying as him as 'he just wants to be ogled', and it's pretty offensive to do so - his perceived attractiveness is only a small sliver of why you might want to cosplay as him (he is cool as hell in general, for one!)

See them in their own light.

Everyone cosplays and wears what they want for different reasons. That is completely subjective to the person who puts on the outfit for whatever their reasons are. That doesn't mean that Person A wears it for the same reasons as Person B.

When someone looks at someone or something that is also subjective to the person viewing them. They will make their own decisions or opinions on why they are looking at someone, if they look at it.

These two point of views rarely happen on equal footing or are equal unless the person wearing something and the person looking know each other. Then they've actually communicated and talked about these things and about what they are comfortable with.. in most cases.

The issue is when strangers are involved. They will make their own subjective reasoning based on their own experiences and personalities. That will result in different reactions.

The reasons why someone chooses to cosplay someone or wears a certain outfit doesn't matter. However they also can't stop someone from looking at them in a manner they don't like when they are out in public. Not unless we're are going to start thought policing everyone. As long as they don't violate a person's rights by touching them without permission there is nothing wrong with someone having their own opinions. That should also mean they shouldn't antagonize or aggressively cat call someone either because now your crossing over into a harassment area. I know some people will claim freedom of speech and all... I'm not even going to pretend to justify that excuse but it does exist.

 TheMeanDM wrote:

So the SJW's need to go and shut down 99% of female cosplay because of the gratuitous T&A.

I will inspect their costumes. Just line up outside my hotel room inspection station.

You are 100% legally permitted to ogle a cosplayer, Severance, (within reason) just as they 100% have the right to think you are a creep for doing so.

 kronk wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:

So the SJW's need to go and shut down 99% of female cosplay because of the gratuitous T&A.

I will inspect their costumes. Just line up outside my hotel room inspection station.

Kronk, you are truly an inspiration to us all with your volunteer spirit and generosity.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You are 100% legally permitted to ogle a cosplayer, Severance, (within reason) just as they 100% have the right to think you are a creep for doing so.

Just so we're clear, the right to be judgemental and negative exists both ways right? Severance would, hypothetically, be within his rights to hold any negative, condemning views on her behaviour, just as she is of his?

 kronk wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
So the SJW's need to go and shut down 99% of female cosplay because of the gratuitous T&A.

I will inspect their costumes. Just line up outside my hotel room inspection station.

I try to be fair and unbiased, try to see things from the exploited and the "ogled".
Then you write this...
I am just a cave-man... that was funny.
I am utterly disillusioned now.
Men are dogs, do not trust them and always assume every third thought is about sex.
There, it is out now.
Run for your lives womenfolk.
My only advice is to be VERY clear you are not interested in our attentions or being ogled... we are cave men after all.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
You are 100% legally permitted to ogle a cosplayer, Severance, (within reason) just as they 100% have the right to think you are a creep for doing so.

Just so we're clear, the right to be judgemental and negative exists both ways right? Severance would, hypothetically, be within his rights to hold any negative, condemning views on her behaviour, just as she is of his?

He can hold that opinion, of course. No opinion is in itself illegal to have.

That said, I'd argue his opinion would be wrong, but it's a free society...

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
There's another big thing happening today relating to geek culture and this sort of thing.

Admittedly it's not part of geek culture I'm really a part of, but someone else might be. - It's related to someone called Tony Turner, I think he's a youtube person, or something?

Toby Turner (Tobuscus). http://aprilefff.tumblr.com/post/142456789310/the-truth-about-tobuscus

Speaking of which, Jaclynn Glenn, another prominent Youtuber and an ex of Toby "Tobuscus" Turner, commented on the allegations and her own relationship with him.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So your point with all that is 'it's not weird to ogle them because they are replicating a character designed to be sexy.'

My point is, if you're going to dress like a character that has an intentionally highlighted sexual appearance, it's a bit silly to get offended when you draw sexual attention. I mean, if I go outside in my naughty nightwear to grab the morning paper, I'm going to expect that people may stare if they see me even if I'm not wearing it to look sexy for them.

Not that everyone *must* ogle them, I have no idea where you got that, but if you're going to be surprised an offended when it *does* happen, that's being a bit absurd.

At the risk of Godwin'ing the thread, if someone were to walk around in a Waffen-SS uniform simply because they think it looks cool, they're going to draw certain reactions from people even if those reactions are based on reasons totally unrelated to why they may be wearing the outfit, and they'd be stupid to be surprised or offended at the responses they get. Hell, if I were to cosplay as something akin to my Forum avatar, a DKoK Grenadier, I'd still be wary of getting Nazi reactions from people, and I'm not going to pretend that it wouldn't potentially happen or that everyone would be familiar with the character and know what it is and react accordingly.

Because the character they are replicating exists only for their sexiness, right?

I don't believe I said that. I said that, if cosplaying a character with a skimpy outfit, then sex appeal was a factor of the character's inherent design, and pretending that nobody should notice is ridiculous.

That is *not* the same as saying it's the only reason to replicate the character. Such characters need not be replicated only for their sexiness (though in some cases, yes, they absolutely are), but it *is* often a factor of such characters, and if you're going to go around trying to make it out like it's not something people are going react to in certain ways, that's being a bit absurd, especially from people who may have absolutely no idea who the character is and they just see someone walking by looking incredibly sexually attractive.

Believe me, there are some characters in such outfits I could see myself cosplaying (Symmetra is a good example I will use here) but I do not see her sexiness as a factor, and - here is the big one - why would you see the sexiness as the reason people would choose to cosplay her, or the design behind her?

I'm not saying it's the sole reason the character was designed or why someone would cosplay as said character, but pretending sex appeal wasn't a part of the design (with thigh-high, high heeled boots, form fitting clothing, and exposed thighs...that's not exactly practical fighting gear...) is silly, just like male characters get enhanced beefcake features like ginormous forearms and pectoral muscles and the like, and demanding everyone pretend it doesn't exist and that nobody should have what is ultimately a natural reaction to it, nor pay any attention to it is also...silly.

There is much more to her character than your perceived sexual attraction and that you are forcing it into everyone's faces and telling it that is all there is to the character's design is their sexiness is pretty disturbing, honestly.

Again, I don't think I said that...anywhere...

However, that notwithstanding, my point is that if you're going to dress in something sexy, even if it's not the point of dressing in that outfit, don't be surprised or angry when people like to look at sexy things, regardless of gender. Just like if I had the physique of an Adonis and went out running in short and without a shirt on, I'm not going to expect that the school mum in the window as I run by may not take an extended look...

A good male counterpart in this example would be Hanzo (he is perceived by just about every female Overwatch player I have met as very attractive, including in his outfit design) but nobody would reduce someone cosplaying as him as 'he just wants to be ogled', and it's pretty offensive to do so - his perceived attractiveness is only a small sliver of why you might want to cosplay as him (he is cool as hell in general, for one!)

See them in their own light.

I'm not saying that you can't do any of these things, but lets google this character here...

Ok, like I mentioned above, it's looks like a beefy dude with bare, highlighted arms and pecs. If I were blessed with such a physique and chose to cosplay as this character, I would realize that I'm likely to get certain reactions from some people, regardless of my intentions in dressing as them or their knowledge of the character, and expecting that I wouldn't be drawing some of that attention (again, assuming I possessed such a mythical physique ) would be silly.

 Vaktathi wrote:
However, that notwithstanding, my point is that if you're going to dress in something sexy, even if it's not the point of dressing in that outfit, don't be surprised or angry when people like to look at sexy things, regardless of gender. Just like if I had the physique of an Adonis and went out running in short and without a shirt on, I'm not going to expect that the school mum in the window as I run by may not take an extended look...

Since this is the foundation of your argument, let's explore it further.

Where do you draw the line for where an outfit, if worn, draws ogling that is perfectly respectable and not weird? Because I am going to go ahead and assume you agree that said kind of attention to someone wearing normal everyday office clothing would not be any of that.

Must it be designed with sexiness in mind (which you can't know for sure since in almost all cases you have not asked the designer, so it quickly walks into speculative territory, and devolves into 'if it is okay to ogle or not depends on how sexy I think it is')?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, just to ensure we are not having a meaningless discussion here:

As pointed out by EVERYONE'S BEST FRIEND who read this topic, we may not be thinking about 'ogling' in the same meaning.

There's 'staring inappropriately in a creepy manner' and 'looking at someone and thinking 'wow, sexy'. I am talking about the former here, and I assumed everyone else was as well. If you are talking about the latter, then eh, that happens and is not big deal. But the former happens too, and is a lot more unpleasant to be subjected to.

Isn't the line between "looking at someone and thinking 'wow, sexy'" and "staring inappropriately in a creepy manner" also a totally subjective line that's never going to be able to be pinned down in this discussion right alongside what counts as 'designed to be sexy' cloths?

Yes, but that is more along the line 'when does something I tell you cross the line of becoming offensive'?