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"Oh poor me, I don't get to wear gold and blue, and my spiritual liege doesn't like me"
"Poor CSM, they only have a giant Ap3 template weapon that wounds on 2's and does not allow saves on really expensive units"
"Poor CSM, they only have T6 bikers"
"Poor CSM, they have cheap spammable objective grabbers"
and so on.
"OH, poor C:SM, we only have assault out of deepstrike shenanigans"
"Poor C:SM, we have the best anti-mc weapon in the game on good platforms"
"Poor C:SM, we have the most psychic powers out of any faction"
"Poor C:SM, We have 2++ Rerollable\2+++ Deathstars and have more BBs than anyone"
"Poor C:SM, we have free, spammable obsec rhinoes"
"Poor C:SM, we have the most options out of any codex"
"Poor C:SM, we place well\win almost, if not as much as Eldar at tournies"
Ect. Ect. Ad infinitum
And then the Loyalist fan base wonder why we're so bitter and salty, when people like T-W aren't even in the minority...
The funny part is I'm a loyalist player (though I have just started a daemons force because i like MCs and Randomness )
The only thing that I've found even more facepalm inducing than Marine players whining that Chaos Marines have it too good, is the (now minority) of Grey Knight players who won't shut-up about Daemons being hideously OP against them!
This coming from the clowns who would routinely bring Quake-Shunting lists against Daemons back in 5th, and then parrot out the age 'ol, "L2P/Git Gud Noob!" when asked to stop being flaming donkeycaves.
Something needs to happen with our codex. I just took my CSMs up against my mate's new Eldar Wraith-Host army. I barely had anything left after his turn 1. I didn't get a turn 2. That oh-so-scary Baledrake didn't even make it on to the table.
Crispy78 wrote: Something needs to happen with our codex. I just took my CSMs up against my mate's new Eldar Wraith-Host army. I barely had anything left after his turn 1. I didn't get a turn 2. That oh-so-scary Baledrake didn't even make it on to the table.
What happened? Based on what I know about the Wraith Host that is very hard. Were their allies or something?
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Crispy78 wrote: Something needs to happen with our codex. I just took my CSMs up against my mate's new Eldar Wraith-Host army. I barely had anything left after his turn 1. I didn't get a turn 2. That oh-so-scary Baledrake didn't even make it on to the table.
What happened? Based on what I know about the Wraith Host that is very hard. Were their allies or something?
My guess would be D-scythes & Wraithknight(s) happened...
Crispy78 wrote: Something needs to happen with our codex. I just took my CSMs up against my mate's new Eldar Wraith-Host army. I barely had anything left after his turn 1. I didn't get a turn 2. That oh-so-scary Baledrake didn't even make it on to the table.
What happened? Based on what I know about the Wraith Host that is very hard. Were their allies or something?
My guess would be D-scythes & Wraithknight(s) happened...
Normally that doesn't wipe all your stuff out before you get to move though, since it's either 18" move/disembark/run plus 8" template and WK's generally don't have the volume of fire to wipe out vast swathes of stuff in a single turn.
Unless either the CSM went first then got smoked by scytheguard coming out of a serpent or the scytheguard went first, popped a couple of dudes and then the CSM foolishly charged them without cultists to eat the overwatch.
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
Crispy78 wrote: Something needs to happen with our codex. I just took my CSMs up against my mate's new Eldar Wraith-Host army. I barely had anything left after his turn 1. I didn't get a turn 2. That oh-so-scary Baledrake didn't even make it on to the table.
What happened? Based on what I know about the Wraith Host that is very hard. Were their allies or something?
My guess would be D-scythes & Wraithknight(s) happened...
One of those things has 8" range so if they wipe out your army T1 that's an incredible deployment.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Yup. Wraithguard crossed the table in their speedy transports, hopped out and blew me away. I managed to kill one guy from my overwatch, Kharn took out half a squad before being killed by a fricking nancy-boy Farseer, and my DP took out a squad before falling to D shots from the Wraithknight. My Berserkers were all wiped out by some lightning storm spell in one shot.
Then to add insult to injury, his jetbike squads managed to come in on turn 2 and take every single objective in addition to tabling me.
He's a good mate and all, and he was even double-checking rules and saying 'that can't be right', but... Yeah. Not my most fun game.
Swampmist wrote: um... how? Wait gak did he get the scout WL trait on his farseer? Because that would certainly do it...
No it's that bad. I tried out the tormented possessed formation against my friends footdar. Wasn't even close. The only thing I could do was fly my DP and try to summon. Possessed are so over costed it makes me want to run them as Wulfen :(
Swampmist wrote: um... how? Wait gak did he get the scout WL trait on his farseer? Because that would certainly do it...
No it's that bad. I tried out the tormented possessed formation against my friends footdar. Wasn't even close. The only thing I could do was fly my DP and try to summon. Possessed are so over costed it makes me want to run them as Wulfen :(
What's even more amusing, is that GW actually managed to make Possessed even worse in their BL formation!
But listen to Loyalist players, and we're supposed to be hugely grateful that we got "new" rules.
Pretty much the only one saying stuff like that in this thread is a blatant troll.
I realize loyalists are the enemy, but you're giving them too much credit.
The thing is, as far as I recall, GW's codex "design" philosophy is if you like the army you write the rules, the other thing I recall, the last bloke who was a CSM player first and something else second (as opposed to Phil "Eldar first, SW second, we have a CSM faction?" Kelly) was the guy who wrote the 3.5 codex.
So you could say, loyalist/Xeno players do write the CSM codex, don't do anything interesting with it as they aren't too interested in it (other than as the bad guys of the setting).
Of course this doesn't apply to all the writers, but for the most part I don't feel as though there is a CSM player within the writing dept at GW...... or anywhere in GWHQ.
Well, you know more about the process than I do, and I hope you can understand my skepticism that it works that way at all. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised, either. Given the blatant differences in quality or even design philosophy (works for me) between releases as recent as BL/CS vs. Angels of Death, maybe it really isn't much of a stretch at all.
In that sense, yeah I see what you're saying. But the 15 year old Blood Angels player at my local GW isn't the problem. That was my point, though you've given me food for thought.
If there was a CSM player writing the rules there be some vision rather than the just cram some stuff into the book and that strange model that guy did that doesn't fit any other army.
The fact CSM don't even get the new powers as the idea never even came to them shows that.
2000 6000 with Reaver Titan guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
TS 30k at 5k points
Yes I have a problem
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Well, you know more about the process than I do, and I hope you can understand my skepticism that it works that way at all. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised, either. Given the blatant differences in quality or even design philosophy (works for me) between releases as recent as BL/CS vs. Angels of Death, maybe it really isn't much of a stretch at all.
In that sense, yeah I see what you're saying. But the 15 year old Blood Angels player at my local GW isn't the problem. That was my point, though you've given me food for thought.
Loyalist players in general know they have a book that's far superior in every conceivable way to ours. Everything we can possibly try and do, they have at least 1-2 units that do that same thing better, and typically for a decent deal cheaper to boot.
And yet, I still get dirty looks and accusations of being a TFG/WaaC's power gamer when I bring out a bunch of MoT Possessed & Warp Talons allied to Tzeentch Daemons, or god forbid you mention that dirty word 'Malefic' Daemonology...
And if you bring a Heldrake? You're the single worst thing to have ever happened to 40k.
I've had Loyalist players whine that my Sorcerers are OP because we can buy up to Lv3, while they're stuck at "only" Lv2.
Last weekend at the local GW store, a group of Loyalist players were moaning about how game-breaking and cheap the BL Cyclopia Cabal's lonely unique psychic power is, while *****ing that their new lores were merely mediocre by comparison.
And yet, despite being routinely curbstomped, Loyalist players will outright refuse to tone their lists back. Instead, all I get is a long tirade about how Chaos in general is this OP monstrosity, that Mace Princes, MoN, Sorcerers & Heldrakes make a top tier list, and just the general, "lolz!L2P - Git Gud scrub" BS.
On the other hand, I can have a nice 2-3 minute chat with the couple of Eldar players, who will have no problem not using their Wraithknight & D-scythes for a game, in order to give our garbage fire of a codex more of a fighting chance to last at least 3 turns before being inevitably tabled!
It's a shame you have to deal with those players. Sorry to hear it.
Again, my point is that these aren't the people who are writing the rules, unless you live in the UK and play the game with GW employees, I s'pose. It is super lame that they won't really take the principles of good sportsmanship to heart, but that isn't a requirement for playing the game, unfortunately.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/23 20:10:55
Lack of cohesive vision is the first sin of all the present CSM books. There isn't any clear intersection of fluff and rules that would lead you to understand how CSM are meant to function and thus prescribe a play style for example in a way that SM drop pods fit fiction, they rules follow those, and direct a particular play style. Instead we have a nebulous mess where we're expected to kinda-sorta-maybe concoct something that's is some times just count-as-close, but never really achieves anything coming close to the fluff.
GW seems to want to say "there is no such thing as typical chaos army" and yet in their generic nebulous codex writing has so drastically limited what the rules can represent that it represents nothing.
Experiment 626 wrote: And yet, despite being routinely curbstomped, Loyalist players will outright refuse to tone their lists back. Instead, all I get is a long tirade about how Chaos in general is this OP monstrosity, that Mace Princes, MoN, Sorcerers & Heldrakes make a top tier list, and just the general, "lolz!L2P - Git Gud scrub" BS.
On the other hand, I can have a nice 2-3 minute chat with the couple of Eldar players, who will have no problem not using their Wraithknight & D-scythes for a game, in order to give our garbage fire of a codex more of a fighting chance to last at least 3 turns before being inevitably tabled!
Mace Princes? I don't get it. AoBF JP Lord, screened by MoSJPs w/ PW, *always* gets his points back.
Glad to hear that the Eldars are turning the dial down when requested. However, against 'Crons and SMs? No mercy.
BTW, you oughta play against the Orks & IGs - they're good sports and you'll likely get a really good game with your CSMs.
Ork players have always had fantastic personalities in my experience.
Best quote from any game ever?
"And my purple helmeted Nob will penetrate the rear armour of that Rhino with his Huge Choppa....actually...wow...that sounds....wow..."
We somehow managed to get an entire tournament to pause for a few moments because of how that came out....he later decided rather than giving his Orks different colour helmets...he'd give them different colour shoulderpads instead.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Well, you know more about the process than I do, and I hope you can understand my skepticism that it works that way at all. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised, either. Given the blatant differences in quality or even design philosophy (works for me) between releases as recent as BL/CS vs. Angels of Death, maybe it really isn't much of a stretch at all.
In that sense, yeah I see what you're saying. But the 15 year old Blood Angels player at my local GW isn't the problem. That was my point, though you've given me food for thought.
Nobody is saying the 15 year old Blood Angels player wrote the book though. The statement isn't that ALL loyalist players write the dex, its that the guy who wrote the dex, was a loyalist player first, and it shows.
Experiment 626 wrote:
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Well, you know more about the process than I do, and I hope you can understand my skepticism that it works that way at all. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised, either. Given the blatant differences in quality or even design philosophy (works for me) between releases as recent as BL/CS vs. Angels of Death, maybe it really isn't much of a stretch at all.
In that sense, yeah I see what you're saying. But the 15 year old Blood Angels player at my local GW isn't the problem. That was my point, though you've given me food for thought.
Loyalist players in general know they have a book that's far superior in every conceivable way to ours. Everything we can possibly try and do, they have at least 1-2 units that do that same thing better, and typically for a decent deal cheaper to boot.
And yet, I still get dirty looks and accusations of being a TFG/WaaC's power gamer when I bring out a bunch of MoT Possessed & Warp Talons allied to Tzeentch Daemons, or god forbid you mention that dirty word 'Malefic' Daemonology... And if you bring a Heldrake? You're the single worst thing to have ever happened to 40k.
I've had Loyalist players whine that my Sorcerers are OP because we can buy up to Lv3, while they're stuck at "only" Lv2. Last weekend at the local GW store, a group of Loyalist players were moaning about how game-breaking and cheap the BL Cyclopia Cabal's lonely unique psychic power is, while *****ing that their new lores were merely mediocre by comparison.
And yet, despite being routinely curbstomped, Loyalist players will outright refuse to tone their lists back. Instead, all I get is a long tirade about how Chaos in general is this OP monstrosity, that Mace Princes, MoN, Sorcerers & Heldrakes make a top tier list, and just the general, "lolz!L2P - Git Gud scrub" BS.
On the other hand, I can have a nice 2-3 minute chat with the couple of Eldar players, who will have no problem not using their Wraithknight & D-scythes for a game, in order to give our garbage fire of a codex more of a fighting chance to last at least 3 turns before being inevitably tabled!
that sounds atrocious. At least you got some friendly players there though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/26 10:44:21
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
SHUPPET wrote: he simply couldn't grasp why I requested him to take EWO off the 3x Riptides if I wasn't planning to counter-pick him out with "CSM's equivalent to the grav star or drop pod Grav", I tried explaining what EWO did to my TAC list and he seemed to think that means that not taking EWO would mean CSM destroy him.
See spoiler for response.
Spoiler:
This is honestly the only response I can give. Do people genuinely believe CSM have an equivalent to Grav-star or Drop Pod Grav? Is this a legit concern that some people have? It baffles me, it absolutely baffles me.
Nevermind the fact it was three Riptides at 1k points. At least they're somewhat less oppressive as they were before but still...as a CSM player I find even one Riptide to be a miserable affair. Three would have made me cringe by default.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/23 21:58:59
I'd take that post with a grain of salt. 626 has an epic Axe to grind against SM players claiming they're guilty of everything except whacking Hoffa. Not ever any other players of other factions, nor it it ever a limited experience. Apparently they lie, cheat, steal models, beat their wives/gfs everytime she plays someone running SM. Take a look at the post history. It seems kind of looney because even if they abuse the crap out of the rules they do get, they don't have any control over who writes what.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/23 22:04:54
I'd take that post with a grain of salt. 626 has an epic Axe to grind against SM players claiming they're guilty of everything except whacking Hoffa. Not ever any other players of other factions, nor it it ever a limited experience. Apparently they lie, cheat, steal models, beat their wives/gfs everytime she plays someone running SM. Take a look at the post history. It seems kind of looney because even if they abuse the crap out of the rules they do get, they don't have any control over who writes what.
Agreed. This is what I was addressing with my original response. I've seen it across multiple threads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/23 22:16:10
SHUPPET wrote: he simply couldn't grasp why I requested him to take EWO off the 3x Riptides if I wasn't planning to counter-pick him out with "CSM's equivalent to the grav star or drop pod Grav", I tried explaining what EWO did to my TAC list and he seemed to think that means that not taking EWO would mean CSM destroy him.
See spoiler for response.
Spoiler:
This is honestly the only response I can give. Do people genuinely believe CSM have an equivalent to Grav-star or Drop Pod Grav? Is this a legit concern that some people have? It baffles me, it absolutely baffles me.
Nevermind the fact it was three Riptides at 1k points. At least they're somewhat less oppressive as they were before but still...as a CSM player I find even one Riptide to be a miserable affair. Three would have made me cringe by default.
This kind of thing is something that I get whenever I play IG or CSManywhere. As BT, none of it. Everyone is just fine with me stabbing to death double my point's worth of warlord with an EC, drop-podding gravcannons to remove hard targets, and bringing a LRC at 500 pts.
I'd take that post with a grain of salt. 626 has an epic Axe to grind against SM players claiming they're guilty of everything except whacking Hoffa. Not ever any other players of other factions, nor it it ever a limited experience. Apparently they lie, cheat, steal models, beat their wives/gfs everytime she plays someone running SM. Take a look at the post history. It seems kind of looney because even if they abuse the crap out of the rules they do get, they don't have any control over who writes what.
Maybe the SM players are just really bad in his local but yeah point taken
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/26 10:44:53
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
)
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
2000 
6000 with Reaver Titan 
guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
but yeah point taken