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 agnosto wrote:

I know that you and others may object to my reasoning on multiple levels but please realize that I am entirely unapologetic nor am I attempting to reason my way through some existential morality play; I'm simply expressing my thoughts on the topic. With that said, please feel free to disagree all that you like; we can have a friendly conversation (and we have so far) on a potentially contentious topic; in fact, sometimes these can be the most thought provoking and enjoyable.

Cheers!

All good man. I do disagree with your stance heartily, because, as I stated earlier, I am trying to make it in the gaming business so I am approaching the matter from the perspective of the small time operator who has their work infringed upon by others looking to make a quick buck. That just doesn't sit right with me.

However, there are a lot of models I want, and many of them I cannot afford at the moment. There have been a few times where I had to talk myself out of buying from recasters which was tough because the prices were so damn good. So I understand your position. "LIfe is short, the models are cool, so feth it!"

I just ultimately can't support that position because by doing so I would have to approve of others hypothetically doing the same to my work in the future and that is an untenable position for me.

If someone was copying my work and making money off my effort I'd be furious so I avoid doing that to others to avoid indulging in behavior that I find gross and inappropriate.

Which of course gets me labeled as judgmental by some on here.

Anyway, the conversation has been a good one so far (one or two posters excepted) and this is a topic that merits discussion so lets keep it up!

As well GW can price their products however they want just as I am free to spend my money however i want.

An if someone is making a comparable product for much less I see no reason not to send my money that way.

Which all legality aside....you are either funding a greedy corporation- GW or funding smaller operations that are most likely only feeding their families so take your pick as to the ethics on that choice.

Also to my knowledge there is nothing illegal about buying recasts.

The legality/legal issues are all on the person doing the selling. So I have no ethical issues in spending my money how I see fit to get the most bang for the buck so to speak.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

All good man. I do disagree with your stance heartily, because, as I stated earlier, I am trying to make it in the gaming business so I am approaching the matter from the perspective of the small time operator who has their work infringed upon by others looking to make a quick buck. That just doesn't sit right with me.

Then you're not even remotely in the crosshairs of the recasters.

Even PP barely show up on their radar. Recasting is 90+% GW with the odd smattering of other bits and pieces (I suspect they got commissioned to do a bunch of these then added them to the catalogue as they had the stuff, but don't quote me.)

Recasting really won't impact the majority of games and miniatures producers, their market share isn't big enough to make it worthwhile, their pricing is more competitive, and I daresay many people's disposition to "not-GW" companies will make them more inclined to support them directly.

When we talk about recasts in this context, we're essentially talking about "recast GW product."

It's amazing the amount of twisted logic and over explanation people are going to in this thread to justify recasting, selling and buying.

Whether you like GWs business practices or not, it's still theft. Dont try and pass it off as anything else.

I've been sold recasts on eBay in the past. And damn right I've used the grievance system to report the donkey-cave who sold them to me. I'm not going to pay good money for your shoddy knock offs.

Its been explained how it isnt theft though.

I'd like to continue but there appears to be a tornado and golfball sized hail headed this way....ahhh Spring in Oklahoma.

Good evening all!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Its been explained how it isnt theft though.

Explained to the point this is practically trolling.

To the OP: you'll find forums like this is chock full of people who decry recasting as a moral sin and an abomination that strips the original sculpter of his basic human rights, a law breaking phenomena that deserves no less than to be strung up and hung until the twitching stops.

That's fine, that's their opinions.

You'll also find an equal number of people that would jump on the chance to own 20 recasts of 'x' for the price of 5 originals, or a trade of some sort.

There's a casting and molding forum you can hop on to talk about recasts and get a better view of the other half. Dakka dakka has a bunch of the first types that posts. I've been throwing my 2 cents in for a number of years now and it's usually the first type here.



I don't believe in hiding that a recast is a recast. That's dumb. But if someone is straight up, then cool. While we can discuss the topic of recasting, we can't condone the doing-of. So please don't offer to do it for other users, thanks motyak

I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

I have no aspirations to cast anything, that's what I have a variety of emails in my address book for!

 curran12 wrote:
Theft is theft.

And that 'big companies' line is nonsense and you know it. "Well hey, Ford is a big company, so I stole a car." Because you aren't hurting the company by doing that, you're costing some poor guy in the store their job first, a job.

Ehhhhh no. 1. No...2. No no...3... HELL NO.

Not even REMOTELY similar. Recasting isn't taking a dime or costing anyone a job. The CORRECT analogy is "Hey Ford is a big company, but I can't afford the car I want, or they don't make the car available for purchase anymore, OR they don't offer the car in my region....so...I'll get some parts and contact this fellow: http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/type-65-coupe/concept/ Invest what money I CAN, and BUILD IT MYSELF! Because recasting is labor intensive, just not 'as' expensive, though there is still cost in materials, and it allows a person to enjoy something otherwise unattainable.

 JamesY wrote:
I really don't see oop as excusing recasts. You missed your chance buying at retail, simple as. Prices are high second hand? Welcome to collecting, if you don't want to pay the market price, you don't get to have the model. Wanting something doesn't mean that you are entitled to buy it at whatever price suits you. When I want oop models, I ask around, I check eBay regularly, I make offers and message sellers. Most things I've been able to get with a little patience, and without breaking the law, or my morals.

On that note, if anyone has an original krell model (preslotta with sword) they wish to sell, get in touch

I see your point but let me play devil's advocate here. You have a ultra rare model, you bought it, you own it. But it's old school lead, or pewter, etc. and the model takes a tumble off the gaming table one day and shatters some part on it beyond the point of a simple reglue. Now no one carries that model cause it's OOP, no one has a backlog of parts because the certain company were idiots in getting rid of their bitz services and catalogs. And you can't find one to purchase. BUT, someone has a recast for cheap. Why is it wrong to replace the part, with the recast part? Why would it be wrong to recast the broken parts in in a material that could REPAIR your original?


Personally I have no issue with recasting as long as I know I'm getting a recast product. It's a super overblown issue. But then again so is the whole state of copyright laws right now.

What I'm saying [stevefamine] is that you really have no clue about recasting. The description of how you would do the things and the reality of what actually works does not add up. Furthermore, just to prove how inaccurate you are, the alumilite high strength 3 rubber can be bought for under $20, same for the resin. That's $40. You don't even need all or a quarter of that stuff to cast 100 backpacks beautifully. That's the cheap crap too. Using a vibrating table wouldn't remove all the airbubbles from the rubber, so voids would still be present. That's why you'd use a vacuum chamber. If your resin cures within 5-10 minutes (as most cheap resins are wont to do) then 10 casts of a 10 model mold is only about 2 hours. Not all rubbers need 24 hours to cure.

 insaniak wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But how is it now OK? im still making counterfeit shoulderpads aint I? Im taking the symbol and making my own.

Yes and no. Duplicating parts of components as opposed to duplicating complete things is viewed differently by the law. Casting the entire shoulder pads might potentially be an issue, even though they're a part of a larger kit, as GW have also sold them on their own... but making greenstuff pressmoulds of specific details is much more of a grey area, and is something that GW have themselves provided tutorials for in the past, so would be hard for them to claim it's bad for their business.

Ok, so let me get this right
If I cast the entire rhino door of the FW space wolf rhino upgrade that is bad.
But If I take instamold, press it up against it, then greenstuff it in, that is fine morally? even though the same results are acheived?

Basimpo wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

I have no aspirations to cast anything, that's what I have a variety of emails in my address book for!

What I'm saying is that you really have no clue about recasting. The description of how you would do the things and the reality of what actually works does not add up. Furthermore, just to prove how inaccurate you are, the alumilite high strength 3 rubber can be bought for under $20, same for the resin. That's $40. You don't even need all or a quarter of that stuff to cast 100 backpacks beautifully. That's the cheap crap too. Using a vibrating table wouldn't remove all the airbubbles from the rubber, so voids would still be present. That's why you'd use a vacuum chamber. If your resin cures within 5-10 minutes (as most cheap resins are wont to do) then 10 casts of a 10 model mold is only about 2 hours. Not all rubbers need 24 hours to cure.

It feels like your condescending posts inferring that others are trolling are really in of themselves trolling posts.

And I fear you've rather embarrassingly confused me with someone else, then proceeded to be rude to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might I suggest you aim your ire at the user "SteveFamine" who you were engaged in a discussion about casting, and not me, who you weren't?

@kingsman if it was a model that was a) that rare and b) I was hugely attached to, I wouldn't be gaming with it for it to get damaged. However, it wouldn't be ultra rare if there was an easily accessible source of recasts, as any one would be able to obtain it just as easily.

Let's say it is your model. You own it, you love it, you saved for six months to be able to afford it on the resale market. Life throws you a surprise and so you decide to sell it on. Suddenly it's borderline worthless because that recaster has meant everyone who wants one got it for a fiver, and the market price for originals has dropped. I doubt you'd be happy with that reversal.

 General Kroll wrote:
It's amazing the amount of twisted logic and over explanation people are going to in this thread to justify recasting, selling and buying.

Whether you like GWs business practices or not, it's still theft. Dont try and pass it off as anything else.

I've been sold recasts on eBay in the past. And damn right I've used the grievance system to report the donkey-cave who sold them to me. I'm not going to pay good money for your shoddy knock offs.

But what about the instances where the recasts are actually the same or better quality?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JamesY wrote:
@kingsman if it was a model that was a) that rare and b) I was hugely attached to, I wouldn't be gaming with it for it to get damaged. However, it wouldn't be ultra rare if there was an easily accessible source of recasts, as any one would be able to obtain it just as easily.

Let's say it is your model. You own it, you love it, you saved for six months to be able to afford it on the resale market. Life throws you a surprise and so you decide to sell it on. Suddenly it's borderline worthless because that recaster has meant everyone who wants one got it for a fiver, and the market price for originals has dropped. I doubt you'd be happy with that reversal.

Same thing happens with an expensive MtG card when it gets reprinted. Sucks to be the one who bought it when it was expensive, but feels better when you can buy it when the price is down. I've been on both sides of it. It's the way it is.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Im talking about an handle bar, not both. And I mean stuff like the left side breaks off, I need a new one cause shag carpets are evil....?

Shag carpets are indeed evil. So much filth accumulates in them. Massive germ and dust repositories... However, This is your friend in such situations. Just keep the thing cleaned out so that it'll be easy to find the bit.
,

I swear. My state has the weirdest weather in the world. Went from tornado warning and hail to the sun now being out...

In any event. Here's a pick; one of these is not like the other. Nevermind how poorly painted and put together they both are.

 insaniak wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... but I literally could not get what I wanted(I dont care what you say, those are not white scars symbols, their something else) so I had to resort to recasts. ..

I feel that it should be pointed out that 'I want it!' does not mean 'I need to have it!'.

You won't die without those shoulder pads.You had other options - You could have sourced them from eBay. You could have hand-painted the symbol. You could have used decals. You could have used the Forgeworld version. You could have chosen a different chapter, for which you could get shoulder pads. You could have made a pressmould of your chapter badge and made your own. You could have had a custom shoulder pad made. You could have simply put the army aside until GW made the pads available again.


All of those are options, whether you like them or not. You chose to resort to recastes. You didn't have to.

How are press molds ethically viable? Recasting for your own purposes instead of buying more product is apparently theft, so why isn't press molding? If press molding is okay, how about if I pay someone to make a press mold for my personal use?

For the record, I have never bought any recasts and only acquired one through a trade. However, I find the logic behind the debate fascinating.

My opinions...

Various forms of forging or copying things aren't the same as stealing. But, both take profits.

Either way, it impacts small companies more dramatically than large ones. The smaller the company, the more I care about it, where I'll even point out infringements to companies to try to catch people. With big (especially in the case of unpleasant) companies, I don't really care.

Actually, that isn't exactly true. Various copies are something I don't really care about. People trying to make a profit off of someone else's work? Yeah, that pisses me off.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Basimpo wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

I have no aspirations to cast anything, that's what I have a variety of emails in my address book for!

What I'm saying is that you really have no clue about recasting. The description of how you would do the things and the reality of what actually works does not add up. Furthermore, just to prove how inaccurate you are, the alumilite high strength 3 rubber can be bought for under $20, same for the resin. That's $40. You don't even need all or a quarter of that stuff to cast 100 backpacks beautifully. That's the cheap crap too. Using a vibrating table wouldn't remove all the airbubbles from the rubber, so voids would still be present. That's why you'd use a vacuum chamber. If your resin cures within 5-10 minutes (as most cheap resins are wont to do) then 10 casts of a 10 model mold is only about 2 hours. Not all rubbers need 24 hours to cure.

It feels like your condescending posts inferring that others are trolling are really in of themselves trolling posts.

And I fear you've rather embarrassingly confused me with someone else, then proceeded to be rude to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might I suggest you aim your ire at the user "SteveFamine" who you were engaged in a discussion about casting, and not me, who you weren't?

Hey youre right! You are just a victim of android circumstance. My bad!

Stevefamine, hey, everything I meant about Azrael13 is actually about you.

Sorry Azrael13, thanks again!

chaos45 wrote:
My take is its capitalism and free market.

If GW was reasonably pricing their products there would be no need for a recast market.

You do understand just how ignorant of a statement that is, don't you? It doesn't matter what GW priced their models at, recasts will ALWAYS be significantly cheaper. All the recaster needs is one legitimate model, a casting setup, and resin, do their costs are minimal and quickly recouped. The only way GW could price their models to the point that it wouldn't be worth it to recasters would be if it covered material cost and nothing else.

 Xerics wrote:
So let that be a lesson to all those who think their precious metal models are safe. Its actually easier to recast them and near impossible to tell a recast from an original.

If you understood how pewter casting worked, you wouldn't be so sure of that statement. Doing it the way you said would pretty much ensure you got a sloppy model with double mold lines and poor detail. If someone took the care to make their molds precisely matching up the mold lines, as well as venting it properly to make sure you got the right metal flow into your new mold, then it's possible.

But making a good knock off pewter model certainly isn't easy by any standard definition of the word.

 Bookwrack wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
My take is its capitalism and free market.

If GW was reasonably pricing their products there would be no need for a recast market.

You do understand just how ignorant of a statement that is, don't you? It doesn't matter what GW priced their models at, recasts will ALWAYS be significantly cheaper. All the recaster needs is one legitimate model, a casting setup, and resin, do their costs are minimal and quickly recouped. The only way GW could price their models to the point that it wouldn't be worth it to recasters would be if it covered material cost and nothing else.

Except that isn't really true. Technically, yes, it would always be possible to produce a recast for less than the real thing, because there's less overhead involved. But there's also a point where it is no longer worth the recaster investing the time and effort for the price they can realise.

Then there's the fact that some people would be more inclined to buy original if the price deficit weren't as great, meaning that there'd be fewer people buying at the reduced price.

Sure, there'll always be a few people who refuse to buy originals on some sort of ideological basis or for other reasons, but generally speaking rampant piracy is a symptom of a disconnect between the perceived value of a product by the consumer and the asking price.

To be honest though, I'm not sure how many real sales are lost to piracy, I'm in a limited budget right now, but I'd never have bought a Fellblade at full retail, but on sale from a recaster brought it within the scope of what I could afford. So I'm skeptical about a) the impact piracy has on GW's bottom line and b) how many people really buy recasts deliberately and regularly, as a % of the overall GW buying public.

If it does have an impact though, it will essentially boil down to 2 things - poor perceived value and poor PR.

 General Kroll wrote:
It's amazing the amount of twisted logic and over explanation people are going to in this thread to justify recasting, selling and buying.

Whether you like GWs business practices or not, it's still theft. Dont try and pass it off as anything else.

I've been sold recasts on eBay in the past. And damn right I've used the grievance system to report the donkey-cave who sold them to me. I'm not going to pay good money for your shoddy knock offs.

How is it theft? The recasters didn't steal anything tangible from anyone unless they, using another poster's example, stole the models they recasted. What they're doing is using other people's images without permission which falls under copyright laws.

As for my opinion on the matter? I really, really, really don't care. I am of the opinion that a sale going to a recaster isn't necessarily a lost sale for the actual seller of the model because some people just wouldn't buy it for the actual price. And in some cases people who buy recasts end up buying legitimately anyway. It's silly to think that $1000 in sales of recast space marines equates to $1000 in lost sales for Games Workshop.

(For the record, I don't buy recasts. I like Forge World and I want to support them)

Trying to price to beat recasts is a fool's errand. Its like beating piracy of music and movies. You need a way to beat them in accessibility and instant gratification. You also need to realize that you will never, ever, 100% eliminate it and instead just accept that at a certain point you can't cut it down anymore.

Simply put, people are lazy. The success of Netflix,Hulu, Spotify, etc. Points to this. I could easily get my music for free and illegally rip TV shows if I trolled download sites, but why would I bother when I can get just as good quality "instantly" with a streaming service to any device i own for the price of a burger every month? If someone could figure out a similar system for games you'd see piracy fall off there too.

Simply put the main way to beat piracy is to make the models accessible. Price is a factor in this, as GW has seen, but it also has to do with ease of getting the models and making them available. GW's situation is kind of unique in that price does in fact play a part in it, and the odds of a person buying recast increases as that price goes up. For example, I would imagine Australians are far more likely to buy recasts than Americans, because Americans get the models almost half price.

Additionally, recasting of OOP models would sharply drop if they were just available. Recasting Epic would be next to nill if GW still made it. Recasting of vintage models would be far lower if they were available at decent prices.etc. etc.

If GW (and to a far lesser extent other companies, as I'd say that all other companies combined would be lucky to be 5% of the recast market) embraced the policies other mediums have, they'd find the problem far smaller. And it's really not that big in terms of actual damage to begin with. They don't need to price match recasters, but a price decrease across the board of say 20%, and the fact that it's actual plastic, with decals, and it'll ship far faster, would be enough to seriously cut down on recasting. Other tricks would be to even out regional prices, bring back or rerelease high demand OOP models, and ironically to make their models more available in more stores.

Fighting recasters like they are now, by refusing to change and just smacking them over the head with a legal sledgehammer is like trying to bail out the Titanic with a bucket. The recording industry had to learn this lesson, Hollywood had to learn this, the Gaming industry is still fighting it (and used games frustratingly enough), and GW will have to learn it too.

 Bookwrack wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
My take is its capitalism and free market.

If GW was reasonably pricing their products there would be no need for a recast market.

You do understand just how ignorant of a statement that is, don't you?

Seriously, yeah, copying something always has less development costs than making something in the first place. That's why there are copyright laws protecting what people/companies have made for a while. (Copyright laws, like a lot of them, have gotten corrupted since, but I believe in the principles.)

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Simply put the main way to beat piracy is to make the models accessible.

But GW has already done this. It's not like the movie/music industry, where piracy offered much greater convenience until the legal business embraced digital sales. Everything GW sells is available online whenever you want to buy it. In fact, legal models are easier to get than recasts since you just go to GW's website and click "buy", instead of having to find where a decent recaster is selling at the moment after all their previous ebay accounts/websites/etc were closed.

And yeah, OOP stuff will still be recast because of availability issues, but there's probably a reason why those models went OOP. If there wasn't enough demand to keep the models in production then the only reason to care about the recasters is IP defense issues, the lost sales are negligible.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
My take is its capitalism and free market.

If GW was reasonably pricing their products there would be no need for a recast market.

You do understand just how ignorant of a statement that is, don't you? It doesn't matter what GW priced their models at, recasts will ALWAYS be significantly cheaper. All the recaster needs is one legitimate model, a casting setup, and resin, do their costs are minimal and quickly recouped. The only way GW could price their models to the point that it wouldn't be worth it to recasters would be if it covered material cost and nothing else.

Except that isn't really true. Technically, yes, it would always be possible to produce a recast for less than the real thing, because there's less overhead involved. But there's also a point where it is no longer worth the recaster investing the time and effort for the price they can realise.

Then there's the fact that some people would be more inclined to buy original if the price deficit weren't as great, meaning that there'd be fewer people buying at the reduced price.

Sure, there'll always be a few people who refuse to buy originals on some sort of ideological basis or for other reasons, but generally speaking rampant piracy is a symptom of a disconnect between the perceived value of a product by the consumer and the asking price.
.

This, in a nutshell. Recasters can't operate a standard webcart without fear of getting it taken down, and GW is always squashing different ebay accounts left, right, and centre. If the difference in price was not so extreme, GW could throttle the recasters with ease. People like it when things are easy to buy, and they'd have no desire (generally speaking) to spend £25 buying a model from a dubious source in China if they could get it for £35 from GW nice and legally. But when that model is £80 from GW....then suddenly it becomes worth putting in a bit more time and energy on their part to track down a recaster.

GW has clearly, with their price policy, decided that recasters do not take a large enough slice of their market pie for it to be worth reducing prices to the point where it would make recasters unviable. They have doubtless calculated that they make more money charging £80 for that model and losing maybe 5-10%(being seriously over-optimistic here) of their sales to China then they would if they reduced that model to £35 and crushed them through direct competition.

Which is entirely their decision to make, and probably the wisest one. So long as they dominate the legal methods of procurement, they dominate the market, and continue to soak up most of the profit. Trying to beat China in a price game would only hurt their company in the long term, I would surmise.

 Ketara wrote:
They have doubtless calculated that they make more money charging £80 for that model and losing maybe 5-10%(being seriously over-optimistic here) of their sales to China then they would if they reduced that model to £35 and crushed them through direct competition.

No, they've calculated that they either sell it at £80 or go bankrupt. We know GW's profit margins, and they aren't very impressive. Cutting prices in half would mean selling every model at a loss, very quickly followed by the death of the company.

I have to agree with the dude who said that if prices were cheaper for gw models, recasting would be pointless. Recasting provides an oppurtunity to afford to play the game. Look at the new rules gw is squishing out, it's all about buy buy buy! How could you keep up with that in your local meta, if for example you're a lower class worker solely supporting a wife and three kids? No rich parents to bail you out nothing.
I got.into molding and casting to circumvent spending 1000's on models.

Now I'm into infinity and what do I see? Very affordable 'units'. A hundred bucks and you're playing max point lists. Why recast a $10 'unit' when one is fine, beautiful and affordable? (By unit I mean model, but I'm using the word unit to get across my meaning to the non infinity heretics)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
They have doubtless calculated that they make more money charging £80 for that model and losing maybe 5-10%(being seriously over-optimistic here) of their sales to China then they would if they reduced that model to £35 and crushed them through direct competition.

No, they've calculated that they either sell it at £80 or go bankrupt. We know GW's profit margins, and they aren't very impressive. Cutting prices in half would mean selling every model at a loss, very quickly followed by the death of the company.

Please. No doomsday statements, there's a range of perfectly respectable business options in the middle (God only knows I read about enough of them these days....). We're talking about Forgeworld resin models specifically here for the vast part.

If (in this example) China can produce and ship a copy of a resin Forgeworld model for £25, it won't be costing them more than £15 to make. Games workshop should be at about the same production price (the bulk discount on materials used plus lack of international shipping and paypal fees should roughly cancel out the higher wages on their end).

A resin model costs about £200-£300 to sculpt normally. £400 at the upper end of the market. Tanks and suchlike cost more (because they usually utilise more computer design methods) but costs can be reduced if you're employing people fulltime instead of hiring for piece work. Ergo, GW could easily sell at the £35 mark and make a profit on their Forgeworld items. If they couldn't, then every other miniature manufacturer would already be out of business! What's more, they sell in such bulk that they could recoup the cost of the design/master from across a far larger number of sales than most other manufacturers have the luxury of attempting.

No, any issues of bankruptcy tie into existing and unrelated business issues, such as the desire to subsidise a retail chain, give out above odds dividends for their earnings, and a declining player base/turnover on non-Forgeworld items due to poor market choices. It's not that they wouldn't be making a fair and decent profit on a Forgeworld resin model in that £35 scenario, No, it's that they'd be making a smaller profit per item that can be fed back into subsidising other separate unsustainable business decisions and screwups.

In which circumstance, it's not the recaster which sank Games Workshop and made them go bankrupt. It's not charging a more affordable, yet still profit making sum that drives them to bankruptcy. No, it's Games Workshop themselves waltzing along the edge of business failure on the backs of their own decisions.