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 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I am almost certain the vast majority of consumers who buy from a company that has subcontracted Prodos do not know it and do not care.

Look I am certain the way they botched both kickstarters their fault or not, has created some bad blood and mind you I got my warzone stuff with two years delay because they insisted writing wrong my address no matter how many times I send it to them (was warzone and AVP the response of the UK office that got dissolved?).

But reading the complains especially about AVP in every thread the name Prodos is mentioned becomes quite frustrating.

It is also pretty frustrating seeing Prodos deliver stuff to everyone except KS backers, and frustrating being lied to.

Again, shining a light on dishonest companies helps the community.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
reading the complains especially about AVP in every thread the name Prodos is mentioned becomes quite frustrating.

Maybe if they delivered stuff to their KS backers (the exact same stuff that they are currently sending out for retail), those complaints would be less common?

Question re: the cost.

The tooling for 6 casts is 350. And if you have one mold for 1x each of 6 minis (0.45/mini = 2.7) at 250 minimum (250*2.7=675), then the total minimum is USD$1,025 for 1500 minis (250*6)?

Then add design costs, packaging, etc. Still seems unrealistically low for a min order. Am I miscalculating?

Its a tool it can have up to 6 models approximately so you could have a tool with 6 different models.

And be about 675 (the costs are estimates and averages after all) for 250 of each of the 6 models.

Seems cheap but does not include the cost of concept art, background and actual sculpting, plus any alterations needed by the process and definitely no shipping costs or packaging.

Seems cheap it is not really cheap, but it is affordable and within the grasp of a small company or a really committed hobbyist and I think the small companies are their target with this offer.

 Fugazi wrote:
The tooling for 6 casts is 350. And if you have one mold for 1x each of 6 minis (0.45/mini = 2.7) at 250 minimum (250*2.7=675), then the total minimum is USD$1,025 for 1500 minis (250*6)?

That isn't entirely accurate. Keep in mind that the 0.46 is based on 6000 shot order, with 6 miniatures per cast for a total 60,000 miniatures. How they got that number isn't entirely made evident although I do think that may including 3d printing costs for masters and shipping. They only show the tooling cost for the mold but say the cost includes the tooling cost and other costs (casting material, 3d printing?, shipping?). We also don't know how many casts a mold lasts, does it last for 250 and they have to retool another? That would be my guess since that is the minimum order.

The actual cost for an order if you are only doing 250, which they didn't explain if that was 250 miniatures (meaning 41/42 casts) or 250 casts (which is 1500 miniatures). However that cost is still a huge step cheaper than doing HIPS or PVC which requires a higher minimum order because of the high costs of tooling. It also is significantly cheaper than just doing multi-piece resin and hiring someone to glue them together to provide a single piece miniature.

Joyboozer wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
I see the AVP stuff available in many places.. were there add-ons that didn't get delivered yet or what? I mean.. if the core game did get delivered and people are missing items then saying they got "nothing" is being melodramatic.

As a G&G backer, Salamander Project, Mercs Recon, Monolith Conan, etc backer.. I know about late KS but you can't call a partially delivered KS a non-delivered.

I also have recieved absolutely nothing.
You seem to make it a habit of defending companies that don't deliver.

Since I'm not a backer and don't have time or energy to follow things that are for backers.. BUT.. I see their stuff in shops yet still hear people talking about not getting anything, I draw conclusions. You assuming that I defend companies that don't deliver is rather pointed and if you're going to say like that, you need to be very specific. If you are talking about Titanforge, I find that hilarious since they have delivered.. as far as I know 100%. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]

 MLaw wrote:
Since I'm not a backer and don't have time or energy to follow things that are for backers..

In reference to AvP the things mostly not delivered yet are wave III. Some orders I believe haven't been shipped because they have a lot more than just wave I or wave II items. I only had wave I and II items and received mine. There are still about 250 backers who haven't received items though but supposedly a 150+ went out. Roughly about 11% still haven't received anything but that number has been going down.

Honestly I think people would be surprised just how many Kickstarters that Prodos has manufactured and have delivered. I'm not saying there aren't issues or that there is definitely some mis-managed business decisions for their own stuff. However as a manufacturer and supplier to other companies there hasn't been as bad of mismanagement. There were quite a few that I didn't even realize were getting stuff from Prodos, most likely because they may have been worried how that may have impacted their own Kickstarter.

That isn't saying there is an excuse, but there is differences in the company from a year ago vs now. If that continues great. If not, then it will become evident fairly quickly but so far on the other business side of things (not their own games) but as a manufacture it has been fairly good. I'm still in a wait and watch though but I'm not about to excuse a viable method of manufacturer completely.

Those figures assume Prodos is actually telling the truth. They've been shown not to do that on quite a few occasions. Honestly, I'd assume a hell of a lot more than ~100 backers still have zilch, TBH.

Literally earlier today, they sent out a KS message to all backers, claiming that everyone who paid their spiffy new blackmail charge before Wednesday had their stuff shipped and should have at least received a tracking number from Prodos. (orders put in thu-fri hadn't been shipped, the rest should be on it's way. Their latest apparent transparent lie.)

Feth, my 'order' was placed on sunday, shortly after the original demand for facilitation payments, and I sure as hell don't have any tracking number yet.

Nothing, nothing they say tracks with observable reality. So honestly, why should we trust the numbers you're naively assuming to be accurate? From what I see, this has been nothing but episode 388212 in Prodos' ongoing web of lies.

It looks really nice - but to TBH - most PVC minis look just fine to me too. It's the cleanup process that makes me hate the material. How hard will this stuff be to prepare for painting?

RULE #1 IS STAY POLITE.

RULE #2 IS STAY ON TOPIC.

Yeah,
Let's stay on topic and stick to the facts.
Prodos are gak company who owe a lot of people.

Panic...

 Panic wrote:
Yeah,
Let's stay on topic and stick to the facts.
Prodos are gak company who owe a lot of people.

Panic...

The topic and facts are that when Prodos casts anything, they do an amazing job and this material seems like a really good advancement in materials and technique. I am looking forward to unintentionally receiving even more things cast by these guys in the future.

 MLaw wrote:
The topic and facts are that when Prodos casts anything, they do an amazing job and this material seems like a really good advancement in materials and technique.

Assuming their claims are honest, which requires trusting a company that seems to be pretty dishonest. I am extremely skeptical of the claim to be able to produce entire models in one piece. Even resin casting and similar methods that allow undercuts still have a limit to what you can do, so how do they get around it? Or do they just put some major constraints on what your model designs can be, much like the old one-piece metal models were really limited in their posing options?

 Peregrine wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
The topic and facts are that when Prodos casts anything, they do an amazing job and this material seems like a really good advancement in materials and technique.

Assuming their claims are honest, which requires trusting a company that seems to be pretty dishonest. I am extremely skeptical of the claim to be able to produce entire models in one piece. Even resin casting and similar methods that allow undercuts still have a limit to what you can do, so how do they get around it? Or do they just put some major constraints on what your model designs can be, much like the old one-piece metal models were really limited in their posing options?

Did you read the article? This isn't Prodos claiming anything. Jake Thornton is reviewing what Prodoss did for Mantic (as I understand it). The models don't look like they were designed for that IMO and Prodos did it anyway and the output looks very crisp to me.
EDIT: I don't think the models he's showing are from Mantic.. but he doesn't work for Prodos.. he's a game designer and the models look like they're on point to me. Moreover, he even does have a disparaging tone towards Prodos at the tail end of his article with his own doubts about Prodos' practices. He does mention that this could be what they need to dig out of their hole or whatever.

The casting could be the revolutionary thing we need to bring casting up with the level of sculpting that can be done now. As miniature sculpting has far outpaced any casting method if this method truly works as they say , I can see a great opening for board game
producers and miniature producers alike and have a much more reasonable way to mass produce miniatures in.

However as many have stated Prodos do have an iffy history, they have done some things very well but at the same time have some major problems that they need to work on to regain trustworthiness. So I am very interested in this but will wait to see how It turns out with
other companies commissioning them first. Also however their are the issues of currency exchange , being their in the UK it will not be as cheap as it first appears , which is not their fault but the over all UK Vat tax system.

In the end I truly want to see this before looking in further but if it is true then without doubt many of us will be contacting them I am sure in the future for these services. however until then we will need to see results from several companies working with them before ourselves would invest in the casting.

The ball is in their park and they can truly knock things out of the field if this is true and they do it right.

I have a strange urge to purchase some of these despite everyting...

For scientific purposes perhaps?

I liked my rather large Space Crusade demon I picked up, which while it wasn't a single piece cast (would be tough considering the size) it was still pretty impressive just for the depth and shaping of the body itself.

Now if they'd just bothered to include all the pieces in the first place...

At least with these single cast ones that would be less of an issue!

Guys either you like it or not, whatever "iffy" history Prodos may have to the backers of their kickstarters is completely irrelevant here.

More so since they have provided manufacturing for kickstarters other companies did in time so far.

If Prodos was unreliable to companies I would understand the connection, but so far all companies using them were quite happy.

Now on the subject the models cast are what it is, I am not sure how one can claim they lie since this is the real thing reviewed by independent sources, please the bias you have is not helping this thread.

Anyway down on the game design subforum we discuss more about it because from the perspective of a company or from the point of somebody wanting to do something professionally this method provides an affordable solution for models especially for "miniature boardgame" projects.

Just ordered a unicast to have a look at it myself.

Erebus Studios wrote:
The casting could be the revolutionary thing we need to bring casting up with the level of sculpting that can be done now. As miniature sculpting has far outpaced any casting method if this method truly works as they say , I can see a great opening for board game
producers and miniature producers alike and have a much more reasonable way to mass produce miniatures in.

However as many have stated Prodos do have an iffy history, they have done some things very well but at the same time have some major problems that they need to work on to regain trustworthiness. So I am very interested in this but will wait to see how It turns out with
other companies commissioning them first. Also however their are the issues of currency exchange , being their in the UK it will not be as cheap as it first appears , which is not their fault but the over all UK Vat tax system.

In the end I truly want to see this before looking in further but if it is true then without doubt many of us will be contacting them I am sure in the future for these services. however until then we will need to see results from several companies working with them before ourselves would invest in the casting.

The ball is in their park and they can truly knock things out of the field if this is true and they do it right.

Prodos are no longer uk based

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Guys either you like it or not, whatever "iffy" history Prodos may have to the backers of their kickstarters is completely irrelevant here.

More so since they have provided manufacturing for kickstarters other companies did in time so far.

If Prodos was unreliable to companies I would understand the connection, but so far all companies using them were quite happy.

Now on the subject the models cast are what it is, I am not sure how one can claim they lie since this is the real thing reviewed by independent sources, please the bias you have is not helping this thread.

Anyway down on the game design subforum we discuss more about it because from the perspective of a company or from the point of somebody wanting to do something professionally this method provides an affordable solution for models especially for "miniature boardgame" projects.

Could you link? I actually might look at this for a game I'm working on. I've got a few minis to get in production first before switching gears but this material seems to answer a barrier I was encountering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CURNOW wrote:

Erebus Studios wrote:
The casting could be the revolutionary thing we need to bring casting up with the level of sculpting that can be done now. As miniature sculpting has far outpaced any casting method if this method truly works as they say , I can see a great opening for board game
producers and miniature producers alike and have a much more reasonable way to mass produce miniatures in.

However as many have stated Prodos do have an iffy history, they have done some things very well but at the same time have some major problems that they need to work on to regain trustworthiness. So I am very interested in this but will wait to see how It turns out with
other companies commissioning them first. Also however their are the issues of currency exchange , being their in the UK it will not be as cheap as it first appears , which is not their fault but the over all UK Vat tax system.

In the end I truly want to see this before looking in further but if it is true then without doubt many of us will be contacting them I am sure in the future for these services. however until then we will need to see results from several companies working with them before ourselves would invest in the casting.

The ball is in their park and they can truly knock things out of the field if this is true and they do it right.

Prodos are no longer uk based

I was not aware of this.. On their Contact Info they still list:
PRODOS Games LTD
Unit 2, Plot 20
Hawkes Drive
CV34 6LX
Warwick
United Kingdom

+48 673 533 839

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Guys either you like it or not, whatever "iffy" history Prodos may have to the backers of their kickstarters is completely irrelevant here.

More so since they have provided manufacturing for kickstarters other companies did in time so far.

If Prodos was unreliable to companies I would understand the connection, but so far all companies using them were quite happy.

Now on the subject the models cast are what it is, I am not sure how one can claim they lie since this is the real thing reviewed by independent sources, please the bias you have is not helping this thread.

Anyway down on the game design subforum we discuss more about it because from the perspective of a company or from the point of somebody wanting to do something professionally this method provides an affordable solution for models especially for "miniature boardgame" projects.

Whether or not you can trust a company to deliver is always relevant.

They can have the greatest casting and manufactory capabilities in the world - but if you do not get your product then that does not matter.

If the good folks that didn't bring us Ice Age Mammals came out with ADW IceAgeCast, would you trust them?

Folks have reason to be wary. *EDIT* It could very well be that the lesson to be learned is... don't work with Fox....

The Auld Grump

If anyone is interested I can record a video showing Nyx (one of the one piece unicast minis) that I picked up at Salute.. although I think BoW also showed off the minis on a recent weekender.

I just want to point out. All prodos issues are with direct kickstarter backers. I have never heard anyone having problems getting their stuff when bought off the web store. As stated before they also deliver in regards to business to business deals.

So I think it's a safe bet to say feel free to order stuff off their webstore, but don't touch their kickstarters with a ten foot pole. This is comeing from someone who was involved with the original warzone kickstarter.

I am looking foreword to up coming mini's that will use using this tech. I would love to hear toughest girls of the galaxy 2 will be using this tech lol.

 MLaw wrote:

Spoiler:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Guys either you like it or not, whatever "iffy" history Prodos may have to the backers of their kickstarters is completely irrelevant here.

More so since they have provided manufacturing for kickstarters other companies did in time so far.

If Prodos was unreliable to companies I would understand the connection, but so far all companies using them were quite happy.

Now on the subject the models cast are what it is, I am not sure how one can claim they lie since this is the real thing reviewed by independent sources, please the bias you have is not helping this thread.

Anyway down on the game design subforum we discuss more about it because from the perspective of a company or from the point of somebody wanting to do something professionally this method provides an affordable solution for models especially for "miniature boardgame" projects.

Could you link? I actually might look at this for a game I'm working on. I've got a few minis to get in production first before switching gears but this material seems to answer a barrier I was encountering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CURNOW wrote:

Erebus Studios wrote:
The casting could be the revolutionary thing we need to bring casting up with the level of sculpting that can be done now. As miniature sculpting has far outpaced any casting method if this method truly works as they say , I can see a great opening for board game
producers and miniature producers alike and have a much more reasonable way to mass produce miniatures in.

However as many have stated Prodos do have an iffy history, they have done some things very well but at the same time have some major problems that they need to work on to regain trustworthiness. So I am very interested in this but will wait to see how It turns out with
other companies commissioning them first. Also however their are the issues of currency exchange , being their in the UK it will not be as cheap as it first appears , which is not their fault but the over all UK Vat tax system.

In the end I truly want to see this before looking in further but if it is true then without doubt many of us will be contacting them I am sure in the future for these services. however until then we will need to see results from several companies working with them before ourselves would invest in the casting.

The ball is in their park and they can truly knock things out of the field if this is true and they do it right.

Prodos are no longer uk based

I was not aware of this.. On their Contact Info they still list:
PRODOS Games LTD
Unit 2, Plot 20
Hawkes Drive
CV34 6LX
Warwick
United Kingdom

+48 673 533 839

People out to 'misrepresent' really need to pay closer attention to the details..

I instantly knew that number wasn't right, as the IDD code for the Uk is +44.

+48?

Poland.

Then I decided to have a quick look at the address.

It's a self storage facility.

but on the bright side they did file their delayed company accounts for the UK business so it is still a 'live' company

Yeah, getting the company struck off the register would likely have been inconvenient.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, getting the company struck off the register would likely have been inconvenient.

IIRC there was some kind of management buy out last year (?) which has seen most/all of the company move to Poland although they have always had a Polish presence, I believe that's where their factory is. It is slightly odd that they still have their UK address but there is nothing inherently sinister about it. The address also isn't for a storage facility; they appear to be pretty standard commercial premises. Their neighbours include a laundry, a 'model maker', a couple of computer services companies and several garages.

They have quite severely mismanaged their 2 kickstarters, specifically their timetable and time management, but aside from that they are still trading and seem to be expanding fairly rapidly. Personally I have had no issues with them, including getting some damaged Warzone stuff replaced after nothing more than a single email.

Hopefully there will come a time when any and all threads related to Prodos won't be spammed with posts relating to the AvP KS.

This technology does seem interesting although only for certain types of miniatures, basically limited use models such as characters. Rank and file minis really require a degree of poseability and I suspect that this technology will be mostly used with single piece models.

IIRC wrong way around, they were always Polish, they just set up a nominal UK presence to be able to run KS projects.

There's been no buyout, at least not according to the Companies House records, they appear to have had a British company secretary who provided their UK address initially, but that person was removed a little while back and replaced by one of the existing directors, and that was when the company address became a self storage unit in Warwickshire.

A link to which is here..

http://www.titanstorage.co.uk/leamington-spa.php
That's the same addres



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd suggest what is happening is there is more than one company using that place as a base.

 Azreal13 wrote:
IIRC wrong way around, they were always Polish, they just set up a nominal UK presence to be able to run KS projects.

There's been no buyout, at least not according to the Companies House records, they appear to have had a British company secretary who provided their UK address initially, but that person was removed a little while back and replaced by one of the existing directors, and that was when the company address became a self storage unit in Warwickshire.

A link to which is here..

http://www.titanstorage.co.uk/leamington-spa.php
That's the same addres



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd suggest what is happening is there is more than one company using that place as a base.

What about the English gentleman who did all the interviews and promotional stuff in regards to bringing back Warzone? He spoke as if he was THE head owner of the company in interviews, not like a British Secretary. From what I understand when people are talking about a buy out, they are talking about his share in the company being bought out by the polish partners. I also recall the youtuber Templarcrusad01 being friends with this gentleman, and why he was able to get the prototypes to review dureing the KS when it was going.

I know by the time of AVP he wasn't quite the "face" of the company like he was before.

"Company Secretary" is an official role, like Director or Chairman, and is an equivalent role in terms of seniority, not someone who does the typing!

The records only state the what, not the why of what happened, so I can't offer anything more. I faintly remember someone publicly asking for someone to act as a nominal base in the UK or US for a company that wasn't based there so they could launch KS projects, can't be certain if they were Prodos or someone else.