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Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





For the purposes of this thread, by "cheesetastic," I mean any of the really "cheesy" things which are ordinarily complained about.

Examples:

1. An army of only Imperial Knights.
2. Min-maxed razorback spam.
3. Flyrant spam
4. Webway portal + wraithguard
5. Librarius conclave + grav centurions

In sum: "the stuff that the people on the internet are constantly complaining about."

Basically, I'm wondering how common these combinations actually are among ordinary players. I've never actually played against most of these. I have a "competitive" friend who plays Eldar lists. He does not own the dark eldar codex.

I've played on the same side of an army composed only of imperial knights (it was a 2 v 2 game; the IK player is a competitive friend of my competitive friend, and my friend was playing an army, the core of which was wraithknights + scatter bikes + farseers (as well as some other units)).

My inclination is to think that a lot of the worst "cheese" is purely the construct of hyper competitive players who are constantly at tournaments.

Anyway:

1. Vote in the poll
2. In the comments below, if you say that your army is cheesy, please indicate what kind of cheese you use.
3. In the comments below, if you say that your army is not cheese, indicate what kind of non-cheese you use.

How common do you think cheese actually is?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/19 17:18:21


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I run a tau list that isn't spammy and has a diverse number of units. I limit myself to less than 3 riptides and only have a single squad of broadsides.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Errrr. Do you mean like...at tournaments or just constantly? I play more than one list. My cheesiness level is directly tied to how much I want to win, which is directly tied to the monetary prize for doing so. So fun events and house games I play interesting fun unoptimized and unusual lists, while GT's and GT practice get the queso treatment, down to scrutinization of every last point in the weeks beforehand.

So do you want that to count as a yes or no?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 17:22:34


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Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






No. I only run 2 units of bikes in my DA, I run a lot of Daemons who aren't psykers (i.e. Plague Bearers, Flesh Hounds), and I play Orks

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Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Jaxler wrote:
I run a tau list that isn't spammy and has a diverse number of units. I limit myself to less than 3 riptides and only have a single squad of broadsides.


I'll allow it. Now that the riptide wing is a thing, 1 or 2 riptides, while I wouldn't want to play against it, probably can't be considered one of the worst "cheese" offenders at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
Errrr. Do you mean like...at tournaments or just constantly? I play more than one list. My cheesiness level is directly tied to how much I want to win, which is directly tied to the monetary prize for doing so. So fun events and house games I play interesting fun unoptimized and unusual lists, while GT's and GT practice get the queso treatment, down to scrutinization of every last point in the weeks beforehand.

So do you want that to count as a yes or no?


I would count that as a yes. All hardcore tournament players should click "yes," even if they have non cheesy lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also wish to stipulate that running a Necron decurion or a space marine battle company does not, in and of itself, constitute cheese for the purposes of this poll.

10 razorbacks does. 10 rhinos does not.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/19 17:33:16


 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




So then you're trying to determine how much cheese is in two environments? One in which cheese is used by people to attempt to win prizes against primarily other cheese, and one in which people use cheese to surprise or steamroll casual opponents? What does the data then prove? Because I feel like environment really does factor in for people that aren't WAAC/TFG, and if you're looking at "ordinary players," maybe we should try to find out the percentage of people that cheese against ordinary players as opposed to cheesing against both ordinary and other competitive types.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 BossJakadakk wrote:
So then you're trying to determine how much cheese is in two environments? One in which cheese is used by people to attempt to win prizes against primarily other cheese, and one in which people use cheese to surprise or steamroll casual opponents? What does the data then prove? Because I feel like environment really does factor in for people that aren't WAAC/TFG, and if you're looking at "ordinary players," maybe we should try to find out the percentage of people that cheese against ordinary players as opposed to cheesing against both ordinary and other competitive types.


In and of itself, the data doesn't prove anything about whether people are WAAC/TFG. That's not what I'm trying to ascertain.

I'm just wondering how common the most commonly complained about combinations actually are.
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Fair enough. I just expect them to be more common in actual tournaments, so I figured this would focus more on things outside of those. Guess I'll answer "yes" considering my 1850 army is going to have a cheesy filling (some scatbikes, some warp spiders, and a wk) with extra stuff I just wanna play around it. I just don't plan to play my tournament army against my friends (unless we agree to a certain power level).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 17:47:00


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 BossJakadakk wrote:
Fair enough. I just expect them to be more common in actual tournaments, so I figured this would focus more on things outside of those. Guess I'll answer "yes" considering my 1850 army is going to have a cheesy filling (some scatbikes, some warp spiders, and a wk) with extra stuff I just wanna play around it. I just don't plan to play my tournament army against my friends (unless we agree to a certain power level).


Have you used the webway portal + wraithguard combination?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

For grins, I brought a 3 Land Raider list, each filled with Assault Terminators when I was playing Black Templars in 5th edition.

It was for a campaign, so that was OK. My IG opponent had no limit of lascannons and some melta-vets.

Grrrr..

:-)

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener







In all fairness, I don't see how flyrant spam is cheesy.

That's pretty much the only good build the 'Nids have. And by good, I mean as close to competitive as we can get, which struggles against most other competitive builds, and falls utterly flat against some of them.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 LemanRuse wrote:


In all fairness, I don't see how flyrant spam is cheesy.


Would you bring it to a casual game?
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

Not really. The cheesiest thing I do is run two squads of Sternguard in Drop Pods with Pedro Kantor. ObSec Sternguard. Beyond that, I do run Honour Guard alongside Pedro and a Librarian in a Pod. They get a buttload of attacks, but that is about it.

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Traditio wrote:
 BossJakadakk wrote:
Fair enough. I just expect them to be more common in actual tournaments, so I figured this would focus more on things outside of those. Guess I'll answer "yes" considering my 1850 army is going to have a cheesy filling (some scatbikes, some warp spiders, and a wk) with extra stuff I just wanna play around it. I just don't plan to play my tournament army against my friends (unless we agree to a certain power level).


Have you used the webway portal + wraithguard combination?


No, and wasn't planning to either. Not really interested in getting DE right now. Plus, wasn't the best way to do that the illegal way anyway? By overfilling the transport capacity of a raider?
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





BossJakadakk wrote:No, and wasn't planning to either. Not really interested in getting DE right now. Plus, wasn't the best way to do that the illegal way anyway? By overfilling the transport capacity of a raider?


Before the FAQ, you could do wave serpent + wraithguard + DE HQ with webway portal.

You could still do it now, minus the wave serpent.

At any rate:

Seriously, though: how common is the DE + Eldar taxi service combination?

I don't think Galef uses it either, does he?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/19 17:58:57


 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Traditio wrote:
BossJakadakk wrote:No, and wasn't planning to either. Not really interested in getting DE right now. Plus, wasn't the best way to do that the illegal way anyway? By overfilling the transport capacity of a raider?


Before the FAQ, you could do wave serpent + wraithguard + DE HQ with webway portal.

You could still do it now. They just couldn't be in a transport.


The idea still doesn't get my juices flowin'.

I am working toward a wraith host as well, though I feel that formation still has its weaknesses (but maybe not as much once I put the w'guard in serpents). I just love the wraith construct models.
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





Traditio wrote:
 LemanRuse wrote:


In all fairness, I don't see how flyrant spam is cheesy.


Would you bring it to a casual game?


If I was playing someone just getting into the hobby, no, I wouldn't.

If the game is casual enough where we both agree to tone down the armies, and not be uber competitive, no, I wouldn't.

If it is a casual pick-up game where I don't know what my opponent is bringing, yes I would.

I guess it depends on the definition of casual, and the communication between the players.

Most of the casual games I play are still pretty competitive. They may be beer and pretzel, but we still want to crush our opponents.

League games and tournaments, you'd better believe I would bring them.

I still don't think the build is cheesy either way.

Honestly, I don't think anything is really cheesy anymore. The game is the game. I think the attitudes of the players can be cheesy, but that's another issue.

I don't even care when people go against fluff anymore.

I'm mellowing in my old age.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/19 18:07:51


 
   
Made in ca
Ghastly Grave Guard





Canada

The poll is silly. There will very rarely be a yes or no answer. Can I build a Razorback spamming Gladius using what I have? Yes, I can. Do I always play it? Well, no, I actually haven't played a game of 7th at all yet. My army *can* do that, but as a whole it consists of

Kantor
4 or 5 Captains
3 Chaplains
3 Librarians
1 Techmarine
1 Honour Guard squad
1-2 Command squads
2 Terminator squads
2 Sterguard Veteran squads
5 Tactical squads (or 11 Combat squads)
2-3 Assault squads (or 4-6 Combat squadded Assault squads)
4-5 Devastator squads (5-man)
6 Rhinos
4 Razorbacks
4 Drop Pods
2 Dreadnoughts
3 Bike squads (5-man)
1 Attack Bike
2-3 Scout squads
1 Landspeeder Storm
2 Land Raiders
1 Landraider Redeemer
3 Predators

So there's a hell of a lot I can do as far as detachments and formations. Could I go cheesy? Hell yes. Would I? That depends on whether I thought I'd be met in kind. I won't be taking a footslogging Tactical spam list against Scatter bikes and Wraithknights.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Right, so a survey of self selected particpants that allows them to apply their own likely wildly variable and subjective criteria on a topic they're almost by definition unable to be objective on.

This thread is almost utterly pointless.

It also misses the key point that the potential for "cheese" lists is symptomatic of a poorly written ruleset, and whether they're actually used is at least partially moot.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in ca
Ghastly Grave Guard





Canada

 Azreal13 wrote:
This thread is almost utterly pointless.

It also misses the key point that the potential for "cheese" lists is symptomatic of a poorly written ruleset, and whether they're actually used is at least partially moot.


Actually, if you're familiar with Traditio's post history you'll know that "cheese" is defined as grav, transports, and essentially anything that has raised the power level since fifth edition or renders top tier fifth edition units obsolete.

For reals. Basically anything that would force him to expand his existing collection in order to compete.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Lord Corellia:

Are any of your captains Smashfether?

Actually, if you're familiar with Traditio's post history you'll know that "cheese" is defined as grav, transports, and essentially anything that has raised the power level since fifth edition or renders top tier fifth edition units obsolete.

For reals. Basically anything that would force him to expand his existing collection in order to compete.


For the purposes of this thread, "cheese" should be understood as the most commonly complained about combinations. My personal cheese bar is set lower, but that's not what the thread is about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 18:07:01


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

I'm familiar, they all have one thing in common..

But, that actually confirms my point, when people get to choose the criteria before they choose how to answer, it renders the answer meaningless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want the thread to have any point, you need to exhaustively list every potential cheese list and/or unit, and qualify under what circumstances and with what frequency the responder uses them.

You'd probably be better off including a qualifier as to whether it was done knowingly or by accident too..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 18:09:39


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
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Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 Azreal13 wrote:
Right, so a survey of self selected particpants that allows them to apply their own likely wildly variable and subjective criteria on a topic they're almost by definition unable to be objective on.

This thread is almost utterly pointless.

It also misses the key point that the potential for "cheese" lists is symptomatic of a poorly written ruleset, and whether they're actually used is at least partially moot.


I'm only a few months into the hobby, and I'm already sick of tirades and campaigns against "cheese." It is, like you say, very subjective, and I got into this to play the models that I think are the coolest. Am I going to modify for power when I play for prizes? Absolutely! Do I want to completely overpower my friends? Not if they want a casual game that day. "Cheese" seems to be something people just equate with the power level of a given unit.

I'm basically at my "feth the haters" stage I guess.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

I have Wraithguard w/D-scythes and Wave Serpents. Does that count?

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Which is partially why I get on Traditio's case every time I see one of his cheese threads pop up, and I shouldn't. Sorry mate. I understand you've got expectations for how you want to play the game, and I've got mine.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





BossJakadakk wrote:I'm only a few months into the hobby, and I'm already sick of tirades and campaigns against "cheese." It is, like you say, very subjective, and I got into this to play the models that I think are the coolest. Am I going to modify for power when I play for prizes? Absolutely! Do I want to completely overpower my friends? Not if they want a casual game that day. "Cheese" seems to be something people just equate with the power level of a given unit.

I'm basically at my "feth the haters" stage I guess.


Again, I wish to point out that this thread is not intended as a "cheese hate" thread. I'm simply wanting to know how common those kinds of lists are.

What spurred this thread is the following:

I was about to play against someone online last night, and he indicated that he was about to use Eldar with dark eldar allies. He had to go offline before the game could actually play.

And it occurred to me: "Wow. That is the first time I've even seen somebody actually do that."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 18:14:57


 
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince





Sticksville, Texas

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm familiar, they all have one thing in common..

But, that actually confirms my point, when people get to choose the criteria before they choose how to answer, it renders the answer meaningless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want the thread to have any point, you need to exhaustively list every potential cheese list and/or unit, and qualify under what circumstances and with what frequency the responder uses them.

You'd probably be better off including a qualifier as to whether it was done knowingly or by accident too..


Agreed. Won't be coming back to this thread.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 TheCustomLime wrote:
I have Wraithguard w/D-scythes and Wave Serpents. Does that count?


For the purposes of this thread, no.

Wave serpents are dedicated transports options for wraithguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm familiar, they all have one thing in common..

But, that actually confirms my point, when people get to choose the criteria before they choose how to answer, it renders the answer meaningless.


It's not meaningless.

A "yes" on the poll indicates: "Yes, I run a combination which I consider to be one of those commonly complained about as cheese."

A "no" on the poll indicates: "No, I do not run a combination of which I am aware of complaints as being commonly considered as cheese."

If you want the thread to have any point, you need to exhaustively list every potential cheese list and/or unit, and qualify under what circumstances and with what frequency the responder uses them.

You'd probably be better off including a qualifier as to whether it was done knowingly or by accident too..


You're committing Loki's fallacy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 18:16:06


 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Traditio wrote:
BossJakadakk wrote:I'm only a few months into the hobby, and I'm already sick of tirades and campaigns against "cheese." It is, like you say, very subjective, and I got into this to play the models that I think are the coolest. Am I going to modify for power when I play for prizes? Absolutely! Do I want to completely overpower my friends? Not if they want a casual game that day. "Cheese" seems to be something people just equate with the power level of a given unit.

I'm basically at my "feth the haters" stage I guess.


Again, I wish to point out that this thread is not intended as a "cheese hate" thread. I'm simply wanting to know how common those kinds of lists are.

What spurred this thread is the following:

I was about to play against someone online last night, and he indicated that he was about to use Eldar with dark eldar allies. He had to go offline before the game could actually play.

And it occurred to me: "Wow. That is the first time I've even seen somebody actually do that."


Yeah, and I came in to the thread like "NUH UH he better not be on my jive!" That's on me, assuming and all. But as far as anything, I really think it's less common outside of tournaments and WAAC dudes.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Traditio wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
I have Wraithguard w/D-scythes and Wave Serpents. Does that count?


For the purposes of this thread, no.

Wave serpents are dedicated transports options for wraithguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm familiar, they all have one thing in common..

But, that actually confirms my point, when people get to choose the criteria before they choose how to answer, it renders the answer meaningless.


It's not meaningless.

A "yes" on the poll indicates: "Yes, I run a combination which I consider to be one of those commonly complained about as cheese."

A "no" on the poll indicates: "No, I do not run a combination of which I am aware of complaints as being commonly considered as cheese."

If you want the thread to have any point, you need to exhaustively list every potential cheese list and/or unit, and qualify under what circumstances and with what frequency the responder uses them.

You'd probably be better off including a qualifier as to whether it was done knowingly or by accident too..


You're committing Loki's fallacy.


No I'm not, I'm not arguing it can't be defined, I'm saying you haven't defined it.

Your poll question is simply "is your army cheddar?"

There's none of the qualification you've tried to retrospectively shoehorn in. You're also assuming that people in different parts of the world, or even different parts of the internet, complain about the same things.


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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