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Martel732 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."

IOW: "assume that I'm not bringing a very good C:SM army and will not improve it, but my opponents are all bringing their standard competitive lists". What exactly do you think you are proving here?

As I said, he turned them into BA and then wonders why they are bad.

I'd say that's actually worse than BA. He's proposing an army of basic marines while BA can take upgrades to make them slightly less bad.

pm713 wrote:I'd say that's actually worse than BA. He's proposing an army of basic marines while BA can take upgrades to make them slightly less bad.

And yet you complain about 10 free rhinos.

Shame on you.

It's not just 10 free Rhinos. It's everything being obj sec as well. And those Rhinos can be razorbacks, too.

Is the Gladius cheese? I'd say it's minor cheese. It's not going to table anyone by turn 3, but there are many scenarios where it just wins, and the opponent can do nothing about it. The best cheese tables, because tabling is a sure fire win, regardless of anything else.

Traditio wrote:
"I am going to ask you a simple question:

Suppose player A runs:

A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marines without jump packs.
3 scout squads
10 rhinos

Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry.

How would he do against the point equivalence of tau?

Eldar?

Imperial Guard?

Dark Eldar?"

Assume:

1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it.
2. The most common "competitive" to "semi-competitive" lists for the armies I've proposed for comparison.

I don't recall you specifying the armies the first time around, aside from casually dismissing Chaos Space Marines because reasons.

Now, what kind of points are we playing here?
Why am I taking Scouts? They're not part of a Gladius. Why can't I take any auxiliary I wish?
Why am I taking Assault Marines instead of Bikes?
Why am I not allowed grav?

Just because you hamstring yourself being stubborn and pig-headed doesn't mean everyone will or has to. This question essentially amounts to "if someone takes my army, will they beat a phantom army from one of a couple of factions with no other data provided?"

Are the opponents allowed to use formations?
Can they use their most potent weapons?
Are they allowed heavy armour?
Are they allowed flyers?
Are they allowed monstrous/ gargantuan creatures?

If any of all of the above are "no" then why not?

You do realize that formations are give and take right? OF COURSE they are restrictive. They give a benefit at the cost of requiring you to take certain combinations. Would I typically take 6 Tactical Squads? No, usually 2 or 3 unless it was a high points game. Would I pay for a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod? Absolutely, in all my lists I do.

I understand what you're getting at: no one would use this list without the free buffs, so it couldn't be considered overpowered or broken. I find that patently false. It's not just the free transports that make it strong or win games. It's the special rules that come with them and apply to both them and every other unit in the force. In an objective-based game, allowing all 20 of your units to take and hold an objective is immensely powerful. It essentially acts as paper to the rock of the common Deathstar tournament list: by covering everything, they simply cannot use their significant but highly focused weight to punch through. Paper covers rock.

Be polite. --Janthkin

I say no simply because my ravenwing has a black knight squad OR a command squad. Also I use only ONE source, no superfriends

I play the army that gives me the best chance to win. Simple as. Complaining about cheese around me gets you as far as complaining about cheese in a real battle.

TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote:
I play the army that gives me the best chance to win. Simple as. Complaining about cheese around me gets you as far as complaining about cheese in a real battle.

You should select "yes" for the poll option.

Traditio wrote:

TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote:
I play the army that gives me the best chance to win. Simple as. Complaining about cheese around me gets you as far as complaining about cheese in a real battle.

You should select "yes" for the poll option.

Playing with the best chance of winning doesn't necessarily imply they use cheesy units or imply they should answer "Yes" to your poll.

Traditio wrote:

TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote:
I play the army that gives me the best chance to win. Simple as. Complaining about cheese around me gets you as far as complaining about cheese in a real battle.

You should select "yes" for the poll option.

How do you know whether he did or did not?

Regardless, once again cheese cannot be clearly defined. It is up to the two individual players and highly dependent on the circumstances.

Let me ask you a question:

If my opponent says to me "alright, you bring your nastiest most competitive list and I'll do the same." would it be cheesy for either of us to use a Superfriends Deathstar? Or the Eldar Aspect Shrine detachment? See? Against a similarly powerful list it isn't all that cheesy. In a pick up game against an opponent with a fun list it is what you would call cheese. I wouldn't blame the army or the Codex though. I'd blame the opponent for being a prick.

I don't own a cheesy army. I did own a slightly Edam-esque Space Marine force for a few months before 7th dropped. I'm now at the stage where I don't know where I fit in at all after table flipping and making the concious decision to try other game systems for a while

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't own a cheesy army. I did own a slightly Edam-esque Space Marine force for a few months before 7th dropped. I'm now at the stage where I don't know where I fit in at all after table flipping and making the concious decision to try other game systems for a while

I'm not entirely sure what the bolded means. Would you go into greater detail?

Traditio wrote:Sgt. Smudge:

I only wish to note that you've refused to answer the question as I've presented it. I have no further comments on the subject.

I answered your question realistically. If it's not realistic, how good of a question is it?
I'll post it again if you want to see it.

Traditio wrote:
"I am going to ask you a simple question:

Suppose player A runs:

A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads Or grav centurions, if they want a better chance at winning.
2 assault marines without jump packs. Not up to me to determine how this guy plays, but I don't think they make a wise move.
3 scout squads Why scouts?
10 rhinos Why not Razorbacks or Drop Pods? I should be able to choose what I want - if you're hypothetically giving this list to me.

Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry. Why not grav? They're missing out on a very effective tool - it would be akin to asking a Guard player not to run any Barrage weapons, Leman Russes or Infantry blobs... oh wait a minute...

How would he do against the point equivalence of tau? Depends what they brought. All Vespids? All Crisis? You cannot generalise an army.

Eldar? Due to the high standard of nearly all Eldar units, this is a little more like what your biased question is leading towards. However, I only have to assume the Eldar player, in my hypothetical situation, is fielding Guardian spam. Hence my point, You cannot generalise.

Imperial Guard? Is this your idea of what Imperial Guard should be (aka - nothing you don't like) or what they are? Again - I cannot say. I need lists.

Dark Eldar? List needed."

Basically, you have shown your prejudice and blatant disregard for diversity in this. You've not considered the possible make-up of the lists, the victory conditions, and various other factors.

The fact that Sgt. Smudge has met this posting of mine with silence speaks volumes. Yes. It speaks volumes about the fact I am human and actually require sleep. Next time, consider that not everyone is the same as you?

You've removed all options from list creation. Let me build the list as how I would play it, not how you want me to. I have the options, and I'll take them - if I had to pay for those Rhinos, I'd rather take Drop Pods, because I dislike the idea of a swarm of Rhinos, and would rather imagine my Battle Company descending into battle via a flight of Drop Pods.
If I were to use this same tact, imagine I gave you a list, comprising only of Vespid and Crisis suits with no guns. How fair would that be?

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" and is not using grav weaponry."

Why would you not use grav?

"Assume:

1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."

Why should I assume that? You're asking someone to play a game against a (presumably) competitive opponent with a hand tied behind their back. How is this an accurate representation of Space Marine strength. Now, if your experiment was asking about the various special and heavy weapons marines can deploy and the inherent lack of internal balance with them, I would have no issue. However, you are measuring the effectiveness of the Battle Company alone, not it's weapons.

Traditio wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't own a cheesy army. I did own a slightly Edam-esque Space Marine force for a few months before 7th dropped. I'm now at the stage where I don't know where I fit in at all after table flipping and making the concious decision to try other game systems for a while

I'm not entirely sure what the bolded means. Would you go into greater detail?

I'm pretty sure it means cheesey.

Traditio wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't own a cheesy army. I did own a slightly Edam-esque Space Marine force for a few months before 7th dropped. I'm now at the stage where I don't know where I fit in at all after table flipping and making the concious decision to try other game systems for a while

I'm not entirely sure what the bolded means. Would you go into greater detail?

Hehe sorry, European comment. Edam is a semi-hard Dutch cheese that's relatively popular (along with Gouda and Emmental).

So I meant I had a semi-hard cheesy army (moderately cheesy)

@Sgt_Smudge: there's no pointtrying to argue with the OP... Far as he's concerned, 10 free Obsec av11 boxes are entirely fair and balanced, but the second a fluffy Tzeentch Daemon army summons a single unit, the game is 'broken, broken, broken', and the Daemon player should be ashamed of themselves for playing such a filthy, gouda mess.
(and for added lols, those Horrors w/Tzherald are designed for assaults, which they're actually quite horrible at, but I can't help but find the occasional S6 flailing pool noodles hilarious!)

Martel732 wrote:
It's not just 10 free Rhinos. It's everything being obj sec as well. And those Rhinos can be razorbacks, too.

Is the Gladius cheese? I'd say it's minor cheese. It's not going to table anyone by turn 3, but there are many scenarios where it just wins, and the opponent can do nothing about it. The best cheese tables, because tabling is a sure fire win, regardless of anything else.

It auto wins vs deathstars and thats a good thing. Deathstars are lame as hell.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not just 10 free Rhinos. It's everything being obj sec as well. And those Rhinos can be razorbacks, too.

Is the Gladius cheese? I'd say it's minor cheese. It's not going to table anyone by turn 3, but there are many scenarios where it just wins, and the opponent can do nothing about it. The best cheese tables, because tabling is a sure fire win, regardless of anything else.

It auto wins vs deathstars and thats a good thing. Deathstars are lame as hell.

I generally agree with that. That's why I don't do much bitching about the Gladius.

My Iron Warriors is a Black Legion Chosenwing Spam followed by 2 Sicarians, 2 Vindys, and a Typhon( two force orgs ftw) at 1850. Or in ITC, I sub out the Typhon for a Fire Raptor and a Hell Blade.

You tell me if It's cheddar.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
My Iron Warriors is a Black Legion Chosenwing Spam followed by 2 Sicarians, 2 Vindys, and a Typhon( two force orgs ftw) at 1850. Or in ITC, I sub out the Typhon for a Fire Raptor and a Hell Blade.

You tell me if It's cheddar.

Chaos without 5 demon princes? id say that's not very cheesy

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Why should I assume that? You're asking someone to play a game against a (presumably) competitive opponent with a hand tied behind their back.

That's exactly my point.

If we don't take psykers, grav or drop pods into account, running a battle company means playing with one hand tied behind your back. You need the free transports to even things out.

That's why it's not cheesy. There's nothing cheesy about a battle company without transports. In fact, you're playing at a handicap.

We can then tart talking about librarians, grav and drop pods, but that' not an issue with the battle company as such.

So you're saying if you voluntarily play with one hand behind your back, you're playing with one hand behind your back?

Yeesh, your arguments are diabolical.

 Azreal13 wrote:
So you're saying if you voluntarily play with one hand behind your back, you're playing with one hand behind your back?

Yeesh, your arguments are diabolical.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/690891.page

This, plus 5 "free" rhinos, is my army list.

Let us suppose I had 10 of them.

Please, stare at your computer with a straight face, and try, with a serious facial expression, to tell me that my army list is cheesy.

Tau are cheesy army. The army I field is not cheesy.

What do I answer in the poll? Also, what is the point of this poll?

Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Why should I assume that? You're asking someone to play a game against a (presumably) competitive opponent with a hand tied behind their back.

That's exactly my point.

If we don't take psykers, grav or drop pods into account, running a battle company means playing with one hand tied behind your back. You need the free transports to even things out.

That's why it's not cheesy. There's nothing cheesy about a battle company without transports. In fact, you're playing at a handicap.

We can then tart talking about librarians, grav and drop pods, but that' not an issue with the battle company as such.

Somehow I don't think you would be willing to extend that "logic" to the xenos, or even fellow imperials like guard. Guard get free chimera for every squad they have to take in a Cadian Battlegroup? Free Ork Trukks in a Green Tide? (All with obj sec even transports...). Say yes? Or make excuses? What will it be?

SolarCross wrote:Somehow I don't think you would be willing to extend that "logic" to the xenos, or even fellow imperials like guard. Guard get free chimera for every squad they have to take in a Cadian Battlegroup? Free Ork Trukks in a Green Tide? (All with obj sec even transports...). Say yes? Or make excuses? What will it be?

1. I've actually made the proposal that orks should get free trukks assuming a similar ork formation. Check my posting history in the proposed rules sub-forum.

2. I don't know enough about the Cadians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asura Varuna wrote:
Tau are cheesy army. The army I field is not cheesy.

What do I answer in the poll?

"No."

Also, what is the point of this poll?

I like data.

No, but I'd say that many of my armies can be tricky to play against. For example my Eldar army is mostly wraith-units, so pretty durable, but low in quantity. Same with my Dark Angels army really, as most of the units I use are Deathwing, so again durable but low quantity.

I'd say that neither is cheesy as the low quantity of models is a major weakness and most people don't think terminators are up to much these days, so if I played in a more competitive environment high volumes of AP3 and AP2 would make short work of both armies. Since I play more casually though I can hit pretty hard, but every loss is significant, so I'd say it works out about even in the end most of the time.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:I'd say that's actually worse than BA. He's proposing an army of basic marines while BA can take upgrades to make them slightly less bad.

And yet you complain about 10 free rhinos.

Shame on you.

I'm going to need an explanation. You're making less sense than normal.

Traditio wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
So you're saying if you voluntarily play with one hand behind your back, you're playing with one hand behind your back?

Yeesh, your arguments are diabolical.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/690891.page

This, plus 5 "free" rhinos, is my army list.

Let us suppose I had 10 of them.

Please, stare at your computer with a straight face, and try, with a serious facial expression, to tell me that my army list is cheesy.

So we're not discussing a GSF list done right, we're discussing yours?

Azreal13 wrote:

So we're not discussing a GSF list done right, we're discussing yours?

Again, humor me.

Please.

Accuse my list of being cheese.

And do try to keep a straight face.

Why don't you put your list in here Traditio so we can determine if it has any... cheddar.

nope, fluffy as f***