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I've always liked the look of the MT might have to pick that box set up, I worked it out at around 300 points, would making a cracking little allied group for my inquisitors/guard. Especially if the formation is any good.

As for the csm box, I wouldn't lose too much heart, GW are going to want to get rid of any remaining csm stock before they give them too major of an upgrade aren't they.

 Bull0 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Mental.

It's pretty obvious why they do this, they're trying to get people into the stores, an exclusive to build excitement around a store birthday is a fairly solid way to do that. It really isn't that hard to understand.

You do that with alternative versions of existing products, with discounts, or with freebies. Not with products that there's a clear and substantial demand for(have you seen the prices for secondhand Gothic & Eldritch copies?) which you should be selling as standard to your whole customer base. The amount of money they're making by drawing people who otherwise wouldn't go into a store for one day, even if we generously assume they buy more than just the sketchbook they went in for and even if we amalgamate such sales from every such anniversary, would almost certainly be dwarfed by the amount they could make by just putting the sodding thing up for order on the BL website.

That's what's mental - they're leaving big wadges of cash on the table so they can execute a strategy that might get them a fraction of one wadge.

I got what you were driving at - you think they should earn what they can from this book without using it to try and drive people to the stores. You've obviously made your mind up that that approach doesn't work, since you have dismissed it as "getting people into the store for one day". I disagree. I just wanted to be sure you actually got it, because you were describing it as "mental" and "leaving money on the table", which is crap. They're trying to shore up the customer base for their stores, because they believe that will make them more money overall than just selling the book the normal way.

I have high hopes for the tempestus start collecting box.
It's a low point cost self sufficient ally for the AM codex.
The command squad (with access to tempestus orders) and tempestus squad are upgradeable and can take dedicated transports.
If the formation rule is moderately decent this box would be full on win for AM players.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's a "Start Collecting" box. If you have all this stuff already 3 times over, you're not the target audience

Yeah, 'cause people who already play sure aren't buying these for the discounts. Nosiree!

So the Start Collecting boxes should be aimed at established players who are buying for the discounts rather than those who are, I dunno... starting?

Aimed at both ideally.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Aimed at both ideally.

No these are not discount model boxes. GW didn't decide to sell models cheaper. They created these boxes in response to the same start collecting boxes privateer and other model company's have for newer players. It's s cheap entry point to begin an army with an HQ troop and vehicle, not the skyhammer bundle or whatever else you wanted.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Mental.

It's pretty obvious why they do this, they're trying to get people into the stores, an exclusive to build excitement around a store birthday is a fairly solid way to do that. It really isn't that hard to understand.

You do that with alternative versions of existing products, with discounts, or with freebies. Not with products that there's a clear and substantial demand for(have you seen the prices for secondhand Gothic & Eldritch copies?) which you should be selling as standard to your whole customer base. The amount of money they're making by drawing people who otherwise wouldn't go into a store for one day, even if we generously assume they buy more than just the sketchbook they went in for and even if we amalgamate such sales from every such anniversary, would almost certainly be dwarfed by the amount they could make by just putting the sodding thing up for order on the BL website.

That's what's mental - they're leaving big wadges of cash on the table so they can execute a strategy that might get them a fraction of one wadge.

To be fair they might be able to have their cake and eat it too, by selling it as a special product for a while and then rolling it out full scale later.

gungo wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Aimed at both ideally.

No these are not discount model boxes. GW didn't decide to sell models cheaper. They created these boxes in response to the same start collecting boxes privateer and other model company's have for newer players. It's s cheap entry point to begin an army with an HQ troop and vehicle, not the skyhammer bundle or whatever else you wanted.

Well, it actually seems like GW is trying to sell models cheaper recently. By coming out with Getting Started boxes, and other formation boxes (not one click bundles, those are crap) we are seeing a lot of cases now were you have kits that are more expensive overall, but far cheaper then buying the contents separately- see Space Marine Heroes or on the extreme end, Getting Started- Seraphim. Since they are new boxes, they technically fall outside the limitations of "no discounts" that Kirby penned them in for a while, while getting people to put more money down at the same time as getting more value for that money.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Mental.

It's pretty obvious why they do this, they're trying to get people into the stores, an exclusive to build excitement around a store birthday is a fairly solid way to do that. It really isn't that hard to understand.

You do that with alternative versions of existing products, with discounts, or with freebies. Not with products that there's a clear and substantial demand for(have you seen the prices for secondhand Gothic & Eldritch copies?) which you should be selling as standard to your whole customer base. The amount of money they're making by drawing people who otherwise wouldn't go into a store for one day, even if we generously assume they buy more than just the sketchbook they went in for and even if we amalgamate such sales from every such anniversary, would almost certainly be dwarfed by the amount they could make by just putting the sodding thing up for order on the BL website.

That's what's mental - they're leaving big wadges of cash on the table so they can execute a strategy that might get them a fraction of one wadge.

You assume they never release that elsewhere. When it's more likely it's more of advance copy the stores get. Rest get it later.

gungo wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Aimed at both ideally.

No these are not discount model boxes. GW didn't decide to sell models cheaper. They created these boxes in response to the same start collecting boxes privateer and other model company's have for newer players. It's s cheap entry point to begin an army with an HQ troop and vehicle, not the skyhammer bundle or whatever else you wanted.

I don't think privateer press factored into the decision at all to be honest, if anything they borrowed the concept from the old battleforces.

With that in mind these can be seen a discount boxes, the intent is to provide an easy way to collect a new army, but they are very evidently a collection of army staple miniatures at a serious reduction, hence they will be attractive to veterans too who love a bargain.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Aimed at both ideally.

No! This is the Internet! We must stubbornly pick one black or white answer!

But yeah, both, as you said.

gungo wrote:
GW didn't decide to sell models cheaper.

And yet they are. Are you suggesting it happened by accident?

number9dream wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Mental.

It's pretty obvious why they do this, they're trying to get people into the stores, an exclusive to build excitement around a store birthday is a fairly solid way to do that. It really isn't that hard to understand.

You do that with alternative versions of existing products, with discounts, or with freebies. Not with products that there's a clear and substantial demand for(have you seen the prices for secondhand Gothic & Eldritch copies?) which you should be selling as standard to your whole customer base. The amount of money they're making by drawing people who otherwise wouldn't go into a store for one day, even if we generously assume they buy more than just the sketchbook they went in for and even if we amalgamate such sales from every such anniversary, would almost certainly be dwarfed by the amount they could make by just putting the sodding thing up for order on the BL website.

That's what's mental - they're leaving big wadges of cash on the table so they can execute a strategy that might get them a fraction of one wadge.

To be fair they might be able to have their cake and eat it too, by selling it as a special product for a while and then rolling it out full scale later.

Maybe a soft back general release keeping the hard back limited?

 Bull0 wrote:
I got what you were driving at - you think they should earn what they can from this book without using it to try and drive people to the stores. You've obviously made your mind up that that approach doesn't work, since you have dismissed it as "getting people into the store for one day". I disagree. I just wanted to be sure you actually got it, because you were describing it as "mental" and "leaving money on the table", which is crap. They're trying to shore up the customer base for their stores, because they believe that will make them more money overall than just selling the book the normal way.

They can believe in fairies if they like too, it doesn't make it real.

How many stores have a milestone anniversary in a year? How many people would have the opportunity to visit that store on or around that specific day? How many of those actually want the book? How many of those will actually go to the store given a lot of folk don't enjoy the GW store environment? And how many of that ever shrinking number of people will do anything beyond walk in, buy the book, and walk right back out again?

Even if you put aside the fact they're selling a fraction of the number of copies they would if they just sold the product online, the idea that a faction-specific sketchbook apparently not even tied into a model or codex release for said faction is going to drive a significant amount of traffic into their stores with wallets open is utterly farcical.

I'll bet you a tenner that they could print a few cheapo t-shirts in China for pennies each and give them away for free on these anniversary days, and generate substantially more sales than imposing artificial scarcity on products people actually want to buy but now can't ever will.

tneva82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's a "Start Collecting" box. If you have all this stuff already 3 times over, you're not the target audience

Yeah, 'cause people who already play sure aren't buying these for the discounts. Nosiree!

They might but they aren't main target so they can't expect to not have duplicates of what they have.

If I buy AM I have to accept it has HQ I have no need for. That's the life. Particularly HQ models are generally ones you don't generally need from those boxes if you are veteran player. Regardless of what army.

No surprise chaos isn't better in that than others. Duh.

Ork box has practically worthless nob box nor do they get much use for multiple painboyz either. Loyal marines are likely flooded with termie captains as well. Tyranid box isn't super hyper veteran friendly either. Only so many gargoyles you need and tyranid warriors are junk you likely don't want that many(and those you get plenty in all boxed deals as well). Hive tyrant is good if it contains wings.

Daemon ones are pretty good though for getting multiples.

All the GS boxes come with full sprues, so the Hive Tyrant box has wings. Warriors are used in several formations, as well as Gargoyles. It's probably one of the better Getting Started boxes, not considering in Tyranid's overall lower power level on the competitive scene.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

gungo wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Aimed at both ideally.

No these are not discount model boxes. GW didn't decide to sell models cheaper. They created these boxes in response to the same start collecting boxes privateer and other model company's have for newer players. It's s cheap entry point to begin an army with an HQ troop and vehicle, not the skyhammer bundle or whatever else you wanted.

Well, it actually seems like GW is trying to sell models cheaper recently. By coming out with Getting Started boxes, and other formation boxes (not one click bundles, those are crap) we are seeing a lot of cases now were you have kits that are more expensive overall, but far cheaper then buying the contents separately- see Space Marine Heroes or on the extreme end, Getting Started- Seraphim. Since they are new boxes, they technically fall outside the limitations of "no discounts" that Kirby penned them in for a while, while getting people to put more money down at the same time as getting more value for that money.

Well according to roundtree GW is not lowering prices on models they are offering packages at different price points.
What this means is they are making bundles and forcing you to still spend $80-$200 dollars on these bundles regardless if you need them.
Hence the crying that models in this start collecting box is useless to veterans is dumb. The intent is not to sell models cheaper.
Real world example
Wendy's stopped selling the junior bacon cheeseburger for $1 years ago because they were losing money per sale.
They created the 4 for $4 this year
You are not getting the junior bacon for $1. They are making you buy other items so they make a profit in a bundle regardless if you wanted those chicken nuggets or not.
It's a marketing ploy. You may tell yourself it's models cheaper all you want but in normal business this is not considered a discount. This is a value meal, this is a way to trick dumb people into spending more on items they wouldn't normally buy in the first place. Its not intended to make amazing gameplay cheap formation models for veterans. If a veteran does get more value from it because they don't have those models and intend to use them great but that is neither the intent or the purpose. Welcome to the real world this is how everything works in marketing.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
I got what you were driving at - you think they should earn what they can from this book without using it to try and drive people to the stores. You've obviously made your mind up that that approach doesn't work, since you have dismissed it as "getting people into the store for one day". I disagree. I just wanted to be sure you actually got it, because you were describing it as "mental" and "leaving money on the table", which is crap. They're trying to shore up the customer base for their stores, because they believe that will make them more money overall than just selling the book the normal way.

They can believe in fairies if they like too, it doesn't make it real.

How many stores have a milestone anniversary in a year? How many people would have the opportunity to visit that store on or around that specific day? How many of those actually want the book? How many of those will actually go to the store given a lot of folk don't enjoy the GW store environment? And how many of that ever shrinking number of people will do anything beyond walk in, buy the book, and walk right back out again?

Even if you put aside the fact they're selling a fraction of the number of copies they would if they just sold the product online, the idea that a faction-specific sketchbook apparently not even tied into a model or codex release for said faction is going to drive a significant amount of traffic into their stores with wallets open is utterly farcical.

I'll bet you a tenner that they could print a few cheapo t-shirts in China for pennies each and give them away for free on these anniversary days, and generate substantially more sales than imposing artificial scarcity on products people actually want to buy but now can't ever will.

This is seriously tiresome. A desirable book getting bums into stores is "utterly farcical" but cheapo t shirts getting bums into stores is a good idea? What the hell?

I think you're just pissy that you can't order the book online, and you're trying to legitimise your bad feelings by insisting it's actually an objectively bad business decision. The problem is you don't have any objective evidence, and you dismiss any subjective hypothesis to the contrary while positing your own equally subjective hypothesis. And you're so insistent with it! Awful stuff.

And that's probably enough about that now - perhaps take it to PM if you'd like to continue the conversation there?

Meanwhile here - back on topic please.

I'm not impressed with either bundle and I shan't be purchasing either from my friendly local purveyor of fine models and gaming supplements.

Shan't, I say with emphasis.

I may get one, with the usual 20% off my good hawker of all opiates of plastic offers a loyal customer such as me.

I might have seriously considered the MT one if it had come with the new plastic Techpriest instead of that fugly gakpile excuse of a Commissar. I have no want or need whatsoever for a Taurox, so the HQ choice is the make-or-break on that one for me. (as I'd be using the Scions as Traitors/Cultists)

Experiment 626 wrote:
I might have seriously considered the MT one if it had come with the new plastic Techpriest instead of that fugly gakpile excuse of a Commissar. I have no want or need whatsoever for a Taurox, so the HQ choice is the make-or-break on that one for me. (as I'd be using the Scions as Traitors/Cultists)

Why would it have come with the Techpriest?

MT can't take Techpriests. They have two HQ options; Commissar and Scion Command Squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I might have seriously considered the MT one if it had come with the new plastic Techpriest instead of that fugly gakpile excuse of a Commissar. I have no want or need whatsoever for a Taurox, so the HQ choice is the make-or-break on that one for me. (as I'd be using the Scions as Traitors/Cultists)

Why would it have come with the Techpriest?

MT can't take Techpriests. They have two HQ options; Commissar and Scion Command Squad.

The skitarrii normally can't take a Dominus last I checked, but their box formation permits it

MacMuckles wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I might have seriously considered the MT one if it had come with the new plastic Techpriest instead of that fugly gakpile excuse of a Commissar. I have no want or need whatsoever for a Taurox, so the HQ choice is the make-or-break on that one for me. (as I'd be using the Scions as Traitors/Cultists)

Why would it have come with the Techpriest?

MT can't take Techpriests. They have two HQ options; Commissar and Scion Command Squad.

The skitarrii normally can't take a Dominus last I checked, but their box formation permits it

Skitarii have no HQ option, so that one makes sense.

Wanting the new Techpriest in the MT box is just ridiculous. If E626 had said "I wish the AM box had included the new Techpriest", I'd wholeheartedly agree with that. That box really deserved the Techpriest.

 Kanluwen wrote:

MacMuckles wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I might have seriously considered the MT one if it had come with the new plastic Techpriest instead of that fugly gakpile excuse of a Commissar. I have no want or need whatsoever for a Taurox, so the HQ choice is the make-or-break on that one for me. (as I'd be using the Scions as Traitors/Cultists)

Why would it have come with the Techpriest?

MT can't take Techpriests. They have two HQ options; Commissar and Scion Command Squad.

The skitarrii normally can't take a Dominus last I checked, but their box formation permits it

Skitarii have no HQ option, so that one makes sense.

Wanting the new Techpriest in the MT box is just ridiculous. If E626 had said "I wish the AM box had included the new Techpriest", I'd wholeheartedly agree with that. That box really deserved the Techpriest.

You can make a Scion Command Squad anyways, and throwing in a Techpriest in place of (yet another) Commissar, would then allow for GW to double down and murder the wallets of IG players with two SC sets.

Besides, I don't think I've seen an actual MT codex in my local GW store for over 2 years now! I know the box contains the special formation rules, but really, these sets are golden for staff to push codex sales...
"Yeah this big box comes with rules for using everything in it, but if you add on this book here, you also get ALL the rules for everything else on this shelf here that you can add onto this set once it's all done!"

Or hell, you could suggest the MT box alongside an IG box and sell the codex by pointing out that the collective rules for both sets are all in the IG codex.

gungo wrote:
What this means is they are making bundles and forcing you to still spend $80-$200 dollars on these bundles regardless if you need them.

Who is forcing you or me or anyone else to buy? From seeing how GW profits and sales are not as big as they once were it seems a lot of people are not buying. So who is being forced?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

MacMuckles wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I might have seriously considered the MT one if it had come with the new plastic Techpriest instead of that fugly gakpile excuse of a Commissar. I have no want or need whatsoever for a Taurox, so the HQ choice is the make-or-break on that one for me. (as I'd be using the Scions as Traitors/Cultists)

Why would it have come with the Techpriest?

MT can't take Techpriests. They have two HQ options; Commissar and Scion Command Squad.

The skitarrii normally can't take a Dominus last I checked, but their box formation permits it

Skitarii have no HQ option, so that one makes sense.

Wanting the new Techpriest in the MT box is just ridiculous. If E626 had said "I wish the AM box had included the new Techpriest", I'd wholeheartedly agree with that. That box really deserved the Techpriest.

You can make a Scion Command Squad anyways, and throwing in a Techpriest in place of (yet another) Commissar, would then allow for GW to double down and murder the wallets of IG players with two SC sets.

Why would I buy the Scion box when I can buy a Tech Command set instead, and get something that can at least build a part of the Cadian formations--or Pask?

$75 for a Leman Russ and Techpriest(a requirement in the Emperor's Wrath artillery company, the superheavy triple formation, and the basic Leman Russ formation) versus $85 for a full sized Scion squad or two min sized squads, a Taurox, and a Commissar(or in your example) or a Techpriest.

One of those two will actually see table time. It, sadly, isn't the Scions most of the time.

Besides, I don't think I've seen an actual MT codex in my local GW store for over 2 years now! I know the box contains the special formation rules, but really, these sets are golden for staff to push codex sales...
"Yeah this big box comes with rules for using everything in it, but if you add on this book here, you also get ALL the rules for everything else on this shelf here that you can add onto this set once it's all done!"

The MT codex went direct only like the month after it came out. Hell, I don't think it actually was a stock product to begin with. I know I never saw them on the shelves at my LGW.

Or hell, you could suggest the MT box alongside an IG box and sell the codex by pointing out that the collective rules for both sets are all in the IG codex.

They're not though. The MT box is probably geared towards you running it as Militarum Tempestus; hence them calling it a Scions set.

The Scions have their own unique set of Orders, which make Scions actually kinda/sorta playable.

Davor wrote:

gungo wrote:
What this means is they are making bundles and forcing you to still spend $80-$200 dollars on these bundles regardless if you need them.

Who is forcing you or me or anyone else to buy? From seeing how GW profits and sales are not as big as they once were it seems a lot of people are not buying. So who is being forced?

GW profits and sales are up from last year. By forcing I'm saying they are bundling stuff you don't need with stuff you may want. You are forced to get the entire package together and can't choose to take one part at a discount Or you can buy individual parts seperately at full retail.

gungo wrote:

Davor wrote:

gungo wrote:
What this means is they are making bundles and forcing you to still spend $80-$200 dollars on these bundles regardless if you need them.

Who is forcing you or me or anyone else to buy? From seeing how GW profits and sales are not as big as they once were it seems a lot of people are not buying. So who is being forced?

GW profits and sales are up from last year. By forcing I'm saying they are bundling stuff you don't need with stuff you may want. You are forced to get the entire package together and can't choose to take one part at a discount Or you can buy individual parts seperately at full retail.

That's a bit of a broad assumption isn't it? What doesn't appeal to one person, will appeal to another. At the end of the day, what they're trying to accomplish, is a lower point of entry for the new blood in the hobby with some nice models. New players will generally have, at best, fleeting knowledge of GW stuff and no idea of what is or isn't "competitive". That's all these bundles are- a foot in the door.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

gungo wrote:

Davor wrote:

gungo wrote:
What this means is they are making bundles and forcing you to still spend $80-$200 dollars on these bundles regardless if you need them.

Who is forcing you or me or anyone else to buy? From seeing how GW profits and sales are not as big as they once were it seems a lot of people are not buying. So who is being forced?

GW profits and sales are up from last year. By forcing I'm saying they are bundling stuff you don't need with stuff you may want. You are forced to get the entire package together and can't choose to take one part at a discount Or you can buy individual parts seperately at full retail.

That's a bit of a broad assumption isn't it? What doesn't appeal to one person, will appeal to another. At the end of the day, what they're trying to accomplish, is a lower point of entry for the new blood in the hobby with some nice models. New players will generally have, at best, fleeting knowledge of GW stuff and no idea of what is or isn't "competitive". That's all these bundles are- a foot in the door.

They are a bloody good foot in the door at that. When you think each box offers a significant discount, and gives you an army to play out of the box.