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@OP, besides all this bickering going on, here's what I'll say: buy, build, and paint the units you like. Field an army based off of those. Go out and play and have fun. One of the worst games I played was one I won because of who I was playing (I wasn't playing as eldar). If you and your opponent have fun, then that's what it's all about. Buy the models you like and build a feasible army. Play it. Change your list based off of your results and what you'd like to change.

 Don Savik wrote:
For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule)

And funny thing is you can house rule those yourself easily if you want to give your opponents better time. You don't even need your opponents permission

Current players would probably be slapping their heads seeing how I built my eldars this week. Bikes(3) had shuriken catapults and shuriken cannon(1) People would be screaming "where's the scatter lasers!" (well answer: I can't field them. Rules don't allow them. Scatter lasers on bikes is too modern invention)


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pm713 wrote:
I think there is a reason actually. In the last book GW seemed to really start pushing rules to better reflect fluff with formations, aspect special rules and such. D weapons are supposed to be the ultimate kind of weapon. Distort weapons literally open a portal to another dimension and get you sucked into it. Seems like D fits that. So they made rules reflect fluff better. Then absolutely messed it up and forgot to see if it was balanced. Like idiots.

It also went more akin to how they were before. They seem to take lots of hints from 2nd ed where wraithcannon penetrated vechiles automatically and non-vechiles had 50-50 chance of either flat out dying(teaches you from loading up on expensive characters!) or getting thrown around somewhere by getting randomly moved a bit.

What's funny is that the Eldar uber weapons suck against the bottom tier armies of Orks & Guard. Firing Wraithguard at 6-pt Guardsmen and Boyz is a total waste. Same with nuking a Trukk or Chimera.

OTOH, if you're up against Necrons, load up on the D weapons - they deserve it. Same thing if they're bringing SMs, Knights, Tau or KDK. Those are top tier Codices with strong formations, and they deserve whatever you throw at them.

In my case, if I know I'm playing a soft opponent, I can always shelve my Eldar and break out my CSM or IG. No biggie.

The wraithknight might suck against the ork/IG infantry, but the scatbikes will butcher them.

THATS why eldar are considered so cheesy, they can easily cover every single scenario.



Anyway, to avoid a cheesy Eldar list just follow 4 easy steps:
-Avoid wraithknigh
-Avoid scatterbikes (in fact, avoid bikes at all if possible)
-Avoid warp spiders
-Avoid mono-unit formations (as in, any formation that is just multiple copies of the same unit), if you take aspect shrine take each unit from a different aspect.

With these four guildlines, you can practically avoid almost any cheese in the eldar codex, while still being able to field powerful armies.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
What's funny is that the Eldar uber weapons suck against the bottom tier armies of Orks & Guard.

Yeah I am having a blast fighting eldar armies with my orks. All those silly eldar players who are shooting D weapons at my grots ; )

But in all seriousness. No sane eldar player will be shooting their anti armour weapons against boys. They will one shot their transports with it and use it to obliterate the heavy armour in a few rules of shooting. The rest of their high rate of fire anti infantry weapons are perfect at murdering orks and low av vehicles, while their superior movement makes sure that they don't get in assault.


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To be fair. This tactic used to work perfectly in the 5th edition , but the current meta of high str or re-roll to wound high rate of fire weapons makes it less feasible. Even the lowly eldar guardian, dire avenger are a bane of most ork units and the popular spiders and bikes make it even worse.


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Note this doesn't make it so that you can't make a non cheesy eldar army. It just states that orks have a hard time vs most eldar armies ; )

Yes you can make a non cheesy Eldar army no problem, anyone who tells you otherwise has a chip on their shoulder and a large stick up the... well yeah, you can probably see that I'm a tad frustrated with some of these posts.

In anycase, avoid scatter lasers in bulk (especially on windrider platforms), Wraithknights, Hornets and multiple units of Warp Spiders. Seer Councils can be played but try and avoid the invisibility and fortune powers, Wraithguard in practice are a huge points sink and got hit very hard from the new draft F&Q so I would argue they are alright where they are, just don't spam the D so often (Wraithblades are fine, go crazy with them if you want).

Feel free to use formations as the majority of the cheese for the Eldar come from their codex entries (with the possible exception of the Aspect host- only non cheesy with mixed or melee units) you will not find anything on the level of the Gladius, Convocation or ripplefire Riptide Wings as long as you avoid the 'trouble units'.


A few interesting builds for you

CC lists

Doom of Mymera battlehost with 3 units of Wraithblades and an Autarch

Aspect host with 3 units Howling Banshees

Legends, Avatar / Jain Zar

Works of Vaul Night Spinners


Footdar lists featuring battlehosts headed by Warlocks, Aspect host of Dark Reaper, Fire Dragons, Swooping hawks (pre update)


CADs with Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents, Night Spinners with some Crimson Hunters for a nice semi competitive TAC list


But to answer your question more directly: Yes and easier than many people would think.

Wyldhunt wrote:Wraith lords are odd. They're great in that they're tough enough to ignore strength 3

S4. That's an "8" in the toughness portion of the statline. They ignore S4 or less.

Sure, they get a 3+ save against small arms fire, but many of the weapons with a strength high enough to warrant shooting at them also ignores that save.

My krak missile is wounding a carnifex on a 2. It's wounding a wraithlord on a 4. No, you won't get a 3+ save. You will, however, probably get a 5+ cover.

So I'm hitting on 3s. I'm wounding on 4s. You're saving on 5s.

Even lascannons are only wounding on 3s.

Personally, I'd rather take my chances against the carnifex.

Being able to get toe in cover is nice though.

If by "nice" you mean "complete bull gak," then I agree with you.

The carnifex is considered a pretty bad unit in a pretty bad codex, so the comparison is a bit odd. But speaking as someone who plays with carnifexes about as often as he does wraith lords, I honestly probably get more bang out of my carnifex. The 'fex hits roughly as hard in melee, but he also gets a better hammer of wrath. Brainleech devourers are also probably better for their points than the heavy weapon options on a wraith lord are. The biggest thing, however, is that I find it easier to support my carnifexes than my 'lords. A malanthrope or venomthrope's aura can easily keep my 'fexes alive while I move up the table without costing any "extra" resources. That is to say they can help everyone around them including the 'fexes without having to give up helping my other units. I could theoretically toss psychic buffs on a wraith lord to help him out, but those same buffs are usually needed more by other units. Guide on a squad of guardians or war walkers is more effective than guide on a wraith lord. Tossing fortune on a wraith lord doesn't help as much when you consider that many of the weapons that can hurt him without wounding on 6s also ignore his armor.

You'd rather an upgraded carnifex with devourers over a wraithlord with scatter lasers?

That makes no sense to me. Yes, you might get better cover with the malanthrope or venonthrope...if they survive long enough for it to matter (if that venonthrope survives past turn 1, I'm either having bad rolls, you're having good rolls, or else, you've engaged in some fancy deployments...whenever I play against tyrranids, the venonthropes tend to be a top priority target). The wraithlord, however, has better range (once upgraded) and therefore joins the fight much earlier and is, in its own right, much more durable. Why would you want twin-linked devourers when you could have 8 shots firing from 36 inches away instead?

A wraith lord is okay for his points

OK for his points? Again, only relative to the other bull gak in the eldar codex. Compared to other things that cost roughly 120 points, the wraithlord is just fine.

He's just trash in the eldar codex because the entire codex is bullocks.

So, is this you moving goalposts now that someone has given you an example of a unit (or two, or three or...) that is just fine?

I've seen people playing Carnifexes in the last few years. Haven't seen anyone play a WraithLord. Just sayin'

 Galef wrote:
I've seen people playing Carnifexes in the last few years. Haven't seen anyone play a WraithLord. Just sayin'

I think that speaks more to the quality of alternatives and internal balance considerations.

 Wolfblade wrote:
So, is this you moving goalposts now that someone has given you an example of a unit (or two, or three or...) that is just fine?

And that is surprising...Because?


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 Galef wrote:
I've seen people playing Carnifexes in the last few years. Haven't seen anyone play a WraithLord. Just sayin'

Tyranids are kinda lacking good options for carni. Eldars have them aplenty. Unit A might be worth taking in army X because there simply isn't better but unit B that's better than unit A in army Y isn't worth taking because it's crap within that army.

I'm just wondering why people are ending up having wraithguard in range?
You have a transport packed with D weapons.
Common sense states you pop it quickly.

Slow, short ranged and basic enough save.
Yes, they are toughness 6, but it's not the end of the world.

Either shoot them off the board, tarpit with cheap troops or out manoeuvre them.
Every army can do atleast 1 of the above.




Now, if your dumb enough to park a land raider or such near them then you deserve to have it blown up.






And as a side note, as a Tyranid player please don't compare anything to a fex.
It's shameful.
T6, low wounds, poor save for a walking battering ram, poor initiative, low attacks, need I go on?
Granted they have good strength, but that's about it.
They are also a ton of points for a poor MC.

Yes they can shoot with twin devs, but they also have BS3 and short range.
In CC they are pretty much hopeless as anything worth while as a target will kill them first.

Even with claws or a wrecking ball.





Main Eldar issue is scatter bikes.
It's a cheap troop choice with a nasty set of rules and weapons allowing it to threaten most things in the game.
All while being highly mobile and scoring to boot.

The wraithknight isn't as much of an issue to me, if your only facing 1 of them.
It's when multiples are involved it gets stupid.

 Jackal wrote:
I'm just wondering why people are ending up having wraithguard in range?
You have a transport packed with D weapons.
Common sense states you pop it quickly.

The AV 12 jinking skimmer? The fast vehicle that degrades penetrating hits to glances on 2s?

Is that the transport that we are talking about? That one?

the wraithknight isn't as much of an issue to me, if your only facing 1 of them.

They are 100 points under-costed. Even 1 is a problem, because it means that, for all intents and purposes, I am playing at a 100 point disadvantage (in addition to whatever other OP, under-costed bull gak you brought to the table).


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 Galef wrote:
I've seen people playing Carnifexes in the last few years. Haven't seen anyone play a WraithLord. Just sayin'

With all of the other OP bull gak in the codex, why would you? Why would you take a wraithlord when you have formations that allow you to spam wraithknights?

Why would you want a 120 point heavy weapons platform when you could take the much cheaper scatter bikes?

If wave serpents, scatter bikes and wraithknights didn't exist, wraithlords might see more play. "Just sayin.'"

Edit:

And is nobody going to mention Eldtritch storm? Nobody? Really?

 Traditio wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
I'm just wondering why people are ending up having wraithguard in range?
You have a transport packed with D weapons.
Common sense states you pop it quickly.

The AV 12 jinking skimmer? The fast vehicle that degrades penetrating hits to glances on 2s?

Is that the transport that we are talkingabout? That one?

the wraithknight isn't as much of an issue to me, if your only facing 1 of them.

They are 100 points under-costed. Even 1 is a problem, because it means that, for all intents and purposes, I am playing at a 100 point disadvantage.

I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...

tneva82 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
So, is this you moving goalposts now that someone has given you an example of a unit (or two, or three or...) that is just fine?

And that is surprising...Because?

Not really, I just wanted to call him on it so he can ignore it, like he ignores everything that proves him wrong.

As for on topic: So long as you avoid spamming the broken stuff (i.e. if your opponent is bringing a Knight/riptide/etc, one WK is probably fine, 1 per 3 heavy weapons on bikes, if you choose to take any.)

A 100pt disadvantage huh? Have you played against a Gladius Free Transport spam or Daemon Factory? Armies are getting 300-500+ pts of extra stuff all the time.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

They are 100 points under-costed. Even 1 is a problem, because it means that, for all intents and purposes, I am playing at a 100 point disadvantage.

I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...

Oh Snap!

--

the_scotsman wrote:I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...

The gladius has the potential to be unfair if you use it to spam razorbacks with 5 man squads. I don't think I've ever contested this.

Even in the thread I devoted to it, my argument was that you could get "free" rhinos and drop pods even in 5th and 6th editions if you spammed assault squads without jump packs.

And I also wish to point out that to get those "free" rhinos, drop pods and razorbacks, I have to field 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, 2 assault squads (all of which are commonly recognized as under-performing units), a captain, a chaplain and an auxillary formation.

The eldar player gets a 100 point advantage just by putting a wraithknight model on the table.

the_scotsman wrote:
I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...

I don't know, but I believe anyone who would claim that has no concept of game balance whatsoever, and really oughtn't be spouting off over what's "unfair" or "cheese" in other armies, lest they come off as some sort of raging hypocrite.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...

I don't know, but I believe anyone who would claim that has no concept of game balance whatsoever, and really oughtn't be spouting off over what's "unfair" or "cheese" in other armies, lest they come off as some sort of raging hypocrite.

The Eldar player can run a CAD and STILL have a glaring points advantage (for all intents and purposes). All he has to do is put a wraithknight on the table.

Even without formations, an eldar player can have a huge points advantage just by running multiple CADS, each of which has a wraithknight.

If I run a CAD, I lose my "free" transports. The Eldar player still has scatter bikes and wraithknights.

 Traditio wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...

I don't know, but I believe anyone who would claim that has no concept of game balance whatsoever, and really oughtn't be spouting off over what's "unfair" or "cheese" in other armies, lest they come off as some sort of raging hypocrite.

The Eldar player can run a CAD and STILL have a glaring points advantage (for all intents and purposes). All he has to do is put a wraithknight on the table.

Even without formations, an eldar player can have a huge points advantage just by running multiple CADS, each of which has a wraithknight.

If I run a CAD, I lose my "free" transports. The Eldar player still has scatter bikes and wraithknights.

And if you take a Gladius, you lose the benefits of a CAD, which is....obsec on...wait, that's not right either.

Hm. But there's no way this could be any kind of a double standard... after all, you've repeatedly claimed that everyone agrees with you, so it must be right...

the_scotsman wrote:And if you take a Gladius, you lose the benefits of a CAD, which is....obsec on...wait, that's not right either.

Why should I lose the benefits of a CAD if I take a gladius? To take a gladius, I have to field a minimum of 1 HQ, 3 troops and 1 heavy support.

To field a battle company, you need a minimum of 2 HQs, 6 troops, 2 fast attacks and 2 heavy supports. All of which have the word "infantry" in their statline.

The way I run mine, I end up with:

3 HQs, 6 troops, 2 heavy supports, 2 fast attacks and 3 elites.

I could easily make that CAD compliant just by running it as 2 CADS.

On the other hand, all the Eldar player has to do is put a wraithknight on the table.

Do you really not see the difference?

So a list without a WK can't be cheesy because the WK is undercosted?

As for can a WK be in a non-cheesy list, what about something like this (didn't calculate points):

WK
Spirit Seer
2×Rangers
2xGuadian Defenders + Brightlance + Warlocks
1xDire Avengers
1 Wraith guard (cannons) unit
1 Wraith blades unit
1 Banshee unit
1 Swooping Hawks unit
1 Falcon

Not sure on points, but that wouldn't be so scary, would it?

Bharring wrote:
So a list without a WK can't be cheesy because the WK is undercosted?

Doesn't follow from the premise.

Every wraithknight list is cheesy.

But not every cheesy list has a wraithknight.

We may express this as follows:

For all cases x, if x is a list and x has a wraithknight, then x is cheesy.

However:

It is not the case that, for all cases x, if x is a list and x is cheesy, then x has a wraithknight.

As for can a WK be in a non-cheesy list, what about something like this (didn't calculate points):

WK
Spirit Seer
2×Rangers
2xGuadian Defenders + Brightlance + Warlocks
1xDire Avengers
1 Wraith guard (cannons) unit
1 Wraith blades unit
1 Banshee unit
1 Swooping Hawks unit
1 Falcon

Simply in virtue of having wraithguard, a wraithknight and a spirit seer, it's a cheesy list.

Claiming it's not cheesy is like saying: "But I only have ONE unit of teleporting grav centurions in my list. That's not cheesy at all." The answer to this, of course, involves the feth word.

Back on the Wraithlord.
If you think it's a great way to cheaply put a pair of Scatter Lasers on the board, you should see how broken it is to put a pair of TLN AC Razorbacks on the table for about the same points. Or a tri-Las pred. Or a Havok squad with 4 ACs. How is it worth that many points just for the two Heavy weapons?

Bharring wrote:
So a list without a WK can't be cheesy because the WK is undercosted?

TBH, you're wasting your time asking that here. Especially if you're expecting an unbiased, fair answer from a known hypocrite.

As BA, I have no answer at all for that WK. Does that make it cheesy or BA weak?

Martel732 wrote:
As BA, I have no answer at all for that WK. Does that make it cheesy or BA weak?

You have an answer to it. Run lots of missile launchers and lascannons and devote ALL of your firepower to the wraithknight for roughly 2 turns. And then shake hands with your opponent when he tables you a couple of turns later. Because you devoted all of your firepower to taking down a wraithknight.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As BA, I have no answer at all for that WK. Does that make it cheesy or BA weak?

You have an answer to it. Run lots of missile launchers and lascannons and devote ALL of your firepower to the wraithknight for roughly 2 turns. And then shake hands with your opponent when he tables you a couple of turns later. Because you devoted all of your firepower to taking down a wraithknight.

MLs and lascannons are unusable crap, making them non-viable solutions. Especially with BA.

Bharring wrote:
Back on the Wraithlord.
If you think it's a great way to cheaply put a pair of Scatter Lasers on the board, you should see how broken it is to put a pair of TLN AC Razorbacks on the table for about the same points. Or a tri-Las pred. Or a Havok squad with 4 ACs. How is it worth that many points just for the two Heavy weapons?

1. The havoc squad can't move and fire at full BS.

2. That tri-las pred and razorback are vehicles with all of the accompanying restrictions, limitations and weaknesses.


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Martel732 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As BA, I have no answer at all for that WK. Does that make it cheesy or BA weak?

You have an answer to it. Run lots of missile launchers and lascannons and devote ALL of your firepower to the wraithknight for roughly 2 turns. And then shake hands with your opponent when he tables you a couple of turns later. Because you devoted all of your firepower to taking down a wraithknight.

MLs and lascannons are unusable crap, making them non-viable solutions. Especially with BA.

But martel, you only need...let's figure this out:

2/3 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 1/6 = 16/486 = 8/243

You only need 30 or so lascannon shots to take down that wraithknight (assuming the shield/invuln), Martel!

Surely, you can pack that many lascannons into your standard TAC list?

Well, considering the substantial increase in firepower and decrease in cost, I'd hope it wasn't strictly worse.

Dreads can go heavy double weapons. They cost a lot less, but give up some CC capability.