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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

This seems appropriate here...
The Uncomfortable Reason Why It Came To This In Dallas Yesterday
Spoiler:
Let me say this right off the bat: I don't at all condone any shooting of police officers or attacking them in any way. I hope that the people responsible are caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law - which, given that the attacks appear to have been premeditated and directed at law enforcement, means the death penalty. I assume, given that these idiots chose to perpetrate their crime in Texas, that this is exactly what will happen.

Fine. Good, even.

Now let's take a step back and look at the forces that would drive someone to do something like this yesterday. Here's the reality that we don't often talk about - that societies are held together less by laws and force and threats of force than we are by ethereal and fragile concepts like mutual respect and belief in the justness of the system itself.

In America, there are 376 police officers per 100,000 citizens - or one police officer per every 266 citizens. Stop and think about that. Could every police officer in America maintain order over 266 unruly people who had no respect for him him or the badge he wields? Absolutely not. The only thing that makes the situation even a little bit tenable is that the vast majority of people never think about confronting or challenging a police officer, and instead get up each day with the commitment to live their lives peacefully and lawfully, because they believe a) that they live in a society that is basically just and b) they believe that the few policemen who do exist will be there to protect them if something goes wrong and c) they have faith, by and large, that if someone commits a crime against them, they will be caught and punished.

Think, though, about what happens when these invisible bonds that are the most important part of maintaining law and order begin to dissolve - especially within a given subcommunity. Perception is, quite often, more important than reality. We are, in addition, creatures of our upbringing. The way our parents raise us to think about people and institutions shapes us to degrees that we often can't or won't acknowledge.

As the child of white parents who grew up in the rural panhandle of Texas, I was taught that police were there to help, any time I had a problem I should go to them. I should always follow their orders and show them the utmost respect. No one is more important and helpful to your community than the police.

Now imagine, for a minute, that your parents instead grew up as black people in the 50s or 60s in one of the many areas where police were often the agents of - let's call it what it was - white oppression. How might that have changed, for understandable reasons, the way not only those people but also their children and their children's children interact with the police? More importantly, how might it impact the belief that police will ever be held accountable for abuses of their power?

I think the evidence would show that the vast majority of police do their jobs with the greatest professionalism possible. I don't think that's a sufficient answer to the reality of lingering mistrust between police and minority communities, especially in certain areas of the country. And the proliferation of cell phone video recording has really confirmed (in their minds) something they have long anecdotally believed or been taught - that police often interact with minority communities in different ways than they do with the white community.

And here's the most important part: when they do so, they never or almost never face punishment.

Look, I don't know. I don't want to rush to judgment on either the Baton Rouge shooting or the Falcon Heights shooting, but based upon what we have seen, they look bad. Very bad. They look, at least at first glance, to confirm a lot of biases that people have. They look like a scenario that has played out all too often that the white community either doesn't believe ever happens (or at least believes is at most a freak occurrence) and minority communities believe is a systemic occurrence. And they look, most importantly, like many other scenarios in which officers have skated either scot free or with a slap on their wrist.

And here is the important point and the point I have been trying to make with this excessively wordy post. The most important safety valve to prevent violence like we saw in Dallas last night is the belief that when officers do go off the rails, the legal system will punish them accordingly. If minority communities (and everyone else, for that matter) believed that, resort to reprisal killings would be either non existent or far less frequent.

But they don't, and there's good reason for that. And that is because a huge, overwhelming segment of America does not really give a damn what cops do in the course of maintaining order because they assume (probably correctly) that abuse at the hands of police will never happen to them. As long as the cops keep people away from my door, they have my blessing handling "the thugs" in whatever way they see fit.

I see the attitude all the time even in the comments to the stories I write here at RedState. I'll post about some story or video where someone did something to break the law and thus found themselves in contact with the police. Fine. During the course of interaction with the police, however, the police drastically escalate the confrontation using what I think any reasonable person should consider to be wildly excessive force in bringing the situation to heel, and someone ends up either seriously injured or dead. Very often, the victim of this escalation is black.

Every time I post these stories, I get a flood of comments from people who look for even the smallest hook on which to hang an excuse for the cops. "Well, he was rude and confrontational to the cop." "Well, when the officer was trying to arrest him, he ran." "He was 'resisting arrest.'" (My personal favorite, which was used by several dozen people I talked to regarding Eric Garner, whose "resisting arrest" consisted entirely of turning his back to a cop and putting his hands in the air.)

Look, this is not how a free society works. Being rude/disrespectful to a cop, running from a cop, demanding in a hostile tone to know why a cop has pulled you over might well be contraindicated to the peaceful continuation of your day, but they are not an excuse for someone getting shot. I'm for the death penalty, but the kind that is carried out after, you know, a trial and some appeals - not the kind that is carried out on the spot by a cop who's had his authority challenged in some non life-threatening way.

These excuses, though, are indicative of an abdication of critical thinking about the legal and proper application of police force that really and truly is endemic in America. Prosecutors are often guilty of it when deciding whether to indict officers for excessive force. More often, they know that jury members will be extremely guilty of it if they decide to bring charges at all, which makes the whole exercise not worth their time.

Here's all you need to know: since 2000, NYPD officers have shot and killed about 180 people. Only 3 of those officers was even indicted for anything and only 1 was convicted, for a non-jail time offense. And these statistics are fairly typical of the nation at large.

Reasonable people can disagree about the prevalence of police brutality in America, and the extent to which race plays a factor in it. I don't think reasonable people can disagree that excessive police force is punished way less often than it actually happens. And that's the kind of problem that leads to people taking up guns and committing acts of violence - tragically (and with evil intent) against cops who as far as we know have done nothing wrong.

But people's willingness to act rationally and within the confines of the law and the political system is generally speaking directly proportional to their belief that the law and political system will ever punish wrongdoing. And right now, that belief is largely broken, especially in many minority communities.

And it's the blind, uncritical belief that the police never (or only in freak circumstances) do anything wrong that is a major contributing factor to that.

It's at least as much of a factor, if not more so, than the blind, uncritical belief that the police always do things wrong - which many conservatives today are blaming in entirety for what happened in Dallas.

The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle, but acknowledging that requires looking in the mirror in a way that makes us all a little uncomfortable.

Co-signed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Has it been confirmed yet that it was just one shooter, or were there multiple shooters?

Via twittah:
NBC DFW (@NBCDFW)
1 hour ago - View on Twitter
JUST IN: Authorities believe Micah Xavier Johnson was lone gunman in Dallas shooting attack on.nbcdfw.com/QVt9AKU pic.twitter.com/mSVGIJmGs…


Also... latest on Dallas Morning News site:
http://interactives.dallasnews.com/2016/dallas-police-ambush-timeline/?_ga=1.94264158.277803135.1468012092

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 21:09:55


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 d-usa wrote:
Would he have been due for a Good Conduct Medal after 5 years, or is the time frame different for Reserves?


No. You only get it for active duty. Time in the Reserves does not count.

He might have gotten the Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal, it's every 3 years, but he'd also have to be recommended by his unit commander. It's not automatic.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/08 21:28:19



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Would he have been due for a Good Conduct Medal after 5 years, or is the time frame different for Reserves?


No. You only get it for active duty. Time in the Reserves does not count.

You could get the Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal, it's every 3 years, but his time in active duty wouldn't count toward it. So.... it would depend on the specific dates if he'd have qualified.


Thanks for the info.
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

From a headline I saw on Yahoo!

Attorney general: Hate crime charge unlikely if Dallas shooter acted alone


Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Breotan wrote:
From a headline I saw on Yahoo!

Attorney general: Hate crime charge unlikely if Dallas shooter acted alone


Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?



Well, no, it's right, but also : any charge is unlikely due to him being dead.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 Breotan wrote:
From a headline I saw on Yahoo!

Attorney general: Hate crime charge unlikely if Dallas shooter acted alone


Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?



All charges are unlikely if he acted alone. He is dead.

Ninja'ed

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 21:33:57


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

Uh oh.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36752603

Seems he DID have bomb material at his house. Which makes me ask..... Where's the bomb?


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
From a headline I saw on Yahoo!

Attorney general: Hate crime charge unlikely if Dallas shooter acted alone

Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?

Well, no, it's right, but also : any charge is unlikely due to him being dead.

Yes, we all know he's dead. The issue is the idea that his acting alone excludes a hate crime.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Breotan wrote:
From a headline I saw on Yahoo!

Attorney general: Hate crime charge unlikely if Dallas shooter acted alone


Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?



what there has to be more then one to hate? seriously?


oh my this is gonna stir things up:

http://www.nytimes.com/live/news-dallas-shooting-protest/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-calls-dallas-protesters-hypocrites-for-running-from-snipers-bullets/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 21:55:55


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
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Asterios wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
From a headline I saw on Yahoo!

Attorney general: Hate crime charge unlikely if Dallas shooter acted alone


Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?



what there has to be more then one to hate? seriously?


It's kind of a dumb headline; I'd be interested in seeing the rest of the article so I could tell who, exactly, was being stupid.



What an a-hole. Dangerously close to 100% a dick.

Glad they got the guy who did it. Nothing but deepest sympathies for the rest of the deceased and their families.

   
Made in us
Colonel





This Is Where the Fish Lives

Breotan wrote:Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?
Asterios wrote:what there has to be more then one to hate? seriously?/
This would be a good reminder not to draw conclusions based on a headline alone, assuming neither of you actually read the article.

Attorney General Lynch explains that there will most likely no hate crime charges because it seems, at this point in the investigation, the suspect acted alone. Since he also seems to have come down with a bad case of exploding robot, there is no one to bring hate crime charges against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 22:09:45


 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I blame Dave Chapelle.

Joking obviously, but I honestly think his humor could do more to bridge the gap between Black and White than any activist group or political movement. I'm aware of why he quit, but maybe he was just getting too close to the truth and it scared him.

Another case in my mind for reforming the drug laws in America. The animosity between police and Black America need not be there, because it'll just lead to more senseless murders like this.

I'll let the chief domestic advisor to Nixon explain it best:

"We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”"
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Breotan wrote:Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?
Asterios wrote:what there has to be more then one to hate? seriously?/
This would be a good reminder not to draw conclusions based on a headline alone, assuming neither of you actually read the article.

Attorney General Lynch explains that there will most likely no hate crime charges because it seems, at this point in the investigation, the suspect acted alone. Since he also seems to have come down with a bad case of exploding robot, there is no one to bring hate crime charges against.


yes but if they said no hate crime charges against the BLM could understand that since it was a radical who did this, but why bother saying this especially with the "only" suspect being dead?

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Ok, we've discovered politicians can be idiots... now, about that potentially loose bomb or two?


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Asterios wrote:
 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Breotan wrote:Since when has acting alone ever been a factor in hate crimes?
Asterios wrote:what there has to be more then one to hate? seriously?/
This would be a good reminder not to draw conclusions based on a headline alone, assuming neither of you actually read the article.

Attorney General Lynch explains that there will most likely no hate crime charges because it seems, at this point in the investigation, the suspect acted alone. Since he also seems to have come down with a bad case of exploding robot, there is no one to bring hate crime charges against.


yes but if they said no hate crime charges against the BLM could understand that since it was a radical who did this, but why bother saying this especially with the "only" suspect being dead?


Why on Earth would the non-organized Black Lives Matter movement even be considered for hate crime charges because of this man's murders?

They wrote their headline the way they did because clickbait draws attention.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Ok, we've discovered politicians can be idiots... now, about that potentially loose bomb or two?


That is definitely worrying. Hopefully still in pieces in his apartment.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/08 22:17:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BaronIveagh wrote:
Ok, we've discovered politicians can be idiots... now, about that potentially loose bomb or two?


problem is no idea if there is a bomb out there or even where?

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Colonel





This Is Where the Fish Lives

Asterios wrote:yes but if they said no hate crime charges against the BLM could understand that since it was a radical who did this, but why bother saying this especially with the "only" suspect being dead?
I'm pretty sure that isn't an actual sentence so I'm not 100% exactly what you're trying to say, but Spinner pretty well explains it:
Spinner wrote:They wrote their headline the way they did because clickbait draws attention.

 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I had just typed up the rhetorical question "who doesn't understand that this man's crimes were motivated by racial hatred" but before I even typed the question mark I realized that there probably are people who think his crimes are down to alleged racism on the part of the police, rather than his own avowed racist motives. So I checked my Facebook feed, and sure enough ...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 22:32:25


   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

Here is an article written by a former police office who is African-american. It is an interesting read about how race affects policing.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 redleger wrote:
Since you seem to continue to want to go in this direction
I was actually content to let the subject rest, as you suggested. I was dragged back in by another poster. You have been very gracious and diplomatic in your responses, and I appreciate that. I apologise for continuing the discussion.

I will ask the direct question, please give a direct answer. How do you recommend people protect themselves from those with no regard for the law, societal customs, regulations, and are ok with doing violence on soft and easy targets?
I think if someone is in immediate mortal peril, then I would recommend they defend themselves by whatever means necessary. However, that is actually not what I was talking about. It is not the gun that I object to, but the rhetoric of fear that goes along with it, and the normalisation and acceptance of violence.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 BaronIveagh wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Would he have been due for a Good Conduct Medal after 5 years, or is the time frame different for Reserves?


No. You only get it for active duty. Time in the Reserves does not count.

He might have gotten the Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal, it's every 3 years, but he'd also have to be recommended by his unit commander. It's not automatic.


Wrong. I was awarded a good Conduct medal during my time in the Marine Reserves.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Relapse wrote:

Wrong. I was awarded a good Conduct medal during my time in the Marine Reserves.


Marines are not Army. Each branch has a different version with slightly differing criteria.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Conduct_Medal_(United_States)

(Note, for some reason is not linking correctly, but article does exist)

The Marines do have a Reserve good conduct medal, though. The Selected Marine Corps Reserve Medal.

All of the branches seem to have the same split, one for active duty and one for reserves. The time doesn't seem to stack, but the reserves one gets 'paused' rather than reset by active duty.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/07/08 23:09:22



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
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Somewhere in south-central England.

 CptJake wrote:
This is allegedly the perp's 'like' or group memberships on facebook. If accurate it may give an indication as to what he considered his motivating factors.

https://archive.is/AWhWZ

(was shown the link, no idea how accurate it really is)






There's no point posting it then.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Relapse wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Would he have been due for a Good Conduct Medal after 5 years, or is the time frame different for Reserves?


No. You only get it for active duty. Time in the Reserves does not count.

He might have gotten the Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal, it's every 3 years, but he'd also have to be recommended by his unit commander. It's not automatic.


Wrong. I was awarded a good Conduct medal during my time in the Marine Reserves.


Maybe it's harder to find well behaved marines, so they get rewarded more?
   
Made in us
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TN/AL/MS state line.

Possible Copycat in East Tennessee-
http://www.wbbjtv.com/2016/07/08/east-tenn-highway-gunman-motivated-by-police-shootings-tbi-says/

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Seneca Nation of Indians

Just wait, there will be more.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Has it been confirmed yet that it was just one shooter, or were there multiple shooters?


Also no ETS award. And still an E3. I would suspect he got in trouble and was flagged at some point. Maybe had a company grade at some point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
This is allegedly the perp's 'like' or group memberships on facebook. If accurate it may give an indication as to what he considered his motivating factors.

https://archive.is/AWhWZ

(was shown the link, no idea how accurate it really is)






There's no point posting it then.


Better than speculation he is a white supremacist long after we know he isn't...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 23:19:07


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Tornado Alley

 d-usa wrote:
Relapse wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Would he have been due for a Good Conduct Medal after 5 years, or is the time frame different for Reserves?


No. You only get it for active duty. Time in the Reserves does not count.

He might have gotten the Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal, it's every 3 years, but he'd also have to be recommended by his unit commander. It's not automatic.


Wrong. I was awarded a good Conduct medal during my time in the Marine Reserves.


Maybe it's harder to find well behaved marines, so they get rewarded more?


Winning! No I kid, I kid. I love you Jarheads.

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 Smacks wrote:
 redleger wrote:
Since you seem to continue to want to go in this direction
I was actually content to let the subject rest, as you suggested. I was dragged back in by another poster. You have been very gracious and diplomatic in your responses, and I appreciate that. I apologise for continuing the discussion.

I will ask the direct question, please give a direct answer. How do you recommend people protect themselves from those with no regard for the law, societal customs, regulations, and are ok with doing violence on soft and easy targets?
I think if someone is in immediate mortal peril, then I would recommend they defend themselves by whatever means necessary. However, that is actually not what I was talking about. It is not the gun that I object to, but the rhetoric of fear that goes along with it, and the normalisation and acceptance of violence.


or maybe it is better to have it and not need it then to not have it and need it?


also in:

Micah Johnson was honored with an Afghanistan Campaign Medal with a campaign star, an Army Achievement Medal, a National Defense Service Medal, a Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, an Army Service Ribbon, an Armed Forces Reserve Medal and a NATO Medal.

http://fox40.com/2016/07/08/dallas-police-shooter-a-reclusive-decorated-army-reservist/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/09 00:43:59


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Runnin up on ya.

 redleger wrote:
Was watching CNN and that is how they are reporting it. Also saw some good interviews, and sounds like this may stir some dialogue between police and communities.


The sad thing is that they were already having those conversations in Dallas and making progress.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
 
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