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Made in us
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Asterios wrote:
evidently this incident has caused gun and Body Camera stocks to climb, can see Gun stocks going up but Body Camera?

http://fox40.com/2016/07/08/gun-and-body-camera-stocks-surge-after-dallas-shooting/


Well if more police departments are required to use body cams as a result of all this then body cam sales will increase so stocks in them will rise.

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Backwoods bunker USA

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Asterios wrote:
 Smacks wrote:
 redleger wrote:
Since you seem to continue to want to go in this direction
I was actually content to let the subject rest, as you suggested. I was dragged back in by another poster. You have been very gracious and diplomatic in your responses, and I appreciate that. I apologise for continuing the discussion.

I will ask the direct question, please give a direct answer. How do you recommend people protect themselves from those with no regard for the law, societal customs, regulations, and are ok with doing violence on soft and easy targets?
I think if someone is in immediate mortal peril, then I would recommend they defend themselves by whatever means necessary. However, that is actually not what I was talking about. It is not the gun that I object to, but the rhetoric of fear that goes along with it, and the normalisation and acceptance of violence.


or maybe it is better to have it and not need it then to not have it and need it?/


Still missing the point. If you'd rather have your gun and have a 10%* chance of being shot to death by a burglar than not having a gun and having a 5%* chance of being shot to death by a burglar because society got its collective thumbs out of its collective behind then more power to you.

*Figures used for ilustrative purposes only.


I would rather have my gun and be 10% more likely to be killed by an assailant with a gun, than not have my gun and be 5% likely to be killed by an assailant with a gun. That's my personal preference, but I can certainly understand how others would prefer differently.

*Figures also just illustrative.

That preference is partly based on self reliance as well as the fact that I can't count on others for help while living in the middle of nowhere, partly based on experience being in situations where I don't have means to defend myself (and realizing how much that sucks) and partly on actual experience having had guns drawn on me (which is a risk I'm willing to take in return). But again, I realize that isn't the paradigm for everyone.
   
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Somewhere in south-central England.

Is Gun Control the topic of this thread?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

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What's this I'm hearing from Sky about a threat to a Dallas police station? Swat teams setting up a perimeter? Police snipers? Sky says the threat came from a group known to the police?
   
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 Spinner wrote:

Frankly, I can't see many objections to that.


I've actually seen a M113 painted Cadillac Black. And no one objects to ice cream.


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 Spinner wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:


Next time just paint the AFV in cheery, kid friendly colors, and serve ice cream out of the back.



Frankly, I can't see many objections to that.


Except for the colour blind, lactose intolerant vegans!

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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What's this I'm hearing from Sky about a threat to a Dallas police station? Swat teams setting up a perimeter? Police snipers? Sky says the threat came from a group known to the police?


http://fox40.com/2016/07/09/reports-dallas-police-shutdown-street-near-headquarters-following-anonymous-threat/

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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What's this I'm hearing from Sky about a threat to a Dallas police station? Swat teams setting up a perimeter? Police snipers? Sky says the threat came from a group known to the police?

More anonymous threats that they're (obviously) taking serious...

http://www.wfaa.com/news/reports-dpd-under-lockdown-swat-deployed-following-serious-threat/268431154

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 whembly wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What's this I'm hearing from Sky about a threat to a Dallas police station? Swat teams setting up a perimeter? Police snipers? Sky says the threat came from a group known to the police?

More anonymous threats that they're (obviously) taking serious...

http://www.wfaa.com/news/reports-dpd-under-lockdown-swat-deployed-following-serious-threat/268431154


if you just lost 5 brother officers with as many injured, you might take it a bit serious too.

Problem is Dallas was almost a beacon of police who did work with their community and such and this happens to them?

Also Al Sharpton must be very happy about the officers killed:


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/10 00:09:53


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If this continue this is going to go into a new bad league of stupidty

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 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
So I read today that yesterday there was a police officer shot by a black man here in Tennessee, after responding to him shooting 3 other white people on a highway, killing one of them.

That makes 15 police officers targeted and shot in a 24 hour period, by my count. 12 in Dallas, 1 in St. Louis, 1 in Atlanta, and 1 in TN. Anyone hear of anymore stories?

Aside from those instances you mentioned thankfully not. The Dallas incident does bring back memories of the two LEOs ambushed in New York a few years ago


The two shot in the head in a patrol car? That was only 18 months ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/21/nyregion/two-police-officers-shot-in-their-patrol-car-in-brooklyn.html?_r=0

Definitely an uptick in targeted anti-police violence. What relevance that has with the increase in BLM presence is obviously up for debate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What's this I'm hearing from Sky about a threat to a Dallas police station? Swat teams setting up a perimeter? Police snipers? Sky says the threat came from a group known to the police?

More anonymous threats that they're (obviously) taking serious...

http://www.wfaa.com/news/reports-dpd-under-lockdown-swat-deployed-following-serious-threat/268431154


if you just lost 5 brother officers with as many injured, you might take it a bit serious too.

Problem is Dallas was almost a beacon of police who did work with their community and such and this happens to them?

Also Al Sharpton must be very happy about the officers killed:




Do you think there's any irony in the fact he's now a Fox News commentator?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/10 01:05:53


 
   
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DutchWinsAll wrote:

Do you think there's any irony in the fact he's now a Fox News commentator?


the whole last decade has been ironic.

just read this story and it make me sad especially that a BLM group thought a protest in Dallas which was actually working with the community was even needed:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2016/07/09/cuba-gooding-jr-cried-over-slain-dallas-police-officer/86902940/?hootPostID=d61fef104b0cbfb4a148fc6633dbeb73

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/10 04:00:09


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
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well this is not going to go over well:

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2016/07/08/police-group-calls-for-city-councilwomans-resignation-after-dallas-facebook-post/

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Leerstetten, Germany

Well, it's just one isolated event in the grand scheme of things. But Oklahoma City had our big #BLM protest today.

They planned to march this afternoon from a historic black church on the east side, and end up in the heart of our entertainment district. In light of thousands and thousands of "angry protesters" the local baseball team rescheduled their game from the afternoon to noon and local businesses in Bricktown decided to shut down early.

In the end we ended up with 1,000-2,000 protesters participating in a peaceful march with a heavy police presence. #BLM protesters, white and black, shook hands with and hugged police officers that were assigned to the march and protest. As expected, the event was peaceful.
   
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 d-usa wrote:
Well, it's just one isolated event in the grand scheme of things. But Oklahoma City had our big #BLM protest today.

They planned to march this afternoon from a historic black church on the east side, and end up in the heart of our entertainment district. In light of thousands and thousands of "angry protesters" the local baseball team rescheduled their game from the afternoon to noon and local businesses in Bricktown decided to shut down early.

In the end we ended up with 1,000-2,000 protesters participating in a peaceful march with a heavy police presence. #BLM protesters, white and black, shook hands with and hugged police officers that were assigned to the march and protest. As expected, the event was peaceful.


glad to hear it.

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Everett, WA

Before this weekend, there were black militants calling for violence against police. Now that Dallas police have had a chance to catch their breath so to speak, they're investigating if there is any connection. Are these attacks on police in Dallas and elsewhere being coordinated by black militants or simply inspired by them? If either can be proven then the militants could possibly face prison for inciting.


 
   
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On a surly Warboar, leading the Waaagh!

Saw this and wasn't surprised. I've been trying to stay on top of this thread, but if I missed this already having been posted, my apologies.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas%e2%80%99-open-carry-laws-blurred-lines-between-suspects-and-marchers/ar-BBuaiWK?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=ASUDHP
   
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USA

 BigWaaagh wrote:
Saw this and wasn't surprised. I've been trying to stay on top of this thread, but if I missed this already having been posted, my apologies.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas%e2%80%99-open-carry-laws-blurred-lines-between-suspects-and-marchers/ar-BBuaiWK?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=ASUDHP


I'd actually post this in our thread about Philando Castile, as it is relevant to that incident as well (maybe more so). I think there's substance to the thought that expanded CCP presents a significant issue for law enforcement and citizens interacting with each other.

   
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Everett, WA

 LordofHats wrote:
 BigWaaagh wrote:
Saw this and wasn't surprised. I've been trying to stay on top of this thread, but if I missed this already having been posted, my apologies.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas%e2%80%99-open-carry-laws-blurred-lines-between-suspects-and-marchers/ar-BBuaiWK?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=ASUDHP

I'd actually post this in our thread about Philando Castile, as it is relevant to that incident as well (maybe more so). I think there's substance to the thought that expanded CCP presents a significant issue for law enforcement and citizens interacting with each other.

Then why are shooting of that type so rare? If it were really a problem, gun control advocates would be using it (police officer safety) as the spear point of their movement. The truth is that people carrying firearms get pulled over for traffic stops in every state in the Union. As long as the CCP holder behaves responsibly the stop is almost always resolved without incident. I maintain that what happened with Philando Castile was the cop's fault, not Philando Castile's, and had the cop done his job properly nobody would be dead and none of us would even know Philando Castile's name. He'd be just one more person who got a ticket/warning for a busted tail light and sent on his way.

As to BigWaaagh's link, it's just one more anti-gun column with the main quotes coming from a Democrat, pro-gun control mayor. His statements on open carry do not show he has interpreted the facts correctly and should not be taken as some sort of evidence for, well, anything. Was there confusion immediately during the shooting? Yes. Was most of it cleared up quickly? Also yes. Were the gun owners brought in for questioning treated professionally and with dignity? Again, yes. That Mayor Mike Rawlings uses this tragedy to pitch President Obama's anti-gun drive should not be a surprise to anyone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/11 06:53:51


 
   
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USA

 Breotan wrote:

Then why are shooting of that type so rare?


I don't think it means shootings will happen. I think it means that only a stupid cop would ever not be wary of someone with a weapon on their person, whether they are permitted to carry it or not. The only sensible responses are to acknowledge the presence of the weapon and keep it in mind. Its a situation that introduces further uncertainty and unease into situations that are already generally uneasy and uncertain. EDIT: In some ways, it is probably safer for officers. There's no wondering if someone is carrying if they tell you they are, but I don't think any smart cop should ever respond to the words "I'm carrying" dismissively, under any circumstance.

That isn't an argument that CCP is a "problem." It's an argument that we shouldn't ignore the elephant in the room if we're allowing elephants in the room. That's an attitude that pervades nearly all sides of every talk about guns in this country, and it's produced a gun debate that runs on ideology (left and right) absent reality.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/11 07:16:47


   
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.. errm .... but ..

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Perp's gun:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/11 11:24:56


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Orlando

Castile according to the local sheriff does not have a record of him having a CWP(two day old info, might have changed). The only word we have gotten he had one was the woman on the video after the fact. Also if he attended the class, he should already have had his wallet on his lap.

-Gun was a Saiga AK-74 which actually Obama has had banned from import for the last 3 years. As with usual, media at first called it an AR-15. Then it was reported to be an SKS. Finally its an AK-74.

Out of curiosity does anyone find it disturbing that they used a drone to blow the guy up? Not saying he didn't deserve it or anything. But the fact police used high explosives remotely is kind of spooky.

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Check the thread about that shooting.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/695937.page#8766915

then

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/695937.page#8767393

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/11 12:07:53


Prestor Jon wrote:
Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
 
   
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Col. Dash wrote:
Castile according to the local sheriff does not have a record of him having a CWP(two day old info, might have changed). The only word we have gotten he had one was the woman on the video after the fact. Also if he attended the class, he should already have had his wallet on his lap.

-Gun was a Saiga AK-74 which actually Obama has had banned from import for the last 3 years. As with usual, media at first called it an AR-15. Then it was reported to be an SKS. Finally its an AK-74.

Out of curiosity does anyone find it disturbing that they used a drone to blow the guy up? Not saying he didn't deserve it or anything. But the fact police used high explosives remotely is kind of spooky.


I understand why a big PD would have a bomb bot, and if you have a bomb bot it should be able to take out suspected bombs, so I'm okay with the capability.

And just like when you provide a capability to a soldier, when you provide it to a cop they are going to figure out ways to use that capability much differently than intended by the engineers/systems guys who provide the capability.

In this particular case, you got a guy holed up, known to be armed and willing, even eager to kill cops, claims he has IEDs/bombs, refuses to give up, at that point there really one end state; dead crap bag. So, how do you achieve the end state without losing more good guys? The cops found a solution.

Honestly I'm not sure how you use high explosives except remotely. It isn't like a cop is gonna be there when they detonate. Even if hand placed, the cop will go back to a safe distance and remotely detonate the explosives. I guess you could toss a grenade/charge on a short time fuse and hope for the best, but placement is spotty compared to using a 'bot or hand emplacing the charge.

I know if I was the cop facing the decision to run into this guy's line of fire to cap him, or using the bomb bot, my choice would not be running into his line of fire.

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 CptJake wrote:
Col. Dash wrote:
Castile according to the local sheriff does not have a record of him having a CWP(two day old info, might have changed). The only word we have gotten he had one was the woman on the video after the fact. Also if he attended the class, he should already have had his wallet on his lap.

-Gun was a Saiga AK-74 which actually Obama has had banned from import for the last 3 years. As with usual, media at first called it an AR-15. Then it was reported to be an SKS. Finally its an AK-74.

Out of curiosity does anyone find it disturbing that they used a drone to blow the guy up? Not saying he didn't deserve it or anything. But the fact police used high explosives remotely is kind of spooky.


I understand why a big PD would have a bomb bot, and if you have a bomb bot it should be able to take out suspected bombs, so I'm okay with the capability.

And just like when you provide a capability to a soldier, when you provide it to a cop they are going to figure out ways to use that capability much differently than intended by the engineers/systems guys who provide the capability.

In this particular case, you got a guy holed up, known to be armed and willing, even eager to kill cops, claims he has IEDs/bombs, refuses to give up, at that point there really one end state; dead crap bag. So, how do you achieve the end state without losing more good guys? The cops found a solution.

Honestly I'm not sure how you use high explosives except remotely. It isn't like a cop is gonna be there when they detonate. Even if hand placed, the cop will go back to a safe distance and remotely detonate the explosives. I guess you could toss a grenade/charge on a short time fuse and hope for the best, but placement is spotty compared to using a 'bot or hand emplacing the charge.

I know if I was the cop facing the decision to run into this guy's line of fire to cap him, or using the bomb bot, my choice would not be running into his line of fire.


This. Many of the people asking why the bot was necessary have probably never had incoming fire for any sustained period of time. It man controlled, not some non-existant AI running round blowing up humans.

Also for him to have scored that many hits using that weapon, which is not known for its accuracy with the wanna be ACOG meant he was just praying and spraying if you will. I heard there was a lot of gun fire, so maybe he wasn't a well trained sniper after all. Seems he scored hits through volume of fire.

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-

I've been reading about and watching coverage of BLM protest marches in Louisiana, as a reaction to the Dallas events, and it seems people's constitutional rights are going out the window.

Not only 1st and 4th amendment violations, but we have one of those very rare, once every 200 years, instances of somebody's 3rd amendment rights being possibly violated


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The Great State of Texas

Considering the protesters in Louisiana were blocking roads that would be...no.

Blocking roads is a time honored civil disobedience move. However you have to pay the piper if you do it.

The ones in Minnesota skipped the civil disobedience part and went right to hooliganism -injuring some 21 officers.

Hooliganism, such a delicious word of my people. One so rarely gets a chance to use it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/11 13:00:01


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Orlando

The inaccuracy of the AK series is fairly over-stated. A man sized target at 200 yards isn't super hard to hit with one with an aimed shot. A well zeroed and practiced AK-74 which is the upgrade to the AK-47 would not have had an issue in the shooting. The round is fairly accurate. I think a lot of our interpretation of the AK series being inaccurate is we always see either Hollywood misrepresenting it like they do everything gun and ballistics related or news feeds of undisciplined terrorists just standing there either shooting from the hip or unloading full mags on auto.

This shooter was using semi-auto taking selective shots for his initial spree. Catching them by surprise he easily could have taken down as many as he did. If he was firing full auto or rapidly he wouldn't have been as successful as he was. In the video he was still only firing one or two rounds before moving so he at least had decent trigger discipline.

His real mistake was he fired more than a round or two and didn't leave. He should have fired off a round and moved out before cops figured out his firing position. So its obvious at least in regard to sniper training he was untrained.

Has anyone heard about the other three people who were arrested in relation to this and were being uncooperative to the police? They kind of fell off the earth in regard to being in the news.

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Aye, there's nothing really wrong with the accuracy of an AK*, proper factory made AK's out of military arsenals will meet the US military standards of acceptance for the M4/M16. It's harder to get the same top end accuracy out of one that you can get out of an AR, but they're more than accurate enough to successfully engage targets with iron sights at 300m


*(so long as it's a properly built AK, crappy barrels and poor rebuilds of imported parts kits will result in poor accuracy, which is unfortunately common with AK's on the US market)



That said, given that we've had 3 or 4 different claims as to the weapon the shooter used, is the '74-style Saiga definitively the weapon used now?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/11 13:36:58


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