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 Don Savik wrote:

I don't think anyone would complain about a 72" in. range plasma cannon with skyfire/interceptor. You can't convince me that its a mediocre gun.

A large blast plasma cannon with intercept and the possibility to ignore cover and be fired at a high bs. Pfff when is that ever going to be useful.

 oldzoggy wrote:
balancing is simple -> Make them vehicles / walkers.
Give them 3HP AV 13/12/12 and you are done.

This is a good idea but it feels a bit over armoured for such a light unit.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:

I don't think anyone would complain about a 72" in. range plasma cannon with skyfire/interceptor. You can't convince me that its a mediocre gun.

A large blast plasma cannon with intercept and the possibility to ignore cover and be fired at a high bs. Pfff when is that ever going to be useful.

This is balancing the riptide more or less in a vacuum, not with markerlight support, which exists in useful amount only on fragile platforms. BS3 is hardly high accuracy.

If you left the tau player with markerlights in turn 2, then you have no one to blame but yourself, or fantastically bad dice rolls.

They're not fragile to the have not codices.

Martel732 wrote:
They're not fragile to the have not codices.

What? No literally, what? I cannot understand...

And no riptides aren't fragile, but pathfinders and marker drones are. They are where markerlights in quantity come from. t3 5+ bs3 LD7(8 with 'ui) or t4 4+ bs2 ld7 respectively.

But if we get to pick and choose how we are balancing the "OP" units, we can theory craft an OP unit for BA in specific circumstances with certain units doing certain things. I know BA are bad, so we won't, but balance the riptide, not the other units.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're not fragile to the have not codices.

What? No literally, what? I cannot understand...

And no riptides aren't fragile, but pathfinders and marker drones are. They are where markerlights in quantity come from. t3 5+ bs3 LD7(8 with 'ui) or t4 4+ bs2 ld7 respectively.

But if we get to pick and choose how we are balancing the "OP" units, we can theory craft an OP unit for BA in specific circumstances with certain units doing certain things. I know BA are bad, so we won't, but balance the riptide, not the other units.

The Riptide being functionally immortal is a serious problem that has nothing to do with the other units. Dialing up AP 2 large blast that travels 72" is a serious problem that has nothing to do with the other units. The other units just make it worse.

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're not fragile to the have not codices.

What? No literally, what? I cannot understand...

And no riptides aren't fragile, but pathfinders and marker drones are. They are where markerlights in quantity come from. t3 5+ bs3 LD7(8 with 'ui) or t4 4+ bs2 ld7 respectively.

But if we get to pick and choose how we are balancing the "OP" units, we can theory craft an OP unit for BA in specific circumstances with certain units doing certain things. I know BA are bad, so we won't, but balance the riptide, not the other units.

The Riptide being functionally immortal is a serious problem that has nothing to do with the other units. Dialing up AP 2 large blast that travels 72" is a serious problem that has nothing to do with the other units. The other units just make it worse.

Right, but that isn't what I am addressing with these comments. High BS at 72" isn't inherent to the riptide. In fact entirely average bs3 is inherent to it, so that 2/3rd the time it would scatter 3-6" off target and miss nearly/entirely the target. For the Functionally Immortal part, remove stimulant injectors as an option maybe reduce a wound, and now its a 4w creature, with 1/3rd less survivablity. Or leave it with those, and give it the slightly-upgraded/changed Ion raker, do make it an up close at risk unit.

Should just remove the interceptor upgrade for Riptides.

BS 3 large blast is still pretty damn good. You have a 60% chance to get the template within 3" of where you put it. The ignore cover buff is way more damaging than the BS buff.

Make the failed nova charge change from a wound to just outright removing the model from the table; like the reactor going critical. I think doing that and not changing around the power of it would balance it out a bit, make people careful when it comes to charging up stuff.

Martel732 wrote:
BS 3 large blast is still pretty damn good. You have a 60% chance to get the template within 3" of where you put it. The ignore cover buff is way more damaging than the BS buff.

yes, you have a 60% chance of hitting 1 model with the very edge of the template, from a 185 point minimum (225 for the version you're talking about with FNP and interceptor) super plasma cannon, that cannot fire its other weapons at that range, and needs LOS.

 n0t_u wrote:
Make the failed nova charge change from a wound to just outright removing the model from the table; like the reactor going critical. I think doing that and not changing around the power of it would balance it out a bit, make people careful when it comes to charging up stuff.

ok, then power of the machine spirit, you have to roll a d6, and on a 1 or 2 the vehicle explodes. makes sense? no.. it takes a wound to represent the reactor getting too warm, not exploding, like control rods in a nuclear reactor activated a little late doesn't cause a nuclear bomb, it causes too much heat. You already need to be careful because the nova reactor failing makes you lose the profile and take a wound, you don't get the shot but take a wound.

 n0t_u wrote:
Make the failed nova charge change from a wound to just outright removing the model from the table; like the reactor going critical. I think doing that and not changing around the power of it would balance it out a bit, make people careful when it comes to charging up stuff.

You know, I proposed a version like that a while back - a T5 version of the Riptide that takes an S10 AP1 wound on a nova failure. It was called an overnerf even by those folks who think the Riptide would be overpowered at 350 points.

(Incidentally, when a reactor "goes critical", it just turns on. You're looking for "prompt critical", and even that doesn't usually mean "kaboom".)

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BS 3 large blast is still pretty damn good. You have a 60% chance to get the template within 3" of where you put it. The ignore cover buff is way more damaging than the BS buff.

yes, you have a 60% chance of hitting 1 model with the very edge of the template, from a 185 point minimum (225 for the version you're talking about with FNP and interceptor) super plasma cannon, that cannot fire its other weapons at that range, and needs LOS.

 n0t_u wrote:
Make the failed nova charge change from a wound to just outright removing the model from the table; like the reactor going critical. I think doing that and not changing around the power of it would balance it out a bit, make people careful when it comes to charging up stuff.

ok, then power of the machine spirit, you have to roll a d6, and on a 1 or 2 the vehicle explodes. makes sense? no.. it takes a wound to represent the reactor getting too warm, not exploding, like control rods in a nuclear reactor activated a little late doesn't cause a nuclear bomb, it causes too much heat. You already need to be careful because the nova reactor failing makes you lose the profile and take a wound, you don't get the shot but take a wound.

I'd be fine with the odd machine spirit rebelling too really. And give them an even stronger shot if it fails and kills them or a blast around it at least. Honestly stuff like the wraithknight needs addressing more cause as it is as well the riptide needs some support to be worthy of even half the fear it seems to get online.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BS 3 large blast is still pretty damn good. You have a 60% chance to get the template within 3" of where you put it. The ignore cover buff is way more damaging than the BS buff.

yes, you have a 60% chance of hitting 1 model with the very edge of the template, from a 185 point minimum (225 for the version you're talking about with FNP and interceptor) super plasma cannon, that cannot fire its other weapons at that range, and needs LOS.

 n0t_u wrote:
Make the failed nova charge change from a wound to just outright removing the model from the table; like the reactor going critical. I think doing that and not changing around the power of it would balance it out a bit, make people careful when it comes to charging up stuff.

ok, then power of the machine spirit, you have to roll a d6, and on a 1 or 2 the vehicle explodes. makes sense? no.. it takes a wound to represent the reactor getting too warm, not exploding, like control rods in a nuclear reactor activated a little late doesn't cause a nuclear bomb, it causes too much heat. You already need to be careful because the nova reactor failing makes you lose the profile and take a wound, you don't get the shot but take a wound.

A 3" deviance will let you hit a lot more than one model. 225 is far too cheap for what it brings to the table. You know what I can get for 225? Nothing REMOTELY that good.

A 5" template is 2.5" from center to end, so a 3" deviation is farther than the edge of the template.. so no, a 3" deviation will not reliably hit more than a few sparse models.

And for 1 shot per turn, 225 points is a bit to good. but there have been more reasonable suggestions, to keep it from never take status, and there have been "give it a 1/3rd chance of auto removing it from the table no saves, and more points"

 pumaman1 wrote:
A 5" template is 2.5" from center to end, so a 3" deviation is farther than the edge of the template.. so no, a 3" deviation will not reliably hit more than a few sparse models.

And for 1 shot per turn, 225 points is a bit to good. but there have been more reasonable suggestions, to keep it from never take status, and there have been "give it a 1/3rd chance of auto removing it from the table no saves, and more points"

I never suggested that. There are a lot of relatively minor changes that helps a lot. AP 2 -> AP 3 for the overcharged mode and range down to 36" would help a lot.

personally would just say to keep the ion in line with the hammerhead one with ap3 on overcharge. ap2 for nova risk

maybe make the nova a d3 wound. or heck just make using the nova charge 1 wound per use.

and then increase the price of the IA and the options for interceptor.

im sure in these 5 pages it was already suggested though.

Fully agreed. As I've said a few times, it's the combination of 72" range and insane durability together that's broken, not as much either one on its own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
personally would just say to keep the ion in line with the hammerhead one with ap3 on overcharge. ap2 for nova risk

maybe make the nova a d3 wound. or heck just make using the nova charge 1 wound per use.

and then increase the price of the IA and the options for interceptor.

im sure in these 5 pages it was already suggested though.

You did look at the initial post, no?

jade_angel wrote:
Fully agreed. As I've said a few times, it's the combination of 72" range and insane durability together that's broken, not as much either one on its own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
personally would just say to keep the ion in line with the hammerhead one with ap3 on overcharge. ap2 for nova risk

maybe make the nova a d3 wound. or heck just make using the nova charge 1 wound per use.

and then increase the price of the IA and the options for interceptor.

im sure in these 5 pages it was already suggested though.

You did look at the initial post, no?

First unread thread put me in the middle of p3

i assume i saw it like a while ago but forgot

That's fairly close to what I did - big range decrease for the IA (now a variant of the CIR), main profile is AP4, overcharge is AP3, nova-charge is AP2, slightly buffed the HBC but shortened its range.

I did leave the EWO, but it's a lot less dangerous with 24-30" range.

jade_angel wrote:
That's fairly close to what I did - big range decrease for the IA (now a variant of the CIR), main profile is AP4, overcharge is AP3, nova-charge is AP2, slightly buffed the HBC but shortened its range.

I did leave the EWO, but it's a lot less dangerous with 24-30" range.

Fair enough though i dont recall the hammerhead variant of the Ion being ap4.

i think ap3 is fine in all honesty. 3 shots at str 7 is not that big a deal.
i love the HBC and the way it looks so will always appreciate it being buffed a bit
range is still a bit meh for me. maybe if the nova charged version had reduced range for an increase in performance. maybe even getting it to ST10 for the shorter range as a way of dealing with bike people. especially if the overcharge costs wounds to use instead of a risk of losing a wound.
(it will still mince most troop anyway and anything to hurt heavy bike lists is a + in my books. i really hate that every fethin list is like 2 bike characters and bikes only. but thats a personal opinion)

i feel like EWO really needs to be very expensive or at least maybe even a signature system. its really good for what it is and its cost. and i feel interceptor shouldnt be nearly as proliferate as it is

imho

I was going for the Ghostkeel version, not the Hammerhead version. The Hammerhead ion cannon still has 60" range, and a T6/W5/2+ beastie 60" away hucking AP3 pie-plates is only very slightly more manageable than the same beastie 72" away hucking AP2 pie-plates.

So, it's 6 shots at AP4, but only at 24". And the fact that it's got to be in range of your grav-cannons, plasma guns, meltas and every freakin' bolter in the army is why it needs such ludicrously high resistance to light weapons. But equally, it now goes from "effectively immortal, killing MEQ and TEQ squads with impunity" to "hard to kill, but now in range of almost everything including fast melee units. And much more scared of melee."

Y'know, making the nova-charge profile S10 is a thought, as an anti-deathstar/anti-bike measure. I pretty much never see Vindicators anymore, but does a Vindicator gun actually scare bike deathstars? (We can debate the relative survivability all day, but the fact that Riptides aren't subject to Crew Shaken/Stunned results makes all the difference in the world, IMHO.)

It just doesn't feel very consistent which is my only gripe.

iirc (as i dont have the ghost kell yet) the ion is about the same size and scope of the hammer head version.

the ghostkeel from what i can tell is a much shorter snub nosed version of it. which iirc matches up with the strength of the pathfinder ones

(edit the vindicator it self doesn't really scare deathstars as fore the most part they can just jink it off. the 3 one maybe as it ignores cover but its suuuuuper easy to stop that effect)

The Riptide ion accelerator is longer than the Hammerhead version. The Ghostkeel's cyclic ion raker is somewhat smaller than the Riptide or Hammerhead ion weapons, but much larger than the Pathfinder or Crisis Suit versions. The Ghostkeel itself is about the size of a Hive Tyrant - it's not small, though notably smaller than the Riptide.

My "fluff headcanon" on this one is that the Riptide's ion weapon is bigger because all the cooling systems have to be mounted inside the gun housing, and it has to dissipate more heat than the Ghostkeel does, due to the nova-charge. Put more power through the gun, it will get hotter, and the overcharge profile that doesn't need the nova reactor already has the Gets Hot rule. So, the suit-mounted version is big and bulky because of lots of cooling bits (note the Ghostkeel's gun is pretty big to start with), the tank-mounted version is big because it's designed for long range. And I figure, since the bigger suit can send more power through the gun, there's cause for its overcharge profile to be S8 AP3.

As for the non-overcharged profile, I didn't go to AP3 there, not because S7 AP3 Heavy 6 is OP, but because it's so obviously better than S6 AP5 Heavy 10 that it becomes a total no-brainer upgrade, and cheap no-brainer upgrades are generally a bad thing. However, at only AP4, the balance of range and volume versus strength and multiple fire mode options makes the ion weapon worth only a little more.

And also, because long range is the part about the Riptide that is generating most of the rage, so, fluffy or unfluffy, that's the part that really needs fixing.

Imho my own HC about the ion is that it was simpler to just use an existing weapon while doing the experimental suit aka the same weapon off the HH. as its suit mounted it doesn't gain the benefit of the advance targeting system (so bs3 instead of 4) but otherwise the gun is the same.

also personally never had any real complaints about the range, only the fact that its AP2 and eats terminators for days. and can whip them and any deepstriking unit out without care.

mind ya it might just be my local sample size.

The ghost keel ion raker is heavy 6 s7ap4 24" or overcharged to heavy 1 s8 ap4 large blast gets hot. 24", which i think is a down grade from 6 shots to 1 large blast.

The Hammerhead's ion is 60" s7ap3 heavy 3 and overcharge to heacy 1 s8 large blast (again, a down grade in most circumstances to me, trade 3 accurate shots for 1 blast)

and the riptide is 72" s7ap2 heavy 3, overcharge for s8ap2 large blast gets hot, or nova for s9 ap2 large blast ordinance gets hot, so it still has a chance of not firing.

I would reasonably change the hammerhead and riptide non-nova profile in a heart beat. even a reduction 30/36" but ap4 i think is not reasonable for the riptide, as an elite killer. if its an GEQ killer, then its alot worse than equivalent firewarrior squad in damage per point

So based on updated changes, I'd never take one with the ion gun. It would be a slightly more mobile broadside for 3x the cost, as there would rarely be a circumstance where I'd use any nova profile but to overcharge the [nerfed] HBC. Against any loyalist SM I'd leave it at home, as I'm not handing my opponent a 200pt+ free turn 2 gravkill. I have enough mid strength ap5/4 firepower in my xv8's, drones and broadsides.(I play without non-suit infantry, CAD, no experience with dawn blade contingent)

Paying for SMS over fusion/plasma is still silly. Broadsides have to play 10 pts to upgrade from SMS to tl-plasma. Plus the thing can only fire 1 gun now (not a mc or xv8), so meh on ever taking that.

Nova Hazard still irks me. Librarians can join the massive centurion units with their point-click doomguns, buffing them considerably with psychic , while also adding better Ld, CC capability. I somewhat understand you not wanting buffmanders joining them again, but with the heavy nerfs to their performance it again seems malicious. If you're going to cut the legs off of the workhorse at least let the pony do its trick again.

And once again, since they are no longer MC, give them shas'vre ws2 and a2. if two s5 ws2 i2 cc attacks scare you, never fight space wolves.

How to balance riptides:

1. Turn them into walkers.
2. Significantly decrease their firepower.
3. Don't give them an invulnerable save.
4. Increase their points cost.

 Traditio wrote:
How to balance riptides:

1. Turn them into walkers.
2. Significantly decrease their firepower.
3. Don't give them an invulnerable save.
4. Increase their points cost.

So basically making sure that nobody will use them?

I think he means 'pick one of the above' rather than all 4...