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 CptJake wrote:
Actually, DaIsh gains recruits from having successful attacks, not from any western response, overdone or not. Study their propaganda and recruiting material.

The truth is we can't win either way with regards to hearts and minds. Either we do nothing which as you say encourages them, or we strike back, which also encourages them. Only the latter is at least an effort to stop them.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:
So... you're saying there's some redeeming qualities that these people have, that deserves some legitimacy?

No, but attempting to annihilate a population to eradicate an ideology via violence in 2016 is sort of a crazyperson idea, even just considering the pragmatic, practical considerations and not the whole moral concept of "we need to murder a ton of innocent people to bring justice to these people who are murdering a ton of innocent people".

Again... what is it going to take to this to stop?

A comprehensive process of radical reformation, modernisation and secularisation of Islamic Theology and Islamic countries across the world, just like the process Christianity's was forced to undergo (and is still undergoing in some places).

Oh, and naturally we need to stop adding fuel to the fire. No more illegal, poorly planned and futile wars like Iraq that leave behind millions dead, a bitter hated of the West and power vacuums that can be eploited by fundamentalists jihadists.

Christianity was not forced to undergo anything. The liberalisation of christianity was a movement that came from within christianity itself after the development of a stable middle class during the later part of the Middle Ages, and it took a century of extreme religious violence and constant warfare before those more liberal values finally overcame the old fundamentalism.
So the answer to the question of what it is going to take for this to stop is the development of a stable middle class in the Middle East. This will have a moderating effect on the region's extremist religious and political ideologies. Ultimately the solution needs to come from within Islam itself, the West can do nothing here. The violence and destabilisation we see now may very well be the islamic equivelant of the European wars of religion in the 16th-17th centuries.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Actually, DaIsh gains recruits from having successful attacks, not from any western response, overdone or not. Study their propaganda and recruiting material.

The truth is we can't win either way with regards to hearts and minds. Either we do nothing which as you say encourages them, or we strike back, which also encourages them. Only the latter is at least an effort to stop them.

An effort that accomplishes just as much as doing nothing that is. And probably it only makes it worse. In that case it is better to just do nothing and save ourselves a whole lot of wasted effort and money, as well as a lot of innocent lives in the Middle East.

 SickSix wrote:
Genocide was never in the equation. Killing all ISIS memebers was. You guys are so predictable.

Trying to kill every single member, supporter and sympathiser of IS would and could not be anything else than a genocide. It is not possible to cleanly single out The Bad Guys. They will have family members that mourn them, civilians that die alongside them and many other groups that decry the violence wielded by the US against massive populations. Even if it were to be defeated by military action, and there is plenty of that being done by multiple parties, it is the organisation that will have lost and many of the people in it will simply fade into the background or move to other groups with similar ideologies.

 feeder wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Actually, DaIsh gains recruits from having successful attacks, not from any western response, overdone or not. Study their propaganda and recruiting material.

People become radicalised because someone 7,000 miles away shot up a night club, not because a drone blew up their mother?

That seems counter intuitive.

Only to those who haven't had to deal with Islamic terrorists before.

MOST recruiting videos and propaganda films are successful Islamic attacks. In Iraq they were almost exclusively successful IED attacks on US Forces, in Afghanistan the same but with a bit more SAF engagements.

ISIS uses victories against the Iraqi's, Kurds and such as recruitment tools. Believe it or not, showing people a bunch of dead ISIS fighters doesn't rally the troops so to speak. As far as showing videos of Airstrikes killing civilians? That has pretty much been the norm since the 60s. It really doesn't radicalize them anymore then usual.

 feeder wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Actually, DaIsh gains recruits from having successful attacks, not from any western response, overdone or not. Study their propaganda and recruiting material.

People become radicalised because someone 7,000 miles away shot up a night club, not because a drone blew up their mother?

That seems counter intuitive.

Can you connect any recent lone wolfs directly to drone attacks?

Thats a big leap.

We fight them through methodical espionage, crime fighting, and intelligence/black ops stuff. Anything more is ineffective and plays into their goals.

In the meantime, we pretty much ignore them and keeping doing what we have been doing.

Choosing not to react is just as much an action as doing something.

Another ISIS twisted scheme.

This will sure to spur the far rights movements in Europe and islamophobia. The grand scheme is that the ISIS wants an absolute control over the entire Islamic world and every muslims or christian 'outcasts' originated from Arabia will be expulsed from Europe and elsewhere, with that the group will enthrall them. That's the first step of many.

Do not let the victims be a tool to the fascists to exert dominance here and there. Let this be the lessons of french 'laxxed' security system. before the incident the french lawmen were given a warning from German Intelligence unit and advised that the France should strenghten lawmen and/or counterterrorism measures. to the points of prevention.

 SickSix wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Actually, DaIsh gains recruits from having successful attacks, not from any western response, overdone or not. Study their propaganda and recruiting material.

People become radicalised because someone 7,000 miles away shot up a night club, not because a drone blew up their mother?

That seems counter intuitive.

Can you connect any recent lone wolfs directly to drone attacks?

Thats a big leap.

If I wanted to read any these sick bastard's manifestos, I'm sure they would claim "Western Terrorism" or some such as one of the reasons.

It seems a big leap to pretend that our collateral damage style attacks are accepted by those affected as just a part of waging war.

 Lone Cat wrote:
Another ISIS twisted scheme.

This will sure to spur the far rights movements in Europe and islamophobia. The grand scheme is that the ISIS wants an absolute control over the entire Islamic world and every muslims or christian 'outcasts' originated from Arabia will be expulsed from Europe and elsewhere, with that the group will enthrall them. That's the first step of many.

Do not let the victims be a tool to the fascists to exert dominance here and there. Let this be the lessons of french 'laxxed' security system. before the incident the french lawmen were given a warning from German Intelligence unit and advised that the France should strenghten lawmen and/or counterterrorism measures. to the points of prevention.

I agree with you partly, but the second part about the warning is utter bull. The french were already on high alert, they have suffered several significant terrorist attacks in the past year. They were already on a heightened state of alert, any higher and they would have had to cancel the event.

If you really want to stop Islamic terrorists it is relatively simple to plan but extremely hard to carry out.

1: FIRMLY Vet every immigrant from EVERY country, not just muslim dominated countries.
2: FORCE religious centers and buildings to make public ALL services and prayer meetings (things such as confession are obviously different and need not be made public)
3: Incorporate people into a country, do not let immigrants flock together for solidarity. There are places in the US and in france where if you don't speak a specific language you can't even communicate with the locals. If you speak only English you can not communicate with a majority in Miami (specific South Miami). If you go to parts of Texas you need to speak the mexican version of spanish otherwise again, you can't communicate. In France they have entire neighborhoods where Arabic is the dominant language. Cultural heritage is perfectly fine and can be encouraged, however, living that cultural exclusively in a different country will quickly breed problems. (Dutch terrorists hid in Muslim sections)
4: Israel has a very good policy in regards to terrorists and their families. If Muhammed commits a terrorist attack then his entire family is deported. Is this cruel? Yes, very much so. But maybe a fear of the repercussions for their family will keep some of these would be terrorists from going through with their attacks.

5: Above all else, Vigilance. Report anything you think is strange behavior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feeder wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Actually, DaIsh gains recruits from having successful attacks, not from any western response, overdone or not. Study their propaganda and recruiting material.

People become radicalised because someone 7,000 miles away shot up a night club, not because a drone blew up their mother?

That seems counter intuitive.

Can you connect any recent lone wolfs directly to drone attacks?

Thats a big leap.

If I wanted to read any these sick bastard's manifestos, I'm sure they would claim "Western Terrorism" or some such as one of the reasons.

It seems a big leap to pretend that our collateral damage style attacks are accepted by those affected as just a part of waging war.

Well, since their literally hasn't been peace in the middle east since the beginning of this century......

Your solutions contravene almost all of the first ten amendments of the US Constitution.

 Frazzled wrote:
Your solutions contravene almost all of the first ten amendments of the US Constitution.

Well since the US Seems perfectly ok with destroying the 2nd I didn't think they would mind me infringing on the 1st.

And actually, only #2 and #4 violate anything in the bill of rights. #2 violates the 1st Amendment ....to a degree, it actually only forces religions to make public their supposedly PUBLIC services and Prayer Meetings.

and #4 is a very clear and blatant violation of Due process and therefore the 5th and 14th? amendments.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
Another ISIS twisted scheme.

This will sure to spur the far rights movements in Europe and islamophobia. The grand scheme is that the ISIS wants an absolute control over the entire Islamic world and every muslims or christian 'outcasts' originated from Arabia will be expulsed from Europe and elsewhere, with that the group will enthrall them. That's the first step of many.

Do not let the victims be a tool to the fascists to exert dominance here and there. Let this be the lessons of french 'laxxed' security system. before the incident the french lawmen were given a warning from German Intelligence unit and advised that the France should strenghten lawmen and/or counterterrorism measures. to the points of prevention.

I agree with you partly, but the second part about the warning is utter bull. The french were already on high alert, they have suffered several significant terrorist attacks in the past year. They were already on a heightened state of alert, any higher and they would have had to cancel the event.

If you really want to stop Islamic terrorists it is relatively simple to plan but extremely hard to carry out.

1: FIRMLY Vet every immigrant from EVERY country, not just muslim dominated countries.
2: FORCE religious centers and buildings to make public ALL services and prayer meetings (things such as confession are obviously different and need not be made public)
3: Incorporate people into a country, do not let immigrants flock together for solidarity. There are places in the US and in france where if you don't speak a specific language you can't even communicate with the locals. If you speak only English you can not communicate with a majority in Miami (specific South Miami). If you go to parts of Texas you need to speak the mexican version of spanish otherwise again, you can't communicate. In France they have entire neighborhoods where Arabic is the dominant language. Cultural heritage is perfectly fine and can be encouraged, however, living that cultural exclusively in a different country will quickly breed problems. (Dutch terrorists hid in Muslim sections)
4: Israel has a very good policy in regards to terrorists and their families. If Muhammed commits a terrorist attack then his entire family is deported. Is this cruel? Yes, very much so. But maybe a fear of the repercussions for their family will keep some of these would be terrorists from going through with their attacks.

5: Above all else, Vigilance. Report anything you think is strange behavior.

You make McCarthy proud.
Be vigilant folks, your neigbour may just be a pinko commie sympathiser radical muslim terrorist. Report any suspicious behaviour to the House Un-American Activities Committee.
And none of this is going to stop islamic terrorism unfortenately. Point 3 does have some merit, but it would not be achievable in a free, democratic society. Nonetheless, governments could do more to prevent these neighbourhouds from turning into ghettos. Like what happened in the US with all the Little Italies and Chinatowns. Those neighbourhoods developed and integrated pretty well, right? Even if they were dominated by immigrants from a specific ethnic group.

Not a bad plan SemperMortis. Obviously it needs to be tweaked.

It is a problem when immigrants are allowed to not assimilate and firm their own quasi states within the state. Look at Michigan for an example. I believe it's Dearborn that muslims have taken over.

Border security. It's a joke in the US right now. The entire 'War on Terror' looks like a joke when you realize we never sealed our borders after 9-11.

Language. Immigrants should learn the language of the land, not the other way around. Our cops shouldn't have to be bilingual just to do their job.

If our borders were tight and immigrants assimilated, we wouldn't have to worry about terrorism.

 SickSix wrote:
Not a bad plan SemperMortis. Obviously it needs to be tweaked.

It is a problem when immigrants are allowed to not assimilate and firm their own quasi states within the state. Look at Michigan for an example. I believe it's Dearborn that muslims have taken over.

Border security. It's a joke in the US right now. The entire 'War on Terror' looks like a joke when you realize we never sealed our borders after 9-11.

Language. Immigrants should learn the language of the land, not the other way around. Our cops shouldn't have to be bilingual just to do their job.

If our borders were tight and immigrants assimilated, we wouldn't have to worry about terrorism.

With modern media and the internet, there is still lots of room for domestic terrorists that have been radicalized from online material and propaganda, though. No secure border in the world will help with that.

Completely closed borders are also basically impossible for economical reasons, I hope we can all agree on that.

 SickSix wrote:
Not a bad plan SemperMortis. Obviously it needs to be tweaked.

It is a problem when immigrants are allowed to not assimilate and firm their own quasi states within the state. Look at Michigan for an example. I believe it's Dearborn that muslims have taken over.

Border security. It's a joke in the US right now. The entire 'War on Terror' looks like a joke when you realize we never sealed our borders after 9-11.

Language. Immigrants should learn the language of the land, not the other way around. Our cops shouldn't have to be bilingual just to do their job.

If our borders were tight and immigrants assimilated, we wouldn't have to worry about terrorism.

I thought students of the School of Hyperbole were to be derided? Or is that only for Liberal Scum?

The only way to reduce terror attacks is stop destroying their infrastructure and let them have a stable, functioning society.

It's no accident that terrorists used to come from Palestine. Now they are from Iraq, Syria, Libya. It's as if bombs create terrorists or some such nonsense.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Stories appearing now that the French government suppressed details about the Bataclan massacre that are revolting, victims were tortured in the most horrendous sexual ways with eyes and genitals being stabbed or cut off in men and women. Seems this is coming out now because some are fed up of hiding details after the attacks yesterday.

I can't find a decent source on this? Only Fox News and the Daily Mail seem to be running with it. Prosecutors are saying that no knives were found at the scene.

 Easy E wrote:
We fight them through methodical espionage, crime fighting, and intelligence/black ops stuff. Anything more is ineffective and plays into their goals.

In the meantime, we pretty much ignore them and keeping doing what we have been doing.

Choosing not to react is just as much an action as doing something.

I have to call bull on that. When I had trouble in school from these two gakkers, I was told to just ignore them. But this only encouraged them. You want to know how I eventually stopped them? I busted the mouthier of the two fethers face open.

Now I'm not saying that we should go into the Middle East. That's not going to work. What I am saying though is that we shouldn't lie back and take it either.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Stories appearing now that the French government suppressed details about the Bataclan massacre that are revolting, victims were tortured in the most horrendous sexual ways with eyes and genitals being stabbed or cut off in men and women. Seems this is coming out now because some are fed up of hiding details after the attacks yesterday.

What ?!

Got any source backing it up ?

Witzkatz wrote:

Completely closed borders are also basically impossible for economical reasons, I hope we can all agree on that.

We vociferously disagree.

Israel doesn't typically deport the families - they will sometimes bulldoze the house. Of course, then Hamas declares the terrorist a martyr and builds them an even bigger house so, you know, it doesn't exactly discourage that kind of behavior.

Physical separation is the only solution.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Stories appearing now that the French government suppressed details about the Bataclan massacre that are revolting, victims were tortured in the most horrendous sexual ways with eyes and genitals being stabbed or cut off in men and women. Seems this is coming out now because some are fed up of hiding details after the attacks yesterday.

That honestly does not surprise me, after the German authorities tried to censor the truth of the Cologne new year attacks.

(Speaking of which, I recently learned that one of the victims of said attacks actually fell pregnant and had an abortion out of concern that it could have been the attacker's. I knew the attacks were bad, but full blown penetrative sexual intercourse rape??).

 LethalShade wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Stories appearing now that the French government suppressed details about the Bataclan massacre that are revolting, victims were tortured in the most horrendous sexual ways with eyes and genitals being stabbed or cut off in men and women. Seems this is coming out now because some are fed up of hiding details after the attacks yesterday.

What ?!

Got any source backing it up ?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/15/french-lawmakers-told-bataclan-terrorists-tortured-disemboweled-victims.html

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Stories appearing now that the French government suppressed details about the Bataclan massacre that are revolting, victims were tortured in the most horrendous sexual ways with eyes and genitals being stabbed or cut off in men and women. Seems this is coming out now because some are fed up of hiding details after the attacks yesterday.

What ?!

Got any source backing it up ?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/15/french-lawmakers-told-bataclan-terrorists-tortured-disemboweled-victims.html

Got any real sources? heat street, daily mail and infowars are not sources.

 jhe90 wrote:
Not again.... France does not deserve this. No one does.

Dakka does not let me type words to sum up my opinion of the attacker

We are at war. Our cities are a frontline.

But no one wants to fight the enemy, name the enemy, do anything about that except lie back and accept terrorism will just be a thing in the west.

 Frazzled wrote:

Witzkatz wrote:

Completely closed borders are also basically impossible for economical reasons, I hope we can all agree on that.

We vociferously disagree.

I would argue that, when actually taken in the big picture, the number of people that are killed or injured in these terrorist attacks are actually very small as a meangingful mortality source, despite being horrific and tragic.

How much resources are worth investing in expensive defense systems and organizations that would be involved in sealing large national borders, while making commerce, travel, and business much more difficult and expensive, to save about as many lives as are lost to residential pools? How many more lives would be saved through that same investment in infrastructure, research, healthcare, etc?

 SickSix wrote:
Not a bad plan SemperMortis. Obviously it needs to be tweaked.

It is a problem when immigrants are allowed to not assimilate and firm their own quasi states within the state. Look at Michigan for an example. I believe it's Dearborn that muslims have taken over.

Border security. It's a joke in the US right now. The entire 'War on Terror' looks like a joke when you realize we never sealed our borders after 9-11.

Language. Immigrants should learn the language of the land, not the other way around. Our cops shouldn't have to be bilingual just to do their job.

If our borders were tight and immigrants assimilated, we wouldn't have to worry about terrorism.

In Canada you have to be bilingual for a government job, unless you're an immigrant then you don't even need to speak English.
I don't know how many times I've dealt with the government and the person couldn't speak French or English.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Not again.... France does not deserve this. No one does.

Dakka does not let me type words to sum up my opinion of the attacker

We are at war. Our cities are a frontline.

But no one wants to fight the enemy, name the enemy, do anything about that except lie back and accept terrorism will just be a thing in the west.

what and get used to watching people die. families rboken.
its about time we did something.. there has to be weakness to these fanatics, there has to be somthing that they rely on

 jhe90 wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Not again.... France does not deserve this. No one does.

Dakka does not let me type words to sum up my opinion of the attacker

We are at war. Our cities are a frontline.

But no one wants to fight the enemy, name the enemy, do anything about that except lie back and accept terrorism will just be a thing in the west.

what and get used to watching people die. families rboken.
its about time we did something.. there has to be weakness to these fanatics, there has to be somthing that they rely on

They're weak to bullets. Lets go shove some up their asses.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Not again.... France does not deserve this. No one does.

Dakka does not let me type words to sum up my opinion of the attacker

We are at war. Our cities are a frontline.

But no one wants to fight the enemy, name the enemy, do anything about that except lie back and accept terrorism will just be a thing in the west.

what and get used to watching people die. families rboken.
its about time we did something.. there has to be weakness to these fanatics, there has to be somthing that they rely on

They rely on our continued presence in their backyard. We need to GTFO and let the ME go through it's own Reformation.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Witzkatz wrote:

Completely closed borders are also basically impossible for economical reasons, I hope we can all agree on that.

We vociferously disagree.

I would argue that, when actually taken in the big picture, the number of people that are killed or injured in these terrorist attacks are actually very small as a meangingful mortality source, despite being horrific and tragic.

How much resources are worth investing in expensive defense systems and organizations that would be involved in sealing large national borders, while making commerce, travel, and business much more difficult and expensive, to save about as many lives as are lost to residential pools? How many more lives would be saved through that same investment in infrastructure, research, healthcare, etc?

I would argue that if you close the fething border you'd close it against the cartels as well, which represent a significant threat to the US. Also helps to keep out the billions in illegal drugs, human smuggling, illegal immigration etc. etc. etc.