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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Aquila Killteam only Re-rolls 1s, and I believe in the video with PK and RC was described as being the "Jack of all Trades" Killteam vs the more specialized other Killteams.

Oh jeez. Reading comprehension fail on my part. Now that makes a lot more sense! I have seriously been pondering why the other Kill Teams exist when the Aquila did the same thing only better. I see the difference now. Thanks!

Cephalobeard wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Aquila Killteam only Re-rolls 1s, and I believe in the video with PK and RC was described as being the "Jack of all Trades" Killteam vs the more specialized other Killteams.

But they're not "more specialized", there in effect worse. Because Aquillas do everything, basically.

Edit** I recognize some Kill-Teams reroll all to-wounds rolls, but I don't think it justifies how much "better" Aquillas are in general. I will likely only ever use an Aquilla.

Hell, my 1850 List uses -5- Aquillas.

Rerolling all To Wound rolls coupled with Mission Tactics allowing rerolls of To Hit rolls of 1 and Librarians boosting up other stuff can make the specific Kill-Teams decent, situationally, --especially if someone takes into account the bit about mixed units counting as both for Mission Tactics purposes and you know your opponent likes to play the bubble wrap game.

To use an example: a unit of Eldar Jetbikes with an attached Farseer gets targeted by Furor Kill-Team. It's allowing for rerolling failed To Wound rolls and Armour Penetration rolls against units with the battlefield role of "Troops"(Furor Kill-Team's special rule) and Purgatus Tactics are in play, allowing for rerolling To Hit rolls of 1s against any unit with the "HQ" battlefield role.

I realised another stupid thing about the veteran loadouts. A lot of the promo pictures show them with bolter and powersword, and in fact this is the only way to assemble the bolter chaps without converting. Now, this is not only bad loadout, it is completely insane one. Again, for some inexplicable reason, the lighting claw costs the same as the power sword. Now, without a second weapon the claw is exactly the same as the power sword, except it re-rolls wounds. No sensible person would ever equip their squad as GW suggests them to be equipped! Ant then there's the black shield with two power swords...

I really hate this, the kit comes with five swords, but there is absolutely no reason to ever equip any of the veterans with them, which is a shame as they look really cool.

 Crimson wrote:
I realised another stupid thing about the veteran loadouts. A lot of the promo pictures show them with bolter and powersword, and in fact this is the only way to assemble the bolter chaps without converting. Now, this is not only bad loadout, it is completely insane one. Again, for some inexplicable reason, the lighting claw costs the same as the power sword. Now, without a second weapon the claw is exactly the same as the power sword, except it re-rolls wounds. No sensible person would ever equip their squad as GW suggests them to be equipped! Ant then there's the black shield with two power swords...

I really hate this, the kit comes with five swords, but there is absolutely no reason to ever equip any of the veterans with them, which is a shame as they look really cool.

Never expect people to always choose the most efficient option. You'd be surprised what people will take, whether thats GW's fault or their own.

Yeah, and given the fact you can adjust the Mission Tactics during the game, allows you to be quite flexible. I am probably going to run two Aquila for all-around duty, one of the Elites hunting, and one of the Fast Attack hunting Kill Teams. The Strategium Command Team looks like fun, so I will probably run Artemis with one of the Aquilas in that.

Now I just need to figure out how I want to equip each of. The Kill Teams. The shotgun+Bolter revelation made that a lot easier.

I wish there was a way to make your Kill Teams better capable of killing MCs and GCs though.

While perusing the Glossary of the Deathwatch Codex sample, I noticed an entry for grav-cannons. I was wondering why since according to what I've heard so far, there are no units which can take them

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

better capable of killing MCs and GCs though.

So the Dominatus or Malleus Killteams for the Elites Choice and Heavy Support Monsterous Creatures out there?

Pft. Aquila Kill-Teams.

Watch Company is where it's at!
-Veteran Squad #1
4x Frag Cannons
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword

-Veteran Squad #2
4x Infernus Heavy Bolters with Hellfire Shells(because TEMPLATES GALORE!)
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword

-Veteran Squad #3
4x Deathwatch Shotguns
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword

-Aquila Kill-Team
Veteran Squad with 4x Stalker Boltguns
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword
Librarian rolling from Librarius
2x Terminators with CMLs with a DT Corvus

Watch-Captain Artemis replacing the Watch Captain for the formation

Watch Master as the Command and a Corvus Dropship Wing as Auxiliary

Cephalobeard wrote:

Never expect people to always choose the most efficient option. You'd be surprised what people will take, whether thats GW's fault or their own.

Sure. But it still bad rules writing to have two options, one of which is in every way inferior to cost the same. I mean, now it is is literally a question of whether you want free re-rolls to wound or not.

To be fair, if you are sending one of the Non-Aquila teams after their intended target anyway, the re-rolls to wound from the Lightning Claw are redundant.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yeah, and given the fact you can adjust the Mission Tactics during the game, allows you to be quite flexible. I am probably going to run two Aquila for all-around duty, one of the Elites hunting, and one of the Fast Attack hunting Kill Teams. The Strategium Command Team looks like fun, so I will probably run Artemis with one of the Aquilas in that.

Now I just need to figure out how I want to equip each of. The Kill Teams. The shotgun+Bolter revelation made that a lot easier.

I wish there was a way to make your Kill Teams better capable of killing MCs and GCs though.

A 10 man veteran team comes out at 370pts when all armed with grav guns, shame there isn't an easy way to make them relentless.

Hellfire is sorta effective vs MC'a coupled with some special weapons, but Wraith Knights laugh at you like most weapons.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
To be fair, if you are sending one of the Non-Aquila teams after their intended target anyway, the re-rolls to wound from the Lightning Claw are redundant.

Ok, so sometimes re-rolls, or always re-rolls. Which of these is better?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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Why Xenophase, Kanluwen?

Clearly always, but remember the intent of the army is to send your specialists after their intended targets, much like using Aspect Warriors for the Eldar.

Also while in no way optimal, it is cheaper to give a model a Hand Flamer (Or Chain Sword) and a Power Sword for the extra attack than it is to give a model a Pair of Lightning Claws.

 Crimson wrote:

Cephalobeard wrote:

Never expect people to always choose the most efficient option. You'd be surprised what people will take, whether thats GW's fault or their own.

Sure. But it still bad rules writing to have two options, one of which is in every way inferior to cost the same. I mean, now it is is literally a question of whether you want free re-rolls to wound or not.

In the silly mind of GW designers a PW (sword maul axe or spear) is the same as a LC cause the PW gets additional attacks from any other HTH weapon while the LC get the additional attack from another Specialist weapon only...
This is when you want to get a bonus attack but if you use with a ranged weapon or a SS LC is better than a PW...
This is why GW never playtest their rules...

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Also while in no way optimal, it is cheaper to give a model a Hand Flamer (Or Chain Sword) and a Power Sword for the extra attack than it is to give a model a Pair of Lightning Claws.

Yes, and it is even cheaper to equip the model with an actual flamer and the claw, and with two base attacks the re-rolls are still better even if you lose the extra attack and you get stronger flamer template (and costs less!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master sheol wrote:

In the silly mind of GW designers a PW (sword maul axe or spear) is the same as a LC cause the PW gets additional attacks from any other HTH weapon while the LC get the additional attack from another Specialist weapon only...
This is when you want to get a bonus attack but if you use with a ranged weapon or a SS LC is better than a PW...
This is why GW never playtest their rules...

This is not even something that needs to be playtested, it is just common sense and some simple math.

 Crimson wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Also while in no way optimal, it is cheaper to give a model a Hand Flamer (Or Chain Sword) and a Power Sword for the extra attack than it is to give a model a Pair of Lightning Claws.

Yes, and it is even cheaper to equip the model with an actual flamer and the claw, and with two base attacks the re-rolls are still better even if you lose the extra attack and you get stronger flamer template (and costs less!)

Well its cheaper than giving them the hand flamer yes, but not cheaper than giving them the Chain sword.

In all reality though its just a way to sell more kits, so you can get more of the weapons you actually want, or for you to get bits to make the models the individuals you want them to be.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

Pft. Aquila Kill-Teams.

Watch Company is where it's at!
-Veteran Squad #1
4x Frag Cannons
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword

-Veteran Squad #2
4x Infernus Heavy Bolters with Hellfire Shells(because TEMPLATES GALORE!)
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword

-Veteran Squad #3
4x Deathwatch Shotguns
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword

-Aquila Kill-Team
Veteran Squad with 4x Stalker Boltguns
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword
Librarian rolling from Librarius
2x Terminators with CMLs with a DT Corvus

Watch-Captain Artemis replacing the Watch Captain for the formation

Watch Master as the Command and a Corvus Dropship Wing as Auxiliary

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Well its cheaper than giving them the hand flamer yes, but not cheaper than giving them the Chain sword.

*Sigh*

Yes, but chainsword it is worse so it makes sense for it cost less. Better options should cost more, that's pretty much the cornerstone of the game balance. This does not happen with the lightning claw.

Well, you'd still use all your attacks with the AP3 of the powersword, but have the +1 attack from also having the chain sword. No shooting of course and, unless sent after the Team's specific threat would get no re-rolls or with Aquila re-roll 1s
The rest of the squad could shoot for that model.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I won't tell you how many DW pads I've bits ordered over the years then...

You can I won't judge. Looks at battle company of Deathwatch Marines.
Real question missile launchers and regular heavy bolters available to DW?

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I won't tell you how many DW pads I've bits ordered over the years then...

You can I won't judge. Looks at battle company of Deathwatch Marines.
Real question missile launchers and regular heavy bolters available to DW?

They were in the link of screen shots of the book that was posted.

I wish there was a way to switch the CCW for a Bolt Pistol on the Veteran Squads. Instead I will just swap the CCW for a shotgun. Thanks GW.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I wish there was a way to switch the CCW for a Bolt Pistol on the Veteran Squads. Instead I will just swap the CCW for a shotgun. Thanks GW.

I'd like to think they didn't intend the shotgun shenanigans, but with the other gak they rule(and eldar) it's impossible to tell. RAW go!

 Bulldogging wrote:

I'd like to think they didn't intend the shotgun shenanigans, but with the other gak they rule(and eldar) it's impossible to tell. RAW go!

Well, I'm pretty sure that they didn't intend it, considering that it also allows equipping a single model with two heavy weapons!

 Crimson wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:

I'd like to think they didn't intend the shotgun shenanigans, but with the other gak they rule(and eldar) it's impossible to tell. RAW go!

Well, I'm pretty sure that they didn't intend it, considering that it also allows equipping a single model with two heavy weapons!

Now that would be awesome.

Went thru the leaks, not very impressed with the codex, I doubt much of a tournament army can be build from it.

Too high costs for just marines and no free transports, they will just die like any other MEQ. The DW veterans are just slightly better than Imperial Fist Sternguards if run in those kills teams.

I think those bikes are probably the only unit worth spamming. I'd still go with Ravenwing over them because of the dark shroud.

This army had me sold at the models and the deathwatch finally becoming their own real codex. regardless of power levels, I am happy.

i think testing will see if they are at a similar power level to the Tau or just under it. For which I am thankful. I wish they would tone down the power of all the super powered codices. I might actually be able to convince the scrubs around me to play me again. Despite not even using cheesy lists in the first place.

Sadly, I don't think most of the options will be usable. I foresee two veteran squad loadouts that will be be spammed. 1) Snipers with backup bolters accompanied by a librarian with the shielding relic. 2) The frag cannon spam with some extra bodies with bolters. Backup shotguns for everyone for massive wall of death, except maybe some meltas instead shotguns for few guys. Possibly couple of storm shields at the first rank. Add a librarian or single vanguard (can be one of the shield guys) to make it aquila-compliant.

I just don't see the melee stuff being viable, the weapons are just overpriced.

I hope I'm wrong!