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 Wolfblade wrote:

It's a bit of a grey area, there's nothing telling you that you can or can't exchange the chainsword for the bolter, then the bolter for whatever,

Exactly, so until its clarified, I, like many others I imagine, will make some squads with stalkers or bolters and shotguns.

Yeah, I think (hope) bolters and shotguns will remain legal, but I doubt stalkers AND shotguns will, mostly because I don't think they intended for that type of interaction in the wargear section.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Yeah, I think (hope) bolters and shotguns will remain legal, but I doubt stalkers AND shotguns will, mostly because I don't think they intended for that type of interaction in the wargear section.

I really hope stalkers and shotguns remain legal. It'd be a fun and cheap way to load out a squad for a variety of targets. Plus the modelling opportunities would be cool.

Yeah, but I don't think it fits the RAI judging by other rulings (i.e. apoth not being able to take any vet upgrades, even though those are listed before the upgrade to apoth)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Which you can do. Or if you can't Space Marine bikers can't have special weapons.

That's really an errata fix, otherwise it falls into a grey area of "can you exchange bought wargear for more wargear", as nothing prohibits it or allows you to exchange wargear like that (as HIWPI/my interpretation of RAI is you can't do multiple exchanges of wargear like that)

No. Look at the biker entry at the current marine codex. It is right there.

Yeah, they have never stated an order of operations for things occurring, just that certain things prevent you from meeting the requirements of other swaps. No reason to think you can't swap and then swap.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Which you can do. Or if you can't Space Marine bikers can't have special weapons.

That's really an errata fix, otherwise it falls into a grey area of "can you exchange bought wargear for more wargear", as nothing prohibits it or allows you to exchange wargear like that (as HIWPI/my interpretation of RAI is you can't do multiple exchanges of wargear like that)

No. Look at the biker entry at the current marine codex. It is right there.

Right, and that seems more like it requires an errata to add bolt pistols there. Otherwise it falls into the grey area of nothing granting permission to swap wargear, then swap wargear again.

Dumb rules question because it's been too long - does a Gargantuan Creature get wounded on a 2+ with Hellfire rounds? What about with a Stalker bolter shooting the same rounds, does Sniper and Fleshbane counter act?


Edit: Wait, it's Poisoned 2+ instead of Fleshbane, duh. It's always a 6+ against GCs.

I made my first squad. (Pictures here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/408416.page#8866144)

Two extra guys.
Three frag cannons.
Two storm shields (in the front to protect the expensive cannons.)
Sergeant with a powerfist and auspex (not optimal, I know, but I wanted to give him a melee weapon, and I hate lightning claws on PA marines, so...)

These will probably be joined by a Librarian, to make the squad aquila complinat (I made two librarians and two inquisitors to boost my squads.)

I will probably add one more bolter guy and one frag cannon once I get more bits. That will make it ten models with the librarian included.

Still not sure about the transport. Drop pod probably... though I hate building and painting those.


I also plan making a sniper squad. (I only could build one stalker guy, I ordered more stalker bolters. They can't get here soon enough.)
I also want to build a melee squad, as sub-optimal as that might be.

So I am clear, a Black Shield can take melee, ranged, special weapons, storm shield or heavy thunder hammer, right?

They just can't get the Watch Sergeant gear.

 kronk wrote:
So I am clear, a Black Shield can take melee, ranged, special weapons, storm shield or heavy thunder hammer, right?

They just can't get the Watch Sergeant gear.

They can take anything but Sgt wargear, heavy weapons, and the HTH as that specifies veterans only.

So, who is taking HTH's in their teams?

I am on a VV for Kill Team games - fast moving thwacking sticks can be pretty handy, even if it is at I1.

 Selym wrote:
So, who is taking HTH's in their teams?

I am on a VV for Kill Team games - fast moving thwacking sticks can be pretty handy, even if it is at I1.

I am only taking them on VVs. They need the mobility. I think if I were to make full VV squads, the other three members would have Storm Shields to take the impact from earlier attacks and then let the HTH do their work. I currently have two VV HTH attached to my Aquila and Dominatus Kill teams.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So I am clear, a Black Shield can take melee, ranged, special weapons, storm shield or heavy thunder hammer, right?

They just can't get the Watch Sergeant gear.

They can take anything but Sgt wargear, heavy weapons, and the HTH as that specifies veterans only.

Thank you.

 kronk wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So I am clear, a Black Shield can take melee, ranged, special weapons, storm shield or heavy thunder hammer, right?

They just can't get the Watch Sergeant gear.

They can take anything but Sgt wargear, heavy weapons, and the HTH as that specifies veterans only.

Thank you.

No problem. It's a little silly that black shields can't get HTHs, being the melee specialist in the group. (or for that matter, being locked to vets only)

 Blacksails wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

It's a bit of a grey area, there's nothing telling you that you can or can't exchange the chainsword for the bolter, then the bolter for whatever,

Exactly, so until its clarified, I, like many others I imagine, will make some squads with stalkers or bolters and shotguns.

I wouldn't, however, model any of them carrying both. Don't want to spend that extra modelling effort just to have it negated (potentially) by a single sentence from GW.

I am just failing to see where the assumption that you can't is coming from. You have always been able to do these sorts of things in the past, it just never offered a clear advantage so no one said anything. Now that it suddenly might be useful everyone acts as if it is not going to work.

 Leth wrote:
I am just failing to see where the assumption that you can't is coming from. You have always been able to do these sorts of things in the past, it just never offered a clear advantage so no one said anything. Now that it suddenly might be useful everyone acts as if it is not going to work.

40k is a permissive rule set, if you're not told you can, you can't do it. (in this case you're told you can trade your bolter out, but there's nothing saying you can trade your bolter out after trading a chainsword for the bolter)

it gives you permission to swap x for y. Why would it matter if you swap z for x first, then X to y. You are given permission to do both.

 Leth wrote:
it gives you permission to swap x for y. Why would it matter if you swap z for x first, then X to y. You are given permission to do both.

Because there is no order of operations specified for buying wargear, and again, there's nothing saying you may swap the "purchased" bolter for something (compared to say, something allowing a captain to swap his storm bolter after getting termie armor)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Leth wrote:
it gives you permission to swap x for y. Why would it matter if you swap z for x first, then X to y. You are given permission to do both.

Because there is no order of operations specified for buying wargear, and again, there's nothing saying you may swap the "purchased" bolter for something (compared to say, something allowing a captain to swap his storm bolter after getting termie armor)

Where does it say there is a rules difference between a purchased bolter and a regular bolter? As far as the rules are concerned a bolter is a bolter.

 Leth wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Leth wrote:
it gives you permission to swap x for y. Why would it matter if you swap z for x first, then X to y. You are given permission to do both.

Because there is no order of operations specified for buying wargear, and again, there's nothing saying you may swap the "purchased" bolter for something (compared to say, something allowing a captain to swap his storm bolter after getting termie armor)

Where does it say there is a rules difference between a purchased bolter and a regular bolter? As far as the rules are concerned a bolter is a bolter.

Where does it say you can swap wargear for more wargear like that? Normally it has to give explicit permission (i.e. buying termie armor, then swapping the storm bolter or power weapon)

Hey guys, gals and thunderhawk gunships (or however you identify)

As per my original promise in the OP, I went and combed through everything talked about here and updated the OP with those ideas, as a compendium for ease of access for all of us and new users.

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Just quickly, I think theres been enough discussion on the swapping wargear mallarcky. No-one is agreeing on anything. I'm in the camp that you swap wargear once, not multiple times, 40k is written in such a way that if there is no rule saying you can do it, you cant.

Regardless, I think it's down to asking your opponent/store manage/club manager/event organiser for a ruling and working with it until/IF we get an FAQ from GW.

So let's move on to more useful discussions shall we?

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I'd love to know more about allies. It's what I didn't have much to write down on the OP and I know it's going to be a common question.

Are you going to use Deathwatch as allies? If so you're going to use killteams right? build them up and nuke their specific targets?

What are you going to take with your Deathwatch main force? I was thinking IG with max priests for rerollable armour saves on my deathwatch deathstars.

------------

Cheers all,

Qwerty

Qwerty2jam wrote:


I'd love to know more about allies. It's what I didn't have much to write down on the OP and I know it's going to be a common question.

Are you going to use Deathwatch as allies? If so you're going to use killteams right? build them up and nuke their specific targets?

What are you going to take with your Deathwatch main force? I was thinking IG with max priests for rerollable armour saves on my deathwatch deathstars.

I'm looking at running an Aquila Kill-Team formation, probably with a Librarian and 4x Frag Cannons in a drop pod. It gives my Black Templars a fluffy-ally with psychic powers (and 2 extra dice to block opponent's powers), something to kill/injure GMC's, and they all look cool.

 Leth wrote:
I am just failing to see where the assumption that you can't is coming from. You have always been able to do these sorts of things in the past, it just never offered a clear advantage so no one said anything. Now that it suddenly might be useful everyone acts as if it is not going to work.

It possibly comes from past experience. You could not, in fact, "always ... do these sorts of things in the past", as there was a time when there were specific limits on how many and what kinds of weapons a model could carry. Much of that tradition still makes its way into GW's list writing, even though it's rarely an actual rule anymore and mostly remains just that: tradition.

So, yeah, generally speaking, the idea of an infantry model only carrying one main gun (not counting pistols) is one of those things that's been around awhile and probably just taken for granted at this point.

When I said past, I meant in this edition. They even released a specific errata to a unit entry saying they may swap X. The only reason for this was that X could be swapped for y.

Anyway it's a circular argument.

The main unit I am currently looking at is a Aquila with 4 veterans, a frag cannon, and a biker. This gives split fire for the squad to fire off the frag cannon elsewhere. Not bad for 165 points.

Another option depending on allies was a Aquila stalker squad with a cataphracti captain from space marines, however I think he is better spent on a squad from his own army, benefits of chapter tactics as well as other faction specific bonuses.

Strongly considering raptors tactics to go along with the deathwatch as it is durable on turn one while also having rending bolters to help against a bunch of targets.

So, with all the rerolls the Kill Teams get, can we all agree to save points by not buying digital weapons?

Also, I have been building lists all day of DW allied with my Inquisition henchmen (which were already supposed to be allies to my Grey Knights). Does anyone else have narrative problems with putting DW and GK in the same army? Because I have so many GK models and it seems like tactically they would be a good fit. DW gets access to drop pods, better shooting, and better fliers than the GK. Or does the highly elite, low model count DW need more bodies instead?

Anyway, here's a list I want to try soon:

++Black Spear Strike Force++
-Watch Master (librarian in lower points games)
-Dreadnought in a drop pod with teleport beacon
-Aquila or Furor KT
-- mix of frag cannons and bolters
-- THSS terminator
-- Maybe another librarian or biker

Spam enough Inquisitors with psykers and bolter acolytes in razorbacks to fill points. Heavy weapon servitors for some more firepower.

The one drop pod comes in on Turn 1 to wreck a transport or other big threat. Transports rush to objectives and pop smoke or drop off passengers. Turn 2 (hopefully; Inq has plenty of tricks to get better reserve rolls) the KT teleports in near the DP homer or maybe a servo-skull. Meanwhile, the MSU henchmen are claiming objectives, distracting bigger units, or placing opportunistic meltabombs.

So what is the verdict on the Infernus Heavy Bolter. It actually seems pretty cool, but it is pretty expensive. In terms of offense, it has sizeable range at 36", and is an assault weapon so the unit can charge afterward. The template helps with Ignores Cover and makes units charging take a second thought since Wall of Death. The problem is, where one can take these, they can take a Frag Cannon and get a bit more out of it at the small cost of five points more.

Pretty much. As cool as it is thematically (And I've been wanting a weapon like that for some time) The Frag Cannon just invalidates it.

Would have been cool to get a DW Heavy weapon option that didn't overlap design space with the Frag Cannon so much.

A Special issue Missile launcher with Rad, Stasis missiles etc would have been really cool.

 Eldarain wrote:
Pretty much. As cool as it is thematically (And I've been wanting a weapon like that for some time) The Frag Cannon just invalidates it.

Would have been cool to get a DW Heavy weapon option that didn't overlap design space with the Frag Cannon so much.

A Special issue Missile launcher with Rad, Stasis missiles etc would have been really cool.

A long range weapon would be cool. Like a Veteran support squad that rains down hell from far away in support from their brothers. A ML with Special Issue Missiles would be awesome!

How about Variable Speed Lascannons. They can reduce their range down by 12" increments. At 36" they become Str 10. At 24" they become Str D. Or maybe give them something like the Xenophase Blade, where targets have to reroll their Invulnerable saves.