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SemperMortis wrote:
considering how much complaining and fighting has been done on the topic of sister of battle and how they need a new model line, if GW ever does release new SoB codex and model line I would want them to sell out instantly and if they didn't I would want GW to say Feth it and Squat the whole line

For all the complaining and fighting that goes on page after page.... you'll note it's the same handful of people throughout the thread, which is the same handful of people through the previous thread, which was they same handful of people through the previous previous thread

Goodness knows realistically how many people would want Sisters if new models came out, these days because of the extremely lax 40k rules I guess a lot of people might want to buy allied contingents of them.

 Gogsnik wrote:
To use your own words to show why this whole line of discussion is specious:

The point isn't whether the people throwing out the accusations are correct, the point is that they can make a political point out of it.

The Frateris Militia encompasses all manner of individuals with associations to the Ministorum. A political opponent, as per the example used, could simply claim that the Ecclesiarchy were raising 'men under arms' and thereby breaking the Decree Passive thus allowing this political opponent to do whatever it is they hope to do by making such a claim.

And just as you have already said, "The point isn't whether the people throwing out the accusations are correct, the point is that they can make a political point out of it."


This is why it is a specious argument (amongst us real people in the thread, not in-universe), seemingly plausible yet, with very little critical thinking applied, utterly ridiculous.

You seem to be running off a very simplified interpretation of how politics work. An opponent could try and score points by claiming that either the Sisters or the Frateris are breaches of the Decree Passive. Whether those attacks would work or not is dependent on how well they were prepared, and the Ecclesiarchy spends time and energy defending itself from potential attacks by keeping the Frateris decentralized and informal ('men', not necessarily 'under arms'), and by playing up the theatrical role of the Sisters as 'women under arms' rather than 'men under arms'.

The fact that they're vulnerable to attack from one angle doesn't override the fact that they're vulnerable to attack from another angle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Personally I'd be really happy to just avoid the lore discussions and stick with just maintaining an aesthetic that still looks good after 20 years, and disregard the notion of practical design even being a consideration in a technologically backwards faction that makes things like the Taurox where it has four treads but none of the treads are actually long enough to be more useful than wheels.

I was trying, but apparently a simple clarification of an earlier lore point is too complicated to get over with in a post or two.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
considering how much complaining and fighting has been done on the topic of sister of battle and how they need a new model line, if GW ever does release new SoB codex and model line I would want them to sell out instantly and if they didn't I would want GW to say Feth it and Squat the whole line

For all the complaining and fighting that goes on page after page.... you'll note it's the same handful of people throughout the thread, which is the same handful of people through the previous thread, which was they same handful of people through the previous previous thread

Goodness knows realistically how many people would want Sisters if new models came out, these days because of the extremely lax 40k rules I guess a lot of people might want to buy allied contingents of them.

I brought up plastic Sisters of Battle with my local gaming store's... employee who happened to be working that day. He said I'd never be able to buy any of the store's supply because he was going to buy it all.

Maybe it's just that most of the people who might play the faction if it had plastic models simply avoid these threads since they're not very fun, and they realize posting about it's not going to make it happen.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
...Except such accusations could easily be rebuffed by a simple examination of the individual involved...

I'm going to repeat myself here. "The gender of the people in the army is irrelevant." The point isn't whether the people throwing out the accusations are correct, the point is that they can make a political point out of it.

And my point is that boob plate would do nothing to disuade those people from making that point. They could point to any butch sister and declare them a man. They could declare they saw a man regardless of the attractiveness of the sisters he saw. He could declare he saw a man even if he never saw a sister in his life. Anyone willing to make such ridiculous accusations because he didn't find a Sister attractive probably doesn't care or need evidence. Even you yourself admit this since that is the crux of your argument.

My overall point is that no one of importance would believe them because it would be such a ridiculous claim. And if they did boob plate wouldn't make an iota of difference.

You're wandering off into the weeds here. 'Attractiveness' is an irrelevant point, and this isn't about an individual trying to convince a person in power. This is about the delicate balance of power that is large bureaucratic systems and the power of political theatre.

The Imperium (like any large state) is composed of a mishmash of departments trying to push their own agenda. If someone in power (let's call him Lord Fargle from the Munitorium) wants something that conflicts with the Ecclesiarchy's agenda (let's say he wants to divert a shipment of fine Ultramar marble destined for Ecclesiarch Hans' new palace to his own) he could stand up in a meeting of the High Lords and say 'Ecclesiarch Hans is flaunting the Decree Passive! Look at these images of the men under arms he's maintaining! Look at these witnesses I've collected who agree with me! He should be handed over to the Inquisition for investigation!'.

And nobody in the room is going to care what the genitals behind the armour look like. They're going to take one side or the other based on their own agendas; it may suit them at that point to look like Fargle's evidence is convincing, it may suit them to remain unconvinced. They may want something from one or the other. They may need to appear to be more or less zealous at that point in time.

And yes, Lord Fargle could absolutely do all of this without the Battle Sisters as a sticking point. He could pick on something else, he could make up an illegitimate abhuman child or cult involvement or something else entirely, but the more strictly Ecclesiarch Hans APPEARS to toe the line the harder it is for Fargle to make something stick.

My point is that the facts of the case are vastly less important than the theater, and the costuming in this case is a component of the theater.

Okay, and my point is that the boob plate is largely irrelevant since it is hardly a bullet proof defence against such ridiculous accusations. In your scenario, Fargle could make any insinuation of violations of the degree passive. Evidence can be falsified. Witnesses can be bribed.

But this is pretty much hypothetical v hypothetical. So why don't we just agree to disagree before we drag this on for pages?

 Pouncey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
considering how much complaining and fighting has been done on the topic of sister of battle and how they need a new model line, if GW ever does release new SoB codex and model line I would want them to sell out instantly and if they didn't I would want GW to say Feth it and Squat the whole line

For all the complaining and fighting that goes on page after page.... you'll note it's the same handful of people throughout the thread, which is the same handful of people through the previous thread, which was they same handful of people through the previous previous thread

Goodness knows realistically how many people would want Sisters if new models came out, these days because of the extremely lax 40k rules I guess a lot of people might want to buy allied contingents of them.

I brought up plastic Sisters of Battle with my local gaming store's... employee who happened to be working that day. He said I'd never be able to buy any of the store's supply because he was going to buy it all.

Maybe it's just that most of the people who might play the faction if it had plastic models simply avoid these threads since they're not very fun, and they realize posting about it's not going to make it happen.

Anecdotal evidence like that is mostly useless. Quirky things will often have small groups of fans who'll buy out a store's supply in one hit, but overall might struggle to break even.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
considering how much complaining and fighting has been done on the topic of sister of battle and how they need a new model line, if GW ever does release new SoB codex and model line I would want them to sell out instantly and if they didn't I would want GW to say Feth it and Squat the whole line

For all the complaining and fighting that goes on page after page.... you'll note it's the same handful of people throughout the thread, which is the same handful of people through the previous thread, which was they same handful of people through the previous previous thread

Goodness knows realistically how many people would want Sisters if new models came out, these days because of the extremely lax 40k rules I guess a lot of people might want to buy allied contingents of them.

I brought up plastic Sisters of Battle with my local gaming store's... employee who happened to be working that day. He said I'd never be able to buy any of the store's supply because he was going to buy it all.

Maybe it's just that most of the people who might play the faction if it had plastic models simply avoid these threads since they're not very fun, and they realize posting about it's not going to make it happen.

Anecdotal evidence like that is mostly useless. Quirky things will often have small groups of fans who'll buy out a store's supply in one hit, but overall might struggle to break even.

I don't think we can really answer how many people would buy plastic Sisters of Battle without doing a poll that extends beyond Dakka and covers every major 40k wargaming community that we can find.

So... anecdotal evidence is the best I can do, unfortunately.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You seem to be running off a very simplified interpretation of how politics work.

Am I really? And here I thought I was calling absolute BS on this line of reasoning as to why models of Sisters of Battle must have hyper-feminised armour.

 Gogsnik wrote:

This is why it is a specious argument (amongst us real people in the thread, not in-universe), seemingly plausible yet, with very little critical thinking applied, utterly ridiculous.

 Pouncey wrote:
And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

Actually, they just need to look different from Space Marines, and they need to look different from Eldars, and they need to look different from Stormtroopers. There is a lot of design space to play with that doesn't necessarily mandate sexualization, much less the hypersexualization / bondage / fetish look from 2E.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

Actually, they just need to look different from Space Marines, and they need to look different from Eldars, and they need to look different from Stormtroopers. There is a lot of design space to play with that doesn't necessarily mandate sexualization, much less the hypersexualization / bondage / fetish look from 2E.

How much did the look of Space Marines change from what it used to be in 2nd edition?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
...So why haven't Space Marines got giant penises hanging off their power armour to show they're male?

Some of the codpeices are pushing it.

Also because the legal justification for the existence of Space Marines isn't gender-dependent.

More importantly, official canon states unequivocally that the SM process is not possible for females. Full stop. It's an all He-Man Woman-Hater's Club.

Now, that doesn't preclude SMs from being ragingly gay (they totally are!), but that's another discussion.

 Gogsnik wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You seem to be running off a very simplified interpretation of how politics work.

Am I really? And here I thought I was calling absolute BS on this line of reasoning as to why models of Sisters of Battle must have hyper-feminised armour.

Last I checked I was trying to clarify an in-universe justification for Battle Sisters having distinctly feminine as opposed to androgynous armour, not giving an argument why they must have 'hyper-feminised' armour. I was trying to help with an argument I thought was getting off track, I wasn't trying to hop in on the deep end of an extreme position.

I realize I didn't clarify that particularly well when I hopped into this fight and that's my bad, but I'd appreciate not being strawmanned now that I've made my actual position clear.

 Gogsnik wrote:

OMFG. Dying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If the Ecclesiarchy were to have troops that were ambiguous or masculine in appearance someone else in the mechanism of the Imperial government could use that to accuse them of flaunting or violating the Decree Passive, and use that as leverage to damage the Ecclesiarchy's political position in some way.

Except such accusations could easily be rebuffed by a simple examination of the individual involved.

As a rival Inquisitor, nothing would please me more than to subject a unit of Battle Sisters to such a "simple examination".

Which, BTW, is hugely invasive and degrading.

Which is why, as a rival Inquisitor, I'd do it. Not because I gave the slightest care as to the accusation or the result, but because it is a demonstration of power over the Ecclesiarchy.

And doing so to Battle Sisters is especially powerful, because you necessarily strip them of their armor in the process.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
...So why haven't Space Marines got giant penises hanging off their power armour to show they're male?

Some of the codpeices are pushing it.

Also because the legal justification for the existence of Space Marines isn't gender-dependent.

More importantly, official canon states unequivocally that the SM process is not possible for females. Full stop. It's an all He-Man Woman-Hater's Club.

Now, that doesn't preclude SMs from being ragingly gay (they totally are!), but that's another discussion.

You're making a bit of a leap here. 'Being female' is a large part of the Battle Sisters' identity in-universe because of the circumstances of their founding, not because they're all women. 'Being male' isn't a large part of the Space Marines' identity in-universe, whether they're all men or not.

No, I'm not. Official canon specifically stated that women cannot become Space Marines, that they do not survive the process.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As a rival Inquisitor, nothing would please me more than to subject a unit of Battle Sisters to such a "simple examination".

Which, BTW, is hugely invasive and degrading.

Which is why, as a rival Inquisitor, I'd do it. Not because I gave the slightest care as to the accusation or the result, but because it is a demonstration of power over the Ecclesiarchy.

And doing so to Battle Sisters is especially powerful, because you necessarily strip them of their armor in the process.

Sounds like a good reason for the Ecclesiarchy to find a way to avoid that happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, I'm not. Official canon specifically stated that women cannot become Space Marines, that they do not survive the process.

I think they meant that Space Marines generally don't care very much that they're all male, while Sisters of Battle care a lot more that they're all female because their origins.

I could be wrong though.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, I'm not. Official canon specifically stated that women cannot become Space Marines, that they do not survive the process.

I'm making no assertions about female Space Marines, I don't know why you're coming back to that.

'Gender is a large part of the army's identity' implies 'the army is all one gender', the reverse is not true. Unless you're suggesting Guard regiments should all be making a big deal out of their genders?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Snip

I can see now why people get such high post counts when they spend time in General Discussion.

To clarify the last few pages as briefly as possible, and I hold my hands up and take full responsibility for the whole mess, it was my picture that started it all off after all... Anyway, I put a picture into the thread (Not. My. Artwork) to show the general gist of the sort of look I will use as a basis for some SoB models I am planning to make. This picture irked Pouncey and from that came a, frankly, stupid, in-universe justification for why the models must look overtly feminine. I read the back-and-forth for a page or so and then could contain myself no-longer and with Pouncey-like levels of frothing rage (well maybe not quite that rage-filled) I just had to say what utter, utter drivel such a line of reasoning is. I apologise for this, I just couldn't stop myself.

Anyway, yeah, I guess that's quite enough of all that.


EDIT: Spelling! Again!!

 Gogsnik wrote:
To clarify the last few pages as briefly as possible, and I hold my hands up and take full responsibility for the whole mess, it was my picture that started it all off after all... Anyway, I put a picture into the thread (Not. My. Artwork) to show the general gist of the sort of look I will use as a basis for some SoB models I am planning to make.

I did encourage you, and I'm not sure I should feel bad about that. I must say it's was a cool, interesting design, it's not the direction I went in, but then I'm unreasonably attached to the faux-corset part of the current SoB design.

 Gogsnik wrote:

Anyway, it may be almost morbid to add more images to the thread but, here are a few more pictures, culled from the interwebs (absolutely not my artwork, I can't draw for toffee) that are all in my inspiration folder. And I know I'm only just introducing the word 'inspiration' to my posts but it might be useful to couch everything I say in terms of 'inspiration' and not as examples that I would slavishly and literally adhere to.

Spoiler:

Those are also very cool, and I think I get a better idea where you're going. I look forward to the final results of the project.

 Gogsnik wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Snip

I can see now why people get such high post counts when they spend time in General Discussion.

To clarify the last few pages as briefly as possible, and I hold my hands up and take full responsibility for the whole mess, it was my picture that started it all off after all... Anyway, I put a picture into the thread (Not. My. Artwork) to show the general gist of the sort of look I will use as a basis for some SoB models I am planning to make. This picture irked Pouncey and from that came a, frankly, stupid, in-universe justification for why the models must look overtly feminine. I read the back-and-forth for a page or so and then could contain myself no-longer and with Pouncey-like levels of frothing rage (well maybe not quite that rage-filled) I just had to say what utter, utter drivel such a line of reasoning is. I apologise for this, I just couldn't stop myself.

Anyway, yeah, I guess that's quite enough of all that.


EDIT: Spelling! Again!!

Actually I've used that lore justification previously. It's not like I came up with it today.

And the reason for my irking was a lot of factors coming together in a bad way all at the same time, not just your picture.

I'm motivated to crack on with my models now, it's something I've been planning for a long time and I only recently got some bits a pieces to get started with so, no excuses now.

 Gogsnik wrote:
I'm motivated to crack on with my models now, it's something I've been planning for a long time and I only recently got some bits a pieces to get started with so, no excuses now.

Okay.

Have fun! : D

 Gogsnik wrote:
I'm motivated to crack on with my models now, it's something I've been planning for a long time and I only recently got some bits a pieces to get started with so, no excuses now.

Wooo! Good luck!

I wonder...

In what way is the Imperium deciding to do anything in a practical manner even supported by the lore?

Their 40th millennium tanks use design decisions that went out of style before World War 2. Their understanding of science is so lacking that it effectively no longer exists. Ignorance is considered a positive trait, and tradition is hugely important.

Do they even have the understanding of physics anymore that would be needed to design power armor that is actually practical?

 Pouncey wrote:
I don't think we can really answer how many people would buy plastic Sisters of Battle without doing a poll that extends beyond Dakka and covers every major 40k wargaming community that we can find.

So... anecdotal evidence is the best I can do, unfortunately.

It was a long time ago, but I can only imagine Sisters didn't sell well when they first came out back in 2nd edition otherwise GW surely would have pursued them harder.

Necrons also came out around the same time in all metal and managed to get picked up as a full army and converted to plastic in the next edition.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I don't think we can really answer how many people would buy plastic Sisters of Battle without doing a poll that extends beyond Dakka and covers every major 40k wargaming community that we can find.

So... anecdotal evidence is the best I can do, unfortunately.

It was a long time ago, but I can only imagine Sisters didn't sell well when they first came out back in 2nd edition otherwise GW surely would have pursued them harder.

Necrons also came out around the same time in all metal and managed to get picked up as a full army and converted to plastic in the next edition.

2nd was almost 20 years ago...

And if you find people who like the Sisters of Battle and want to play them, but don't, and ask them why they don't have an army, the number 1 reason you'll get is that they're too expensive. The number 2 reason is that all their models are metal.

Going to plastic models solves both of those problems.

 Pouncey wrote:
And, as a schizophrenic, I rely heavily on being able to trust the people around me. My functioning as a human being relies on people not trying to deceive me, or lie to me, or trick me. Because my mind sometimes deceives itself, so I have to rely on the people around me telling me the truth to know what's going on. So, being lied to is one of the worst things that can happen to me. And I felt like you lied to me to get me in favor of changing the one army I love in Warhammer 40k, a game I've spent 15 years of my life being into, into something I wouldn't even recognize or even like whatsoever.

We were not trying to trick or deceive you. We just had a different appreciation of how different from the current look that fan-art was from the current aesthetic.
Subjective stuff is subjective but we were in good faith.

 Pouncey wrote:
Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?

Yeah, we do. That's why I didn't answer in an aggressive fashion, or report you, but rather tried to explain calmly and without being antagonistic why you went too far. It's okay, we understand.

 Pouncey wrote:
When the only reason the Ecclesiarchy even has an army of powered armored troops at all is because they're female, yes, yes I think they absolutely should look as female as possible.

I disagree with that statement. I mean, let's look at the timeline of the lore together. At the death ot the Emperor, when Guilliman (and possibly the other high lords) decided that not only should the marines be split into chapters, but also the Imperial Army should be split between between the Navy and the Guard, the Ecclesiarchy didn't even exist. So they were not affected by this. Then later, the Ecclesiarchy began growing and growing, ended up becoming the official religion of the Imperium, and having a lot of power. At this point, they started building a huge army, the Frateris Militia. When the leader of the Administratum, Goge Vandire, decided to kill the current Ecclesiarch and take his place, he did create the direct ancestor of the Sisters of Battle, i.e. the Brides of the Emperor. When he was deposed by a combined force of Space Marines and Mechanicum, the Imperium needed a new Ecclesiarch, someone who could bring the very, very much required stability at this time in the Imperium. And the only man that could do that was Sebastian Thor. But Sebastian Thor didn't want to. So they had to bargain with him. Part of the negotiation was about if the Ecclesiarchy should have armed forces or not. Thor wanted them to keep having some military might, at the very least to be able to defend themselves. The people that were trying to force him to become Ecclesiarch wanted to disband all the Ecclesiarchy's military forces. The middle ground they found was the Decree Passive, but it only worked as a middle ground because it allowed the Sisters of Battle to remain active. Else Thor wouldn't have agreed to it. So, basically, the only reason the Ecclesiarchy even has an army of powered armored troops at all is that Thor made this one of the condition for him to accept to be Ecclesiarch. The fact they are all women is a by-product of history.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
And, as a schizophrenic, I rely heavily on being able to trust the people around me. My functioning as a human being relies on people not trying to deceive me, or lie to me, or trick me. Because my mind sometimes deceives itself, so I have to rely on the people around me telling me the truth to know what's going on. So, being lied to is one of the worst things that can happen to me. And I felt like you lied to me to get me in favor of changing the one army I love in Warhammer 40k, a game I've spent 15 years of my life being into, into something I wouldn't even recognize or even like whatsoever.

We were not trying to trick or deceive you. We just had a different appreciation of how different from the current look that fan-art was from the current aesthetic.
Subjective stuff is subjective but we were in good faith.

 Pouncey wrote:
Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?

Yeah, we do. That's why I didn't answer in an aggressive fashion, or report you, but rather tried to explain calmly and without being antagonistic why you went too far. It's okay, we understand.

 Pouncey wrote:
When the only reason the Ecclesiarchy even has an army of powered armored troops at all is because they're female, yes, yes I think they absolutely should look as female as possible.

I disagree with that statement. I mean, let's look at the timeline of the lore together. At the death ot the Emperor, when Guilliman (and possibly the other high lords) decided that not only should the marines be split into chapters, but also the Imperial Army should be split between between the Navy and the Guard, the Ecclesiarchy didn't even exist. So they were not affected by this. Then later, the Ecclesiarchy began growing and growing, ended up becoming the official religion of the Imperium, and having a lot of power. At this point, they started building a huge army, the Frateris Militia. When the leader of the Administratum, Goge Vandire, decided to kill the current Ecclesiarch and take his place, he did create the direct ancestor of the Sisters of Battle, i.e. the Brides of the Emperor. When he was deposed by a combined force of Space Marines and Mechanicum, the Imperium needed a new Ecclesiarch, someone who could bring the very, very much required stability at this time in the Imperium. And the only man that could do that was Sebastian Thor. But Sebastian Thor didn't want to. So they had to bargain with him. Part of the negotiation was about if the Ecclesiarchy should have armed forces or not. Thor wanted them to keep having some military might, at the very least to be able to defend themselves. The people that were trying to force him to become Ecclesiarch wanted to disband all the Ecclesiarchy's military forces. The middle ground they found was the Decree Passive, but it only worked as a middle ground because it allowed the Sisters of Battle to remain active. Else Thor wouldn't have agreed to it. So, basically, the only reason the Ecclesiarchy even has an army of powered armored troops at all is that Thor made this one of the condition for him to accept to be Ecclesiarch. The fact they are all women is a by-product of history.

Assuming all that's true, and I know almost all of it is, with some minor parts of it possibly being things I didn't know about before, that's a pretty good point.

So I'm going to abandon my attempts at justifying it the way I was. I was planning on doing so anyways, as it's never convinced anyone, only let to conclusionless arguments, and isn't much fun anyways.

So my new argument is really a counter-argument against changing the look of the armor. The changes to the aesthetic that are being suggested are from a point of practicality, but looking at the design of all of the Imperium's equipment and vehicles, it's impossible to come to the conclusion that they even consider practicality in their designs.

Leman Russes use design decisions in the shape of tanks that went out of style before World War 2 happened. The Taurox has treads but none of them are long enough to actually cross terrain that wheels couldn't. Space Marine aircraft lack enough aerodynamics to even stay airborne, yet include tiny, useless wings for some reason. Chimeras have treads so close to the hull that any ground that's softer than a solid road is going to get them stuck. Cadian flak vests protect the upper torso but leave the abdomen exposed. Catachans often wear a literal vest that doesn't even cover their hearts, and sometimes eschew flak armor at all. Titans in general are a war machine idea that even modern militaries would never develop due to their uselessness. The Exorcist and its missile launcher is an utterly bizarre and terrible way to even conceptualize a rocket artillery tank.

So why, in this one, particular case, would the Imperium choose to make something practical when they devote so many resources to vehicles and equipment that have little to no practicality in them whatsoever?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Marines are very secularized monks, the imagery and language are dramatically less religious than the Sisters'. They've lost touch with their monastic roots in favour of their own distinct sci-fi persona.

Tell that to the Chaplains.

Do you know who else has chaplains? And I mean people that are literally called chaplains, and are religious officers that takes care of the spiritual needs of the troops just like SM chaplains.
The French military.
Are they monks?

 Gogsnik wrote:

Spoiler:

And lastly just a bit of fun, y'know, a joke image...

Spoiler:

Lovely images .

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Imperium (like any large state) is composed of a mishmash of departments trying to push their own agenda. If someone in power (let's call him Lord Fargle from the Munitorium) wants something that conflicts with the Ecclesiarchy's agenda (let's say he wants to divert a shipment of fine Ultramar marble destined for Ecclesiarch Hans' new palace to his own) he could stand up in a meeting of the High Lords and say 'Ecclesiarch Hans is flaunting the Decree Passive! Look at these images of the men under arms he's maintaining! Look at these witnesses I've collected who agree with me! He should be handed over to the Inquisition for investigation!'.

That's a great political move. And by political move, I mean assisted suicide. Enjoy being an arco-flagellant, Lord Fargle .
Wasting an Inquisitor's time with baseless rumors, and making baseless accusation on one of the most powerful organization of the Imperium is not going to be good for one's health. Especially since that kind of extremely dumb move is not going to get you any support from the higher ups in your own organization.


Really, that's the dumbest move ever that you are proposing here. Surely the Sisters of Battle want to protect themselves from their political enemies commuting political suicide and ending up as a disposable part of their armies, waiting for the trigger word to start running and killing heretics. Unless you can develop your previous example into something that actually profits the accuser in any way? And that wouldn't be possible, or would be harder, by just accusing them of being corrupt?

 Pouncey wrote:
Assuming all that's true, and I know almost all of it is, with some minor parts of it possibly being things I didn't know about before, that's a pretty good point.

The details of the transition from Vandire to Thor come from Codex: Sisters of Battle from 2nd edition, and have never been mentioned since afaik.

 Pouncey wrote:
So my new argument is really a counter-argument against changing the look of the armor. The changes to the aesthetic that are being suggested are from a point of practicality, but looking at the design of all of the Imperium's equipment and vehicles, it's impossible to come to the conclusion that they even consider practicality in their designs.

Well, I explicitly said before in this conversation that I didn't want the Sisters' armor to look practical, so… ^^.
I would just enjoy a slightly different kind of impractical.

 Pouncey wrote:


I don't think we can really answer how many people would buy plastic Sisters of Battle without doing a poll that extends beyond Dakka and covers every major 40k wargaming community that we can find.

So... anecdotal evidence is the best I can do, unfortunately.

Hurray,
22 pages in and we're starting to move in the right direction...
So why can't we do this?
Make a very large poll/survey and present it to GW.
Cover online communities / GW stores / third party gaming communities.
Time and effort it the only reason that comes to mind but having spoken directly to easily more than 10 different people in the last month who agreed they'd buy sisters if GW made new models it may be worth that effort.
If we as a community can target multiple areas and provide stats that can be verified then we will be able to see whether we exist in bubbles or there really is demand.
In the end GW may well ignore the results (as I'd be inclined to suspect) but it'd like to know whether I have a point.
I'd say 60/70% of people in my gaming community have agreed they'd buy sisters even if only as an allied force and I'd like to see if that is reflected in other areas.

 Gogsnik wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Snip

I can see now why people get such high post counts when they spend time in General Discussion.

To clarify the last few pages as briefly as possible, and I hold my hands up and take full responsibility for the whole mess, it was my picture that started it all off after all... Anyway, I put a picture into the thread (Not. My. Artwork) to show the general gist of the sort of look I will use as a basis for some SoB models I am planning to make. This picture irked Pouncey and from that came a, frankly, stupid, in-universe justification for why the models must look overtly feminine. I read the back-and-forth for a page or so and then could contain myself no-longer and with Pouncey-like levels of frothing rage (well maybe not quite that rage-filled) I just had to say what utter, utter drivel such a line of reasoning is. I apologise for this, I just couldn't stop myself.

Anyway, yeah, I guess that's quite enough of all that.


EDIT: Spelling! Again!!

Passive-aggressiveness aside I appear to have a different understanding of how the Imperium works, from which the last few pages made perfect sense to me and looked like gibberish to people who view it as a more honest, monolithic, and well-organized system. This has gone far off track and isn't particularly productive anymore, I'll remark on other things but I'm done with this line of conversation.