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pepsuber wrote:
And here is where we revert to yet another fight over AoS when we are in a 40k thread.....

Indeed.


Please stick to the actual topic.


Thank you.

Black Legion(patchwork) and Crimson Slaughter(no-names) again?
Same old, same old.....
Still no real Legions.

 Vain wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Look at all the infighting and hurt egos....like in a real warband

Best thing in this thread!

Can I ask for opinions on why a similar system to chapter tactics for the Chaos Legions would be a good or bad thing?

Maybe throw in a couple of generic ones as well to represent the Renegades (Red Corsairs) and more daemony groups (Crimson Slaughter)

Some people want a chapter tactic like thing, however I like the mark system. Make it a bit better and make it free in certain situations. You want normal marines that are already expensive, and want to make them tougher, give the MoN. oh no now they are prohibitively expensive. The same can not be said about normal SMs. which is why I think the butt hurt happens. So the good thing is that it would bring them in line more closely to the no gak counter parts on the false emperor side, since they are technically marines with extra cool stuff to make them better, thanks to the blessing of a particular god. If you want to play unaligned, then you get no blessings, but you are not paying as much per squad member, so it can make up for it. I think the mark system is an original way to make CSM more chaos like, but it is just not capapble of keeping up with the creep of power of the last 4 years that has hit every other army, even if they do still lag behind, they all got to creep up, except CSM.

Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

In 2nd ed people were able to create a fluffy squat army. Things have moved on snce then.

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

Even though I sincerely doubt we'll see either in Traitors Hate, I think CSM chapter tactics for unaligned forces, and free marks for cult forces, would be a great idea.

I don't play 30K, do either Loyalist or Renegade Marines have chapter tactics in 30K, or are they something that loyalists developed over the last 10K years ?

 adamsouza wrote:
Even though I sincerely doubt we'll see either in Traitors Hate, I think CSM chapter tactics for unaligned forces, and free marks for cult forces, would be a great idea.

I don't play 30K, do either Loyalist or Renegade Marines have chapter tactics in 30K, or are they something that loyalists developed over the last 10K years ?

Every legion has their own legion rules and specific characters, units and wargear in 30k.

WayneTheGame wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

Yeah, the HH books that FW make are the gold standard as far as I'm concerned when it comes to using the same core list and writing rules for all the Legions off of that singular list. Apply that to 40K for Marines, Chaos Marines, Craftworld Eldar, Ork Klanz, hell, even Hive Fleets and Necron Dynasties and you'd have some amazing rules and variety in there.

Not Tau, obviously, 'cause y'know, screw Tau.

tneva82 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

By that logic, you don't need them for loyalist chapters either, yet they have them. Why shouldn't Chaos, when they have as much if not more variety between the different legions/forces?

tneva82 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

A big reason was that 2nd edition let you mix and match things a bit better. Now I'm going back close to 20 years so my memory is a bit vague and I don't feel like busting out my PDF of the 2nd edition book to check, but army building was different then. Stats were different. Options were different. It was easier to build a fluffy type of army. Also remember that there wasn't a lot of things then in the same way as there is now. A "fluffy" NIght Lords force in 2nd edition basically just didn't use daemons, because there were no Raptors/Warp Talons. A fluffy Iron Warriors force maybe just had more tanks, but there were no Obliterators or Chaos Vindicators and such, I can't even remember if there was a Chaos Land Raider back then, but there might have been. "fluff" came down to your choice of colors and that was basically it, because you were taking the same units. In fact, back in those days there wasn't even much care about what legion you picked, it was almost completely "I like the fluff/colors of this one" and that was it. There was no other reason to pick Night Lords over Word Bearers or Alpha Legion.

As the game evolves, there are more options to allow for fluffy beyond "My guys are Night Lords because they're painted dark blue with lightning" which is basically what you had back then anyways, since there wasn't anything in the list to point towards one legion or another, it was color and if you used cult troops/daemons, and that was virtually it. Sure, your Iron Warrior list might maybe use more Terminators and tanks, maybe you didn't use Bikes at all but the Night Lord player used a lot of bikers, things like that.

It's not really the same. Besides the argument here can be turned around: Space Marines don't need special snowflake rules either. Other than Space Wolves who are different enough, Blood Angels and Dark Angels maybe need one unique unit; if that, they don't need a completely different set of things. You could play a fluffy Imperial Fists or Iron Hands force in 2nd edition too, why do they need special rules now?

tneva82 wrote:


So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

well, 2nd edition was actually a hell of a lot more flexible than a lot of the subsequent lists, so you didn't particularly require individual Legion rules, following the Night Lords example:

- We had Chaos Space Marine Veterans with Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation as part of our 25%+ Squads allowance - want a Night Lords force making heavy use of infiltrators? go for it! don't need a named character or anything to make a whole army of infiltrators, they're one of your main units

Charax wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

well, 2nd edition was actually a hell of a lot more flexible than a lot of the subsequent lists, so you didn't particularly require individual Legion rules, following the Night Lords example:

- We had Chaos Space Marine Veterans with Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation as part of our 25%+ Squads allowance - want a Night Lords force making heavy use of infiltrators? go for it! don't need a named character or anything to make a whole army of infiltrators, they're one of your main units

I had forgotten about that part. Also Red Corsairs could IIRC take like 25% or something from Codex: Space Marines since they were new renegades, and with the Cultist appendix you could do a very fluffy Alpha Legion force. Word Bearers could easily have a lot of daemons and cultists too. Iron Warriors were the only ones that were kinda in the middle because they didn't have a ton of heavy guns back then, but even that could have been done, and the cults were all represented, and Black Legion would just be using a mix of it depending on which warband it was.

You could take Codex Marine stuff if you paid more for it. So you could have Chaos Land Speeders and people with power swords (yes, power swords weren't a thing Chaos forces had back then) to represent the fact that not all Renegade Marines do trade-in deals to get big stashes of Autocannons when they turn from the Emperor.

Huron had a rule that his force could take weapons, equipment and support options from Codex: Ultramarines and use Imperial wargear & Vehicle cards at no extra cost. Also Astral Claws terminators were chosen from the Ultramarines codex too

ANY other Chaos force could use imperial equipment or wargear options but had to pay a 50% premium for it (so if you wanted to swap your explodey Mk1 plasma for a reliable newer one, you could)

THAT'S why 2nd edition didn't have "Special snowflake" legion rules, the list was versatile enough not to require one, even in an edition where the Imperials were starting to get their own special snowflake books. Subsequent editions have stripped away options without replacing them with viable alternatives (with the notable exception of 3.5, which remains pretty much the best rules depiction of a "basic" CSM Marine so far)

tneva82 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

Because when my Iron Warriors CAD faces off against an Imperial Fist Sternhammer and my opponent has a plethora of special rules and formations reflecting his codex-compliant chapter's expertise at siege warfare inherited from their legion forebears and my army gets jack squat because GW don't care about Chaos it seriously hampers my ability to Forge The Narrative.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

Because when my Iron Warriors CAD faces off against an Imperial Fist Sternhammer and my opponent has a plethora of special rules and formations reflecting his codex-compliant chapter's expertise at siege warfare inherited from their legion forebears and my army gets jack squat because GW don't care about Chaos it seriously hampers my ability to Forge The Narrative.

Have you tried pretending to ride an imaginary horse?

Joyboozer wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

Because when my Iron Warriors CAD faces off against an Imperial Fist Sternhammer and my opponent has a plethora of special rules and formations reflecting his codex-compliant chapter's expertise at siege warfare inherited from their legion forebears and my army gets jack squat because GW don't care about Chaos it seriously hampers my ability to Forge The Narrative.

Have you tried pretending to ride an imaginary horse?

Does that get me rerolls or something? I must have missed that dataslate.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

Because when my Iron Warriors CAD faces off against an Imperial Fist Sternhammer and my opponent has a plethora of special rules and formations reflecting his codex-compliant chapter's expertise at siege warfare inherited from their legion forebears and my army gets jack squat because GW don't care about Chaos it seriously hampers my ability to Forge The Narrative.

Have you tried pretending to ride an imaginary horse?

Does that get me rerolls or something? I must have missed that dataslate.

Talk to your TO or your local gaming group about that.

Anyone have any idea when the next campaign book is due out after T.Hate? I expect quite soon (faster than Sanctus or S.o.Baal) with the storyline progression. Maybe 3-4 weeks? Now I wanna see where this goes.

tneva82 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.

Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.

The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.

So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.

Well my Night Lords forces can't even get Night Vision, so that's pretty annoying. (Unless I roll for a warlord trait) Dark Eldar have it armywide and Tau can get it pretty easy.

Chaos Chosen lost Infiltrate, so I can't even Infiltrate my Night Lords unless I roll for a specific Warlord Trait.

If I want Fear stuff for my non-Raptor Marines I have to go for Nurgle stuff.

There is another bit of rules that actually directly contradict Night Lords fluff. The whole ''Champions of Chaos'' rule that forces Night Lords characters to challenge people to fair fights despite their whole thing in the background being dirty pragmatic fighters who love attacking the weak.

From what little I've read on 2nd edition, I don't think you could have made a fluffy Night Lords army. I didn't play during 2nd edition so I can't really comment much on thsat, except that both fluff and rules have moved on since then. The Black Templars used to be in Codex: Ultramarines for example.

Iron Warriors have to issue challenges. There are instances in the fluff of Imperial Fists challenging Iron Warriors to duels and the Iron Warriors responding by shooting them in the face. Their primarch refused a challenge from Rogal Dorn just so he could watch him rage. And the rules require them to issue challenges.

Thousand Sons have to challenge. They do this so that they can receive mutations from Tzeentch when they win. If you know anything about the Thousand Sons and the Rubric of Ahriman you'll realize this rule is very fluffy. Good job GW studio.

The head of the organization that was responsible for introducing the psychic discipline of Divination to the Legiones Astartes cannot generate powers from Divination. This is also very fluffy.

Why should we need legion rules? Or rules with a modicum of thought and/or care behind them? They seem perfect already. Just use appropriate choices from the existing list to theme your army like you did in 2nd ed.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Iron Warriors have to issue challenges. There are instances in the fluff of Imperial Fists challenging Iron Warriors to duels and the Iron Warriors responding by shooting them in the face. Their primarch refused a challenge from Rogal Dorn just so he could watch him rage. And the rules require them to issue challenges.

Thousand Sons have to challenge. They do this so that they can receive mutations from Tzeentch when they win. If you know anything about the Thousand Sons and the Rubric of Ahriman you'll realize this rule is very fluffy. Good job GW studio.

The head of the organization that was responsible for introducing the psychic discipline of Divination to the Legiones Astartes cannot generate powers from Divination. This is also very fluffy.

Why should we need legion rules? Or rules with a modicum of thought and/or care behind them? They seem perfect already. Just use appropriate choices from the existing list to theme your army like you did in 2nd ed.

CSM don't necessarily need legion rules, but they are a small and incomplete army right now without a really unique identity and role. The legion rules and what a 10,000 year old space marine represents is a reasonable niche to fill and could make the army fun. An army of high costed veteran models that can pull their own weight despite being outnumbered for example. So what other angle is there to take CSM if we ignore their legion roots? We can't really expand on the demon angle because Daemons are their own army. So while it's nice to have a dark mechancus angle where we have demon possessed vehicles, it really can't be the driving force behind the army. We don't want to just be edgy, spikey Space Marines like we've had for the past 15 years because GW is clearly not up to the task. So what's left?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Iron Warriors have to issue challenges. There are instances in the fluff of Imperial Fists challenging Iron Warriors to duels and the Iron Warriors responding by shooting them in the face. Their primarch refused a challenge from Rogal Dorn just so he could watch him rage. And the rules require them to issue challenges.

Thousand Sons have to challenge. They do this so that they can receive mutations from Tzeentch when they win. If you know anything about the Thousand Sons and the Rubric of Ahriman you'll realize this rule is very fluffy. Good job GW studio.

The head of the organization that was responsible for introducing the psychic discipline of Divination to the Legiones Astartes cannot generate powers from Divination. This is also very fluffy.

Why should we need legion rules? Or rules with a modicum of thought and/or care behind them? They seem perfect already. Just use appropriate choices from the existing list to theme your army like you did in 2nd ed.

Trying to figure out if you are serious or sarcastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, has anyone gotten a confirmation of what favored of chaos is?

If the powers are similar I am just over here thinking that I can't wait to infiltrate a sorcerer from Ahriman's cabal and use Electrodisplacement to swap with Kharn and buddies to give them a turn 1 charge chance

 Brometheus wrote:
If the powers are similar I am just over here thinking that I can't wait to infiltrate a sorcerer from Ahriman's cabal and use Electrodisplacement to swap with Kharn and buddies to give them a turn 1 charge chance

Oh, that is just nasty. I love it.

 redleger wrote:

 Brometheus wrote:
If the powers are similar I am just over here thinking that I can't wait to infiltrate a sorcerer from Ahriman's cabal and use Electrodisplacement to swap with Kharn and buddies to give them a turn 1 charge chance

Oh, that is just nasty. I love it.

And so unfluffy it makes my head hurt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:
Huron had a rule that his force could take weapons, equipment and support options from Codex: Ultramarines and use Imperial wargear & Vehicle cards at no extra cost. Also Astral Claws terminators were chosen from the Ultramarines codex too

ANY other Chaos force could use imperial equipment or wargear options but had to pay a 50% premium for it (so if you wanted to swap your explodey Mk1 plasma for a reliable newer one, you could)

THAT'S why 2nd edition didn't have "Special snowflake" legion rules, the list was versatile enough not to require one, even in an edition where the Imperials were starting to get their own special snowflake books. Subsequent editions have stripped away options without replacing them with viable alternatives (with the notable exception of 3.5, which remains pretty much the best rules depiction of a "basic" CSM Marine so far)

Add to the fact SM keep getting better yet CSM stay the same
Fun fact thousand sons in 3ed (not 3.5) cast the same as they do now had 2wounds and ignore weapons less then strength 5

Gree wrote:
The Black Templars used to be in Codex: Ultramarines for example.

And technically they are again.

Using Codex Deathwatch as a model, but with more Chaos flavoured options, could pretty much make Chaos Space Marines feel as cool and dangerous as they ought to be. Clearly you can make rules for gnarly veterans with a lot of options. Get on it, GW.