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Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?

Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.

It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

Grarg wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So outside of the whining that Crimson Slaughter are getting some attention, we have anymore leaks of rules?

I can't wait for 10 different terrible ways to use possessed marines.

Too bad that the easiest way to fix them is to make them into beasts and a slight point drop :(

I too am waiting diligently to be disappointed by this Chaos supplement, I'm used to it now.

They should be given the foot speed of Wulfen and a mild price drop. I'm thinking 24 to 25. Wulfen have so many advantages for the 14 points extra that it is ridiculous.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

They kinda are supposed to...

 adamsouza wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

Tyranids are a prime example of how to take an existential threat in the lore and make them a sad joke on the table so there is some precedent.

More seriously by writing the rules to accurately reflect the characters and abilities of the various flavours of Traitor Astartes. Recently turned Renegade chapters shouldn't have access to the same gifts mutations and daemons as those who fought on Terra. A sliding scale of Heretic Designations unlocking some options while blocking others based on the background of the force you are making would be ideal. Far more like the Rites of War from the Heresy books.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

Simple, lack of unity. Too many egos and the inherent nature of chaotic corruption to keep them unified forever, even if they had the best of everything.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

significant lack of numbers and extremely overwhelming odds against them plus tons of anti demon and psycher stuff. On top of that constant infighting amongst themselves. Kinda like Orks but more intelligent.

According to lore Orks are the most populous species in the galaxy and fastest at reproducing and if they would stop infighting could overwhelm the galaxy as well.

gungo wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

significant lack of numbers and extremely overwhelming odds against them plus tons of anti demon and psycher stuff.

Have you met Kharne?

Neronoxx wrote:

gungo wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

significant lack of numbers and extremely overwhelming odds against them plus tons of anti demon and psycher stuff.

Have you met Kharne?

1 guy and abaddons plan is to have him be the initial distracting onslaught. So chaos knows he is worth a chapter of other chaos marines alone since he is thier main plan for this campaign. However it's still one guy versus all of the imperium, eldar races, necrons/tyranid/Orks to conquer. Tau aren't really near any warp gates.

This is just another example of the disjointed, contradictory, and frankly quite bizarre approach the GW studio has taken to CSM. They seem to like the idea of the Long War but not the idea of the Chaos legions who started it. It's as if they didn't want CSM upstaging their golden boy SMs and therefore decided Heresy-era veterans were just too badass of a concept for CSM to be based on. But on the other hand that's what makes them distinct and that's what the models are based on so let's keep all that stuff too. The result is recently turned renegades running around with pre-Heresy equipment talking about their 10,000 year struggle. Just daft.

Well, you can't expect zealots to be rational.

Meanwhile, there're really a few different forces kinda squooshed together under the "Chaos" banner. Chaos Marines and Daemons are the obvious ones, but Chaos Cult and Traitor Guard are in the mix, Marine-Daemon mixes (Such as an all-Khorne force), and 'Renegade Marines' who have modern tech but no daemonic gifts.

The trick is getting all of that together into a single body, which is ... hard. Scattering it around a bit with allies can be a thing, but putting most tool sin the pile, then using formations to separate those piles, could be handy.

The question then becomes, "What goes in each pile?"

Roknar wrote:
Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?

Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.

Sort of, kind of. The previous 13th Crusades were the original 13th Crusade and the New 52 13th Crusade (which was the reboot because of some heretics causing Flashpoint), and now we're getting we're getting the Rebirth 13th Crusade. The Laughing God plays the part of Doctor Manhattan in this scenario.

The answer is to just refocus CSM on the original traitor legions. Ultimately the entire story of the CSM is the story of the Horus Heresy and the traitor legions. That's what makes CSM distinct from SM. It's this bizarre insistence on downplaying the importance of the traitor legions that causes all the issues.

If you want recently-turned renegades, the best approach would be to take the SM list, change the ally matrix, and swap out the formations, chapter tactics and relics for options more suited to renegades. It could be done in a single codex supplement. That would be a Codex: SM supplement, not a Codex: CSM supplement. Unfortunately from a marketing perspective that wouldn't fit in their neat little box since the SM product line is separate from the CSM product line (each identifiable by the little marine helmets with and without horns respectively).

Grarg wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So outside of the whining that Crimson Slaughter are getting some attention, we have anymore leaks of rules?

I can't wait for 10 different terrible ways to use possessed marines.

Too bad that the easiest way to fix them is to make them into beasts and a slight point drop :(

I too am waiting diligently to be disappointed by this Chaos supplement, I'm used to it now.

And make them stop randomly mutating in the middle of the fight. Seriously, the mutation you roll either makes them murder their target or flail wildly. This is why the Crimson Slaughter ones are better, they make them Faster or harder to kill, their killing ability isn't impacted at all, so you always know what they can do.

Roknar wrote:
Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?

Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.

It was never really a retcon to start with, more of a rollback. Chaos won the world wide campaign and 13th black crusade at the closing of the 41st millennium. But until recently GW have focused the background on the time before the crusade began.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?

Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.

It was never really a retcon to start with, more of a rollback. Chaos won the world wide campaign thus and 13th black crusade at the closing of the 41st millennium. But until recently GW have focused the background on the time before the crusade began.

Which we all assumed meant it never happened and was never gonna happen, cuz we have to fill literally every second before the beginning of the 41st millennium, but GW has surprised us.

 doctortom wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?

Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.

Sort of, kind of. The previous 13th Crusades were the original 13th Crusade and the New 52 13th Crusade (which was the reboot because of some heretics causing Flashpoint), and now we're getting we're getting the Rebirth 13th Crusade. The Laughing God plays the part of Doctor Manhattan in this scenario.

lol, that suprisingly accurate XD. I just hope it's not a GW's way of keeping the legions in the background and making csm all about how the crimson slaughter are doing the dirty work for the Black Legion.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Xorphas?

Yeah, that is surely a name to strike...something?

Memories of old saturday morning cartoons, perhaps?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The answer is to just refocus CSM on the original traitor legions. Ultimately the entire story of the CSM is the story of the Horus Heresy and the traitor legions. That's what makes CSM distinct from SM. It's this bizarre insistence on downplaying the importance of the traitor legions that causes all the issues.

If you want recently-turned renegades, the best approach would be to take the SM list, change the ally matrix, and swap out the formations, chapter tactics and relics for options more suited to renegades. It could be done in a single codex supplement. That would be a Codex: SM supplement, not a Codex: CSM supplement. Unfortunately from a marketing perspective that wouldn't fit in their neat little box since the SM product line is separate from the CSM product line (each identifiable by the little marine helmets with and without horns respectively).

I believe that is GW's stance, the Traitor Legions no longer exist as coherent forces anymore. The problem is that haven't bothered to tell the fluff writers. GW needs to get on the same page and then present that to the fan base. And then the fans can accept or reject that as they want to.

shade1313 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Xorphas?

Yeah, that is surely a name to strike...something?

Memories of old saturday morning cartoons, perhaps?

The name definitely makes it sound like it'll be up to G.I. Joe to stop him.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

Easy answer we're chaos. Chaos doesn't overrun the Galaxy because of all the in fighting. The gods hate/fear each other more than they do the Imperium, and their followers likewise hate and can't stand each other. Even among the followers of the same god you have mortals hating/betraying daemons, and daemons hating/betraying mortals.The "Great Game" ultimately isn't about beating the Imperium.

 Grimmor wrote:
Which we all assumed meant it never happened and was never gonna happen, cuz we have to fill literally every second before the beginning of the 41st millennium, but GW has surprised us.

TBH I'm mostly ok with expanding the "history" of the setting. Ten thousand years is heck of a long time, and I often feel that many in the hobby(and GW themselves sometimes) could do with a reminder that the Heresy wasn't last week for the forces of the 41st millennium. That said the 13th crusade does make for a great season cliff hanger with Chaos forces spilling out of the Cadian gate into the wider Imperium.

Ah, how we forget, eh?
The original 13th crusade did, indeed, have chaos win the ground war by a decent enough margin… but the campaign also included space battles. Space battles where the chaos fleet got absolutely curbstomped. Like 90% Imperial/Eldar win rate.

The great Undoing happened because at the end of the campaign Chaos "won" but was in such an abysmal strategic situation that an eventual Imperial victory was inevitable; it would just take a decade or two to figure out which planets were salvageable and Exterminatus the rest, ready for resettlement.
And basically no-one liked that ending much, not least because it's the exact same ending as every other Black Crusade: Abbadabbadoo steps out with his buddies, causes a bunch of damage, pays no attention to the wider realm, and eventually gets rolled over by the Imperial Machine.
So it was unhappened to save face. Abbaddon's face.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.

If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?

There aren't a lot of them. Also, they are SUPPOSED TO run over everybody else!

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I believe that is GW's stance, the Traitor Legions no longer exist as coherent forces anymore. The problem is that haven't bothered to tell the fluff writers. GW needs to get on the same page and then present that to the fan base. And then the fans can accept or reject that as they want to.

They haven't bothered to tell the sculptors either apparently. Terminators have reaper autocannons, Raptors have mk2 jump packs (and that isn't even a rules-related thing), Chosen have mk4 armor, etc.

If the traitor legions don't exist as coherent forces the focus should be on the warbands that splintered off of them. That's what all the models depict.

Lol games workshop didn't like the result. People were sacked or left as they did not like what GW decided to do and by that I mean they totally ignored the result. The campaign was to be the spark of a new look 40k but when it didn't go the way gw wanted it they just bottled it. Funnily enough since that campaign gw have made a total mess of chaos in every codex. Maybe they now see how much the community wants chaos to be decent and this is how they fix it. Not likely but one can hope

Easy way to justify not so much attention on the Legions- make them stronger, ironically. Horus is dead, and while Abbadon is Champion of Chaos, instead of the other legions being under his control in a Black Crusade, they only grudgingly cooperate, spending most their time doing their own things and answering to their own primarchs and leaders. Abbadon therefore mainly focuses on the Black Legion, which included members of other legions that joined him, and renegades who are weaker and need patronage. So things like the Thousand Sons are still around and strong, but instead of joining Abbadon's Black Crusade, Magnus figures the distraction would make for a good time to hit Fenris.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Ah, how we forget, eh?
The original 13th crusade did, indeed, have chaos win the ground war by a decent enough margin… but the campaign also included space battles. Space battles where the chaos fleet got absolutely curbstomped. Like 90% Imperial/Eldar win rate.

I believe what actually happened is that a huge number of Imperial players never bothered to click on any of the website links that led from the sector level to the system level down to the planet level. And so they ended up posting huge numbers of (largely SM) victories to the Cadian sector rather than to the actual planets in the Cadian system. The campaign system had this mechanic whereby hitting easy to conquer planets would drop Imperial control on neighboring planets. The Chaos/badguy players deciphered how the system worked, got organized, came up with a strategy, and posted all their wins to the planets that would have the greatest impact.

The end result was that sector and system level control was overwhelmingly Imperial since at the sector/system level only numbers of wins mattered and there were many more Imperial players posting than Chaos. But at the planetary level the Chaos players posted their wins where they'd make the most difference and so were able to win the campaign while posting less wins overall.

The organizers in the studio interpreted this result to mean that the Imperium won in space while Chaos won on the ground and that's what they ended up putting into the writeup at the end. This had nothing to do with Battlefleet Gothic results though. It was entirely due to Imperial players failure to get organized and/or successfully navigate the website.

shade1313 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Xorphas?

Yeah, that is surely a name to strike...something?

Memories of old saturday morning cartoons, perhaps?

Sounds more like some new prescription drug to me. "Do not take Xorphas if you are taking antidepressants. If you experience painful rectal bleeding that lasts longer than six hours, while taking Xorphas, discontinue taking Xorphas and contact your doctor as it may indicate a severe medical condition..."

Valete,

JohnS