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SSSSHHHHHH!!!!

Don't mention AoS in this thread. It makes a lot of sphincters really tight...

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
SSSSHHHHHH!!!!

Don't mention AoS in this thread. It makes a lot of sphincters really tight...

Best thing that could happen, IMO.

 thejughead wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Hard Reset in order for 40k.

I welcome our AoS overlords.

Yep.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
SSSSHHHHHH!!!!

Don't mention AoS in this thread. It makes a lot of sphincters really tight...

That's because there's a large majority (it would seem) who would object strongly to the whole universe being utterly destroyed and all the old fluff abandoned.

I suspect if, rather than phrasing it as "AOSify 40K" you simply said "remove a lot of rules bloat from 40K and streamline the whole thing" you'd receive a very different reaction.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I don't even see the point of doing a new Kharn datasheet, if its not to modify it in any form...

Since you still need the CSM codex for the rest of the units and rules...

To show off the new model in the picture.

GW is getting better with models and releases, and (mostly) on pricing. But they need to work on the rules still. No update to Kharn is as bad as merely tacking on the new stats to fliers in DFtS and not trying to fix the problem planes.

Direction seems to be changing for the better, but still, supertankers are slow to move.

People kee saying that Kharn needs to be better. No, he doesnt. He is already fantastic.
What needs to be better is the Chaos Space Marine melee delivery system. Fix that, you 'fix' Kharn.

i dunno, i wouldn't mind something to help keep a T4 character alive past that 4++, considering he's supposed to be notoriously difficult to kill, and IH chapter master random has a 2+/3++ (possibly rerollable), jink, T5, EW, and a possible 2+ FNP.

but, yes, for the love of all that is evil, grav-proof delivery system is needed.

or, just get rid of grav. i'm cool with that too.

That Chapter Master costs 265+ points though. What were you expecting? Kharn is 100 less points...

Wrong. An IH captain with a Chain of Gorgon, Cataphractii Terminator armor (for the rerollable invul), a chainfist and a combimelta is only 20 points more than Kharn.

LOL you mean the build that nobody uses? Okay.

You're always buying a bike and because of that a Thunder Hammer. The mobility and T5 is more valuable to people you do realize? Anyone can realistically kit out a Captain similar to the price of Kharn, but nobody does.

I use it all the time. He's a complete beat-stick in combat because he takes a whupping and then counters with a haymaker. Adding him to a unit of cataphractii terminators makes him even more beat-stick. He can even deep strike, so that's better than kharn's delivery system, no?

Basically a big redo of the rules or a big change in thinking on what units types are is the only way to fix 40k now.

AoS rules change maybe IDK....but the 40k rules/codex are horrible right now, I hear it from everyone I know and its my opinion as well. Its why so many people moved to the more playable/balanced 30k.

The tons of vehicles counting as monstrous creatures with high T and lots of wounds BS they did...plus super friends has killed off almost any interest many have in 40k.

in an AoS type system they could make marines/normal troops usable again---as right now they are nothing but pieces to be shot off the board or be obj sec and sit and not die as long as possible...so basically worthless short of the marines horde of bodies type armies for scoring points.

In AoS type system a marines would just have a flat wound rating no matter how big the baddy/T vehicles/monstrous creature they were attacking and be somewhat usable again.

Any reboot would/should hopefully be better than the mess the current writers have made of the system. They need to bring in a new game rules program manager to oversee a system that makes sense and at least has some balance. im fine with some units being cool/cooler than others but right now balance is a wasted mess.

But if you do mathhammer, kharn is better. If you pit them against eachother, kharn wins (ap2, almost double attacks, almost all will hit, most will wound eBen agains t5). Comparing him to a space marine captain is also a bit unrealistic. Chaos doesn't have many of the options or point cost reductions that the space Maries have had since they have had two codex books and several supplements in the time of one chaos book. This entire argument has become apples vs oranges.

He can be used very effectively with other options (forgeworld drop pods, etc). In reality, he is an amazing character with two downsides: only 5++ and no eternal warrior (when he is reincarnated in the fluff?). Those are the only problems I've seen or ran into when using him.

He works well in a chaos drop pod from fw, a land raider, rhino,n or in a large mob of marines or cultists. He has turned the tired of games in the past for sure.

As for the apples vs oranges argument, cataphract only gives you a reroll on a 1, you still fail about 36% of the time, and everyone knows terminator armor is easy to crack these days. T5 is also fairly easy to beat with heavy weapons, mcs, fleshbane, and a plethora of ap2 and d weapons out there. No character is invincible and striking at I1 is horrible unless you are going up against a normal ap3 melee character with average strength. Those are good characters, but once in melee kharn and many other characters (abaddon, calgar, ragnar, logan) are far better.

Roknar wrote:
There was an interesting comment on facebook about the heldrake formation.
How exactly are we supposed to benefit from vector striking pinned units. Units falling back will be rare but possible. Units that have gone to ground is all but impossible. Only the terminator annihilation force even has a chance to make that happen. WEll technically overwatching could cause that to happen but who in their right mind would go to ground from overwatch? But even they can't cause pinning. So how the hell are you supposed to pin a unit before the psychic phase. Both GtG and pinning have already worn off by the time the movement phase of your next turn comes up and we can't exactly shoot in the opponents turn.
Is it possible to pin a unit during overwatch? Checked that and no that's not possible.

I'm glad you brought this up. I was thinking about it last night how the Heldrakes would never be able to get the d6 from vector striking a pinning unit since they get pinned in the shooting phase and the Heldrake vector strikes in the movement phase. Go to Ground will also happen in the shooting phase and a Falling back unit will most likely recover or go off the table edge by the time the Heldrakes move phase comes back up.

At first it seemed like a cool ability, but in reality it can almost never occur because of the core rules of the game. Ha.

Overall I'm not all doom and gloom about this supplement. I think it deserves a chance and possibly can be a successful mid to upper mid tier codex. Comparing this to any of the broken formations or combinations is unrealistic and unproductive.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
SSSSHHHHHH!!!!

Don't mention AoS in this thread. It makes a lot of sphincters really tight...

That's because there's a large majority (it would seem) who would object strongly to the whole universe being utterly destroyed and all the old fluff abandoned.

I suspect if, rather than phrasing it as "AOSify 40K" you simply said "remove a lot of rules bloat from 40K and streamline the whole thing" you'd receive a very different reaction.

Fluff wise, no, rules wise yes.

Could you imagine if Bolters always wounded on 4+ and Heavy Bolters wounded on 3+? Characters that buff units, but cannot be attached. Vehicles with a save roll. Thats what I want.

No one wants 40k to be sigmared story setting wise. 40k lore is so much better than the gak that was fantasy (no offence wfb fans) but the 40k rules are a complete mess and embarrassing frankly. The 40K rules need a total, complete overhaul and if they do it like they did with AoS and generals handbook and they updated everything like they done 40k would likely be THE GAME to play. That's not a bad thing, its a good thing. Update all the forces then have general books, imperial, chaos and xenos then have split off factions.

As for on topic this is merely book 1 of black crusade. Hopefully the next chaos installment will be a bit meatier

^This

+1! Have an exalt.

The topic here is "GW News & Rumours [40K]: 30k Ahriman, 40k Kharn, Void Shield gen & CSM Black Crusade supplement" - please keep the AoS stuff in the AoS thread(s).

Thanks!

Roknar wrote:
There was an interesting comment on facebook about the heldrake formation.
How exactly are we supposed to benefit from vector striking pinned units. Units falling back will be rare but possible. Units that have gone to ground is all but impossible. Only the terminator annihilation force even has a chance to make that happen. WEll technically overwatching could cause that to happen but who in their right mind would go to ground from overwatch? But even they can't cause pinning. So how the hell are you supposed to pin a unit before the psychic phase. Both GtG and pinning have already worn off by the time the movement phase of your next turn comes up and we can't exactly shoot in the opponents turn.
Is it possible to pin a unit during overwatch? Checked that and no that's not possible.

How did this ever get past playtesting?

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I don't even see the point of doing a new Kharn datasheet, if its not to modify it in any form...

Since you still need the CSM codex for the rest of the units and rules...

To show off the new model in the picture.

GW is getting better with models and releases, and (mostly) on pricing. But they need to work on the rules still. No update to Kharn is as bad as merely tacking on the new stats to fliers in DFtS and not trying to fix the problem planes.

Direction seems to be changing for the better, but still, supertankers are slow to move.

People kee saying that Kharn needs to be better. No, he doesnt. He is already fantastic.
What needs to be better is the Chaos Space Marine melee delivery system. Fix that, you 'fix' Kharn.

i dunno, i wouldn't mind something to help keep a T4 character alive past that 4++, considering he's supposed to be notoriously difficult to kill, and IH chapter master random has a 2+/3++ (possibly rerollable), jink, T5, EW, and a possible 2+ FNP.

but, yes, for the love of all that is evil, grav-proof delivery system is needed.

or, just get rid of grav. i'm cool with that too.

That Chapter Master costs 265+ points though. What were you expecting? Kharn is 100 less points...

Wrong. An IH captain with a Chain of Gorgon, Cataphractii Terminator armor (for the rerollable invul), a chainfist and a combimelta is only 20 points more than Kharn.

LOL you mean the build that nobody uses? Okay.

You're always buying a bike and because of that a Thunder Hammer. The mobility and T5 is more valuable to people you do realize? Anyone can realistically kit out a Captain similar to the price of Kharn, but nobody does.

I use it all the time. He's a complete beat-stick in combat because he takes a whupping and then counters with a haymaker. Adding him to a unit of cataphractii terminators makes him even more beat-stick. He can even deep strike, so that's better than kharn's delivery system, no?

Now the fact you're saying that adding him to a Terminator unit adds to his beatstickness makes me question whether or not to take you seriously. Terminators are garbage, regular or Craphactii.

Not to say Kharn has a better delivery system. You have to use the new formation or use an Assault Claw or sling him up with Hounds. The latter isn't even hard with some practice (I've been having to do similar things with Wraithstar), so I'd advocate for a combination of the former and the latter. Assault Claws are pretty darned expensive so I overall advise against it unless you got guaranteed Invisibility from Belakor. That's probably a good sized game.

Cant believe I have survived without internet for this long, just got back online, so many things to catch up on. My WD arrived early in the week and since I wasnt able to see kill team release, seeing it first time in the WD brought back a little nostalgia of being a kid in the hobby.

Overall loved the new WD, sooooo happy its back to monthly. I'm still going back to read it now and again.

So ready for the next Black Crusade. The Templars will have a field day.

Well if the powers are indeed the same we have at least two psychic powers to enable first turn assault. I haven't seen the Angels of death powers in action so I dunno how well that'S working out for marines, but it sounds like the best way to get our units into assault right now.

 alanmckenzie wrote:

Natfka says....

Trying to discover more about this week's releases, we are looking at a lot of Blood Angels on the pre-order list. A new Blood Angels supplement called the Angels Blade tops the list. Here is the latest.


via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
Black Crusade: Angels Blade (Blood Angel Supplement)
Blood Angels: Death Company Strike Froce
Blood Angles: Archangels Orbital Intervention Force
Blood Angles: Chapter Ancients
Blood Angel Assault Squad
Blood Angel Stern Guard Veteran Squad
Blood Angel Company Command
The Beast Arises 10: Last Son of Dorn (Book)
The Red Path (Book)

well i just through out my command squad!!! i dont like the old bases

Blood Angels!

Two weeks ago I bought and built a full Sternguard squad for my successors...

Interested to know what the chapter ancients could be.

Everyone is saying that the Chapter Ancients are just Dreadnoughts.

Sounds about right. Change the name, raise the price.

Although I'll believe this more when someone more reliable speaks on that list.

Roknar wrote:
Well if the powers are indeed the same we have at least two psychic powers to enable first turn assault. I haven't seen the Angels of death powers in action so I dunno how well that'S working out for marines, but it sounds like the best way to get our units into assault right now.

Infiltrate a unit of TS, move up in the Rhino, cast the power on the Rhino, swap the sorcerer and his melee bodyguards, declare charge?

Why would you use Rubrics though? Switch that up with anything else and you're golden.

Wouldn't the best be to take a daemon prince? Fly him up and switch. Ideally cast a nova or two before switching.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Roknar wrote:
There was an interesting comment on facebook about the heldrake formation.
How exactly are we supposed to benefit from vector striking pinned units. Units falling back will be rare but possible. Units that have gone to ground is all but impossible. Only the terminator annihilation force even has a chance to make that happen. WEll technically overwatching could cause that to happen but who in their right mind would go to ground from overwatch? But even they can't cause pinning. So how the hell are you supposed to pin a unit before the psychic phase. Both GtG and pinning have already worn off by the time the movement phase of your next turn comes up and we can't exactly shoot in the opponents turn.
Is it possible to pin a unit during overwatch? Checked that and no that's not possible.

I'm glad you brought this up. I was thinking about it last night how the Heldrakes would never be able to get the d6 from vector striking a pinning unit since they get pinned in the shooting phase and the Heldrake vector strikes in the movement phase. Go to Ground will also happen in the shooting phase and a Falling back unit will most likely recover or go off the table edge by the time the Heldrakes move phase comes back up.

At first it seemed like a cool ability, but in reality it can almost never occur because of the core rules of the game. Ha.

Overall I'm not all doom and gloom about this supplement. I think it deserves a chance and possibly can be a successful mid to upper mid tier codex. Comparing this to any of the broken formations or combinations is unrealistic and unproductive.

Obviously they expect us to tank shock them.....obviously...

It be nice if we got catapractii, it would give Tzeentch a viable army since Tzeentch catapractii would be awesome and you could do a full cataphractii terminator army with the formation.

Roknar wrote:
There was an interesting comment on facebook about the heldrake formation.
How exactly are we supposed to benefit from vector striking pinned units. Units falling back will be rare but possible. Units that have gone to ground is all but impossible. Only the terminator annihilation force even has a chance to make that happen. WEll technically overwatching could cause that to happen but who in their right mind would go to ground from overwatch? But even they can't cause pinning. So how the hell are you supposed to pin a unit before the psychic phase. Both GtG and pinning have already worn off by the time the movement phase of your next turn comes up and we can't exactly shoot in the opponents turn.
Is it possible to pin a unit during overwatch? Checked that and no that's not possible.

Only way to use this with pinning is pregame via the Warlord Trait everyone rerolls so they can get infiltrate or cover in ruins.

Wouldn't Chaos only have access to Cataphractii technically?

Or will that derail things further...

Apart from forgetting that tank shocks exists, that still doesn't allow you to pin. Although it might allow for the odd silly list involving a lot of destroyer blades lol. Using Blood of Mackan and Scourge of the Greenskins for good measure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 winterman wrote:

Roknar wrote:
There was an interesting comment on facebook about the heldrake formation.
How exactly are we supposed to benefit from vector striking pinned units. Units falling back will be rare but possible. Units that have gone to ground is all but impossible. Only the terminator annihilation force even has a chance to make that happen. WEll technically overwatching could cause that to happen but who in their right mind would go to ground from overwatch? But even they can't cause pinning. So how the hell are you supposed to pin a unit before the psychic phase. Both GtG and pinning have already worn off by the time the movement phase of your next turn comes up and we can't exactly shoot in the opponents turn.
Is it possible to pin a unit during overwatch? Checked that and no that's not possible.

Only way to use this with pinning is pregame via the Warlord Trait everyone rerolls so they can get infiltrate or cover in ruins.

Not even then. That forces pinning on the first turn only and that would require a landing pad to even have a drake, which then wouldn't be allowed to zoom iirc.

Roknar wrote:
Well if the powers are indeed the same we have at least two psychic powers to enable first turn assault. I haven't seen the Angels of death powers in action so I dunno how well that'S working out for marines, but it sounds like the best way to get our units into assault right now.

Actually though.....that would literally make me complete my CSM army immediately. Need a delivery system? Here have a heretic version of the SM "teleport a unit across the board and assault"

Would make a ton of sense that CSM have very similar but corrupted powers.

Further, it would solve a ton of problems that CSM have....just let the cabal roll on these new powers and call it a day. Cabal, CSM CAD, plus favorite formation or a Daemons CAD/allied detachment. Boom competitive army (if the psychic powers are good).

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Once you compare these to what SM get you realize these aren't really "good" - they're just "good... for Chaos".

The secret is to stop comparing it to what Adeptus Astartes gets, and you'll be a lot happier about it.

Did this supplement take Heretic Astartes to Tier 1 ? No.
Did this supplement take Heretic Astartes out of the bottom Tier ? Yes.