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I'm seriously considering a third knight and running a household detachment plus BA at 2K pts. Obj sec on IKs is pretty sweet.

There not bad.

And have a good array of options.
Plus they're cool models to paint.

If you buy tthe new kits, you get tons of weaponry to magentize for your others

pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Problem is an entire army of AV13/12 super heavy walkers makes every S6>, poison, sniper, fleshbane, etc weapon useless.

That stuff was made useless by cover and Sv3+ and AV9+, not IKs. If you are taking them for anything but fluffy comp points, you are a bad player and should feel bad.

What a horrible mindset that is.

Found the Fluff bunny!

BTW, if you have a problem with GW's reality, don't play their game.

There's nothing wrong with GW in that regard. There's a lot wrong with you.

If you can't see an obvious joke, and are making things personal, I think you need to step off before I slap you with a R1 report...

I'm thinking two Wardens and a Paladin.

Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Problem is an entire army of AV13/12 super heavy walkers makes every S6>, poison, sniper, fleshbane, etc weapon useless.

That stuff was made useless by cover and Sv3+ and AV9+, not IKs. If you are taking them for anything but fluffy comp points, you are a bad player and should feel bad.

What a horrible mindset that is.

Found the Fluff bunny!

BTW, if you have a problem with GW's reality, don't play their game.

There's nothing wrong with GW in that regard. There's a lot wrong with you.

If you can't see an obvious joke, and are making things personal, I think you need to step off before I slap you with a R1 report...

I'm thinking that's not an obvious joke.

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

That's what paper is for.

I'm not advocating you play casual games against Rock with your Scissors.

I just think TAC lists should have the tools needed for the job, and if they don't, then they are not really TAC lists.


Personally, most of my lists are devoid of dedicated Anti Air and Psykers, but heavy on Anti Armor. If I lose to a list with lots of Flyers or Psykers I don't consider my opponent "douchey" for bringing them.

The problem is that most armies cant build a TAC list capablr of dealing with a full Knight army and still otherwise remaining TAC.

Especially if they're also trying to fit within the confines of faction background.

Even if you do,t use all 3 at once. Fully magnetized it gives you lots of options, if older kits. More weapons.

Plus you can have fun painting up a knight and maybe converting.

Go with what makes you happy.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

That's what paper is for.

I'm not advocating you play casual games against Rock with your Scissors.

I just think TAC lists should have the tools needed for the job, and if they don't, then they are not really TAC lists.


Personally, most of my lists are devoid of dedicated Anti Air and Psykers, but heavy on Anti Armor. If I lose to a list with lots of Flyers or Psykers I don't consider my opponent "douchey" for bringing them.

Well for one you can still snap fire at flyers (making a flyer jink is basically half the battle) or shoot/chop psykic enhanced units (invisible 2+ rerollble save gak stars are entirely a different problem though). Its not as optimal but its still does something. Bolters for example being used against a Riptide is unlikely to harm it but there is a definite possibility to knock a wound off of it with enough dice or a bit of luck. So while ineffective they still can do something instead of stand around just being speed bumps. A billion Heavy Bolters though will do absolutely zero damage to an IK so it literally is useless against it. The issue isn't trying to make countered unit work but that only having IKs in an army makes certain things have 0% efficiency and there are zero valid targets for them to be used against for the entire game.

This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

 Vankraken wrote:
This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

That's a very glass half empty point of view of the situation.

Embrace the challenge.

 Vankraken wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

So...basically any army that includes a SHW or GC. Especially if they include a GC, since they can largely ignore most weaponry, between absurdly high Toughness, Armor/Invulnerable Saves, and baseline FNP. If SHW had the ability to mitigate damage the way a GC can, the hatred toward them would be more deserved.

Here's the thing, people talk about their TAC armies not being able to deal with a SHW like a Knight. But honestly, how can one say they are running a TAC list without including anti-armor?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

So...basically any army that includes a SHW or GC. Especially if they include a GC, since they can largely ignore most weaponry, between absurdly high Toughness, Armor/Invulnerable Saves, and baseline FNP. If SHW had the ability to mitigate damage the way a GC can, the hatred toward them would be more deserved.

Here's the thing, people talk about their TAC armies not being able to deal with a SHW like a Knight. But honestly, how can one say they are running a TAC list without including anti-armor?

agreed, if you can't handle a Knight you can't handle a lemen russ or a land raider either. what if I took a space marine armored task force?

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

So...basically any army that includes a SHW or GC. Especially if they include a GC, since they can largely ignore most weaponry, between absurdly high Toughness, Armor/Invulnerable Saves, and baseline FNP. If SHW had the ability to mitigate damage the way a GC can, the hatred toward them would be more deserved.

Here's the thing, people talk about their TAC armies not being able to deal with a SHW like a Knight. But honestly, how can one say they are running a TAC list without including anti-armor?

agreed, if you can't handle a Knight you can't handle a lemen russ or a land raider either. what if I took a space marine armored task force?

Well, then you are just a WAAC D-bag, obviously!

People are missing the key point I'm trying to make. An army of ONLY AV13/12 super heavy walkers is unfun to play against when your using a TAC style list in a casual game because a good chunk of your army (unless your one of those lucky codexes that have good at everything type weapons) is unable to do anything against them. A single GMC or SHW isn't the problem.

Again to make it extra clear this is talking about an army of ONLY IMPERIAL KNIGHTS.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

So...basically any army that includes a SHW or GC. Especially if they include a GC, since they can largely ignore most weaponry, between absurdly high Toughness, Armor/Invulnerable Saves, and baseline FNP. If SHW had the ability to mitigate damage the way a GC can, the hatred toward them would be more deserved.

Here's the thing, people talk about their TAC armies not being able to deal with a SHW like a Knight. But honestly, how can one say they are running a TAC list without including anti-armor?

...A TAC list can handle A Knight just fine, it's when the all-Knights army shows up the problems start.

If your army cant handle one IK then its too weak. You dont even need meltaguns or melta bombs.

Even nemesis dread knights, MCs, and walkers can hit the front av13 with str 10 ap2, pen on a 4+ and make a IK lose d3 hp on an explode result.

IKs are super weak. The only reason why i use one is because I spent the money and try to lie to myself I made a good investment decision when I really just threw away hundreds of dollars.

If you are a player and you b**** about IKs, then you need to git gud son.

If the enemy has multiple IKs, he just did you a huge favor. You can grav cannon hp off. You can meltabomb at i1 at the same time stomp goes off b4 his piddly 4 attacks. cheaper walkers with dccw power fists str at initiative with str10 ap2.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
If you are a player and you b**** about IKs, then you need to git gud son.

Uh, oh. Telling people that they need to L2P tends to make them very unhappy... Even if it's true. I foresee

Really, this is just more reason why 40k is a casual game, not a competitive one.

I think both the content of the post, the username and the apparent disregard for the many factions that don't have access to grav (or even melta bombs) will give most people all the clues they need to handle that post.

Whoa, no L2P necessary here!

My big thing is, a single Imperial Knight is not a big deal. A good TAC list can still handle one. And in most cases, at a lower percentage of points than the Knight takes up. And honestly, dedicated Anti-AV is still going to be able to take down other stuff too. Meltaguns still pop other stuff. Lascannons still pop other stuff. But you can blow up an Imperial Knight in a single round of shooting with those things, however unlikely. GCs don't suffer the same fate, and I really take issue with Knights getting lumped into the same category as GCs. The only way a single shot weapon can strip more wounds off a GC is if it has Remove From Play, and we all know how common that is (like Unicorn common...).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

So...basically any army that includes a SHW or GC. Especially if they include a GC, since they can largely ignore most weaponry, between absurdly high Toughness, Armor/Invulnerable Saves, and baseline FNP. If SHW had the ability to mitigate damage the way a GC can, the hatred toward them would be more deserved.

Here's the thing, people talk about their TAC armies not being able to deal with a SHW like a Knight. But honestly, how can one say they are running a TAC list without including anti-armor?

...A TAC list can handle A Knight just fine, it's when the all-Knights army shows up the problems start.

sure but what about IG armor lists, or space marine armored might lists? knights are far from the only army capable of deploying a list comprising of pure armor.

BrianDavion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...A TAC list can handle A Knight just fine, it's when the all-Knights army shows up the problems start.

sure but what about IG armor lists, or space marine armored might lists?

Gladius is indeed inherently unfair, but...

IG Armor lists? Ha! You should be so lucky to face them as such! They are grossly overpriced and underdelivering compared to Knights that are harder to kill, don't suck in HtH, and give up nothing in firepower. And if they're meching the infantry, even better!

Vaktathi can cover the IG Armor side in more detail, but I doubt he disagrees with my summary.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...A TAC list can handle A Knight just fine, it's when the all-Knights army shows up the problems start.

sure but what about IG armor lists, or space marine armored might lists?

Gladius is indeed inherently unfair, but...

I said armored might lists, not Gladius. the armored might list is a space marine armor decurion.

I could quite literally field an army of nothing but space marine tanks if I wanted to.

Also the Gladius isn;t unfair. the space marine BATTLE COMPANY varient of it may be, but the gladius itself isn't terriably strong. I know it's easy to miss with all the people complaining but the gladius doesn't give free transports unless you take 2 core demi-companies

Just remember that we can complain about Imperial Knight lists making half of your weapons in a TAC useless, but swarms do the same thing. Yeah you're hitting those Gaunts and Boyz with Lascannons and Melta Guns. And? That's just false hope rather than just knowing you can't hurt an Imperial Knight with Bolters or Flamers.

"Your guns being physically incapable of hurting my units is just as bad as I have it because my guns are overkill" is a rather...unique argument...

 Vaktathi wrote:
"Your guns being physically incapable of hurting my units is just as bad as I have it because my guns are overkill" is a rather...unique argument...

Anti-Infantry is wasted against an Imperial Knight Army in the same way Anti-Tank is wasted against horde armies. Look at the cost of imperial heavy weapons, most of which are tailored against tanks. Not only are they expensive but make the unit super inefficient at killing horde armies.

It's basically the same thing outside of removing two Gaunts a turn with Lascannons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
"Your guns being physically incapable of hurting my units is just as bad as I have it because my guns are overkill" is a rather...unique argument...

Anti-Infantry is wasted against an Imperial Knight Army in the same way Anti-Tank is wasted against horde armies. Look at the cost of imperial heavy weapons, most of which are tailored against tanks. Not only are they expensive but make the unit super inefficient at killing horde armies.

It's basically the same thing outside of removing two Gaunts a turn with Lascannons.

Also, keep in mind that the two Gaunts dying has a negligible effect on the strength of the horde at large.

Indeed. Although taking the example of a gaunt swarm, there is (usually) either a multi-wound squad (warriors) or a mid-level monstrous creature (tervigon) at the heart of it, so there is something for your antitank guns to be doing.

A green tide, or daemonkin cultist wave, however, can be just expendable dudes - and yes, firing antitank guns into that mass is just as much of a waste as firing bolters at an imperial knight. Which, I guess, is why people fixate on the S6 massed-rate-of-fire scatter laser, assault cannon, and the grav-cannon, because they can do both at no real downside (a grav-amped grav-cannon is better at killing guardsmen than a heavy bolter).

I'm seriously considering a third knight and running a household detachment plus BA at 2K pts. Obj sec on IKs is pretty sweet.

Having played with Objective Secured Tervigons, I'd heartily recommend it. Big tough stuff that has to be killed to be got off the objective is reassuringly good.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Imperial Knights have never been consider overpowered, in fact they have been consider appropriately costed since they were introduced. However, a vocal fraction of the player base complain quite a bit about how boring they are to play against, or how you have to tailor to table them in one turn, or how their list just does not include the army options needed to counter armor for some odd reason. Yet every army currently in the game either can counter armor or are intended to ally anyway.

SJ

har har har. Take this as sarcasm if you want, but it actually happened yesterday:
One of the kids at my LGS asked me to teach him how to play 40k, it isn't recent, but actually has been after me for a couple weeks to learn. I brought 4 500 point lists: AM, Tyranids, Tau, and a knight. You might ask, 'How did you get it to 500 points?' well, Crusader, RFBC, the Carapace Missile Launcher, and Mark of the Omnissiah. The last was a mistake; while I dealt ~5 HP of damage to it, he rolled really well on his IWND rolls.
I used my nids, and called it when he stomped my flyrant in CC and rolled a 6 (the only models left on the board were 3 spore mines in a cluster). I should have used my Tau.

Next week, he is interested in playing a slightly larger game at 1k points, and I told him that I would bring all my knights and let him build his own army (out of a Renegade box, magnetized with an additional Avenger and an Acheron) and this time I'm going to bring my tau. Question is, should I bring my stormsurge?

The firat time I played my knight was against a salamander army. First turn a drop pod fell right by its side. A sternguard squad with meltas and combine meltas exited and lit it up. Needless to say, it exploded on the first turn, taking out the sternguard and some of my army.

Knights are like a baneblade, they are good (not great). They are fragile though and will die quite easy these days with meltas, d weapons, chainfists, etc. Hell deathwatch armies could deepstrike a squad of ac terminators behind it (av11); it would be quite easy to rip it up with a s6 shred weapon.

Are they worth it? Not to me for the heavy point sink, but they are cool models and I still own some.