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 Talys wrote:
As has been mentioned, the real strength of IK is not in the unit's points/model efficiency, it's in the ability to easily take as many of them as you want in almost every game setting (friendly, tournament, etc.), whereas its GMC counterparts often have many limits, either set within the game or as house rules. Not many people will play with you (or consider it a fair game) if you want to play an unbound list of a half dozen wraithknights and a revenant or stormsurges and Ta'unar's or whatever, and you certainly wouldn't get them into any competitive environment.

On the other hand, 5, 6, 7 Knights? There might be some moaning, but generally, people will consider the army fair game.

The other issue is just that the playing a half dozen knights is just a whole lot easier and forgiving than commanding an army of 60-100 models. And, you won't miss any models

Unbound is legal play, per the rulebook. If you want to play ALL the WKs & Stormsurges and other Lords of War, GW says you can. Right there in the 40k Rulebook. You may have effectiveness issues from Come the Apocalypse & Unbound vs Battle Brothers & Battleforged, but you can field the models in every game setting that actually follows the 40k Rulebook. Now, if people are applying house rules or event rules, that's different. At that point, THEY ARE NO LONGER PLAYING WARHAMMER 40K as the designers intended or wrote.

Knights are about 400 pts each, so that 5-7 Knights is for a game of 2,000 - 2,800 pts. That's a lot more points than I'd prefer. However, if we're playing such large games, it becomes even more appropriate to take a half-dozen Knights.

And thos 2k-3k games? Smaller model count definitely improves speed of play. As opposed to 3,000 pt hordes on each side.

Tycho wrote:

I've fought 3-5 knights. It's much easier than dual WK. Or Stormsurge with Riptide wing. Once you kill 3 out of 5 knights, they physically can't score enough points to win.

Poison is useless vs GMCs and HTH is almost the same as IKs. D is overkill vs most targets except guess what? MCs and GMCs.

You made it sound like you were talking ONE 'Surge and One Knight. Yeah dude, Riptide wing sucks to play against unless you're prepared for it. No one has argued that. No one has even argued that Knights are the be-all end all. The point most have been making is that 3-5 Knights presents a very unique challenge that becomes extremely "paper/rock/scissors".

I still think AV 12 is sufficiently vulnerable to so many things in the game that they're very manageable at their price point. Now, if they were WK cheap, I'd agree 100%.

I think every list in the game can deal with AV 12, whereas there are half a dozen lists that can't scratch the paint on Riptide wing, even if they list tailor. CSM are still helpless even after the lastest update vs Riptide wing.

I really hope that the new Blood Angels stuff allows for Assault Marine spam. I want to drop in with Meltaguns on either side of a Knight and pop him, and then move on to the next one.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really hope that the new Blood Angels stuff allows for Assault Marine spam. I want to drop in with Meltaguns on either side of a Knight and pop him, and then move on to the next one.

As opposed to landing Drop Pods like normal people?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really hope that the new Blood Angels stuff allows for Assault Marine spam. I want to drop in with Meltaguns on either side of a Knight and pop him, and then move on to the next one.

As opposed to landing Drop Pods like normal people?

It all depends on what changes they are making to the Assault Marine datasheet. Also, the Jump Packs will aid in the AM being more mobile after dealing with the Knight. Footslogging with a Jump Pack is a lot more effective than just plain footslogging.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really hope that the new Blood Angels stuff allows for Assault Marine spam. I want to drop in with Meltaguns on either side of a Knight and pop him, and then move on to the next one.

As opposed to landing Drop Pods like normal people?

It all depends on what changes they are making to the Assault Marine datasheet. Also, the Jump Packs will aid in the AM being more mobile after dealing with the Knight. Footslogging with a Jump Pack is a lot more effective than just plain footslogging.

I doubt they'll make any changes to the datasheet. so far none of the revised books have changed stats.

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really hope that the new Blood Angels stuff allows for Assault Marine spam. I want to drop in with Meltaguns on either side of a Knight and pop him, and then move on to the next one.

As opposed to landing Drop Pods like normal people?

It all depends on what changes they are making to the Assault Marine datasheet. Also, the Jump Packs will aid in the AM being more mobile after dealing with the Knight. Footslogging with a Jump Pack is a lot more effective than just plain footslogging.

I doubt they'll make any changes to the datasheet. so far none of the revised books have changed stats.

Lady Atia (one of the renowned rumormongers that is close to 100% accurate) has said that the Assault Marine datasheet is being updated (I am guessing with access to stuff like the Eviscerator), so that is as good as gold to me. As long as my BA Assault Marines keep access to Special Weapons and Combi-Weapons, I will be happy.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really hope that the new Blood Angels stuff allows for Assault Marine spam. I want to drop in with Meltaguns on either side of a Knight and pop him, and then move on to the next one.

As opposed to landing Drop Pods like normal people?

It all depends on what changes they are making to the Assault Marine datasheet. Also, the Jump Packs will aid in the AM being more mobile after dealing with the Knight. Footslogging with a Jump Pack is a lot more effective than just plain footslogging.

I doubt they'll make any changes to the datasheet. so far none of the revised books have changed stats.

Lady Atia (one of the renowned rumormongers that is close to 100% accurate) has said that the Assault Marine datasheet is being updated (I am guessing with access to stuff like the Eviscerator), so that is as good as gold to me. As long as my BA Assault Marines keep access to Special Weapons and Combi-Weapons, I will be happy.

yeah my guess is it'll be updated to "new kit status" reflecting the options found in the kit

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Talys wrote:
As has been mentioned, the real strength of IK is not in the unit's points/model efficiency, it's in the ability to easily take as many of them as you want in almost every game setting (friendly, tournament, etc.), whereas its GMC counterparts often have many limits, either set within the game or as house rules. Not many people will play with you (or consider it a fair game) if you want to play an unbound list of a half dozen wraithknights and a revenant or stormsurges and Ta'unar's or whatever, and you certainly wouldn't get them into any competitive environment.

On the other hand, 5, 6, 7 Knights? There might be some moaning, but generally, people will consider the army fair game.

The other issue is just that the playing a half dozen knights is just a whole lot easier and forgiving than commanding an army of 60-100 models. And, you won't miss any models

Unbound is legal play, per the rulebook. If you want to play ALL the WKs & Stormsurges and other Lords of War, GW says you can. Right there in the 40k Rulebook. You may have effectiveness issues from Come the Apocalypse & Unbound vs Battle Brothers & Battleforged, but you can field the models in every game setting that actually follows the 40k Rulebook. Now, if people are applying house rules or event rules, that's different. At that point, THEY ARE NO LONGER PLAYING WARHAMMER 40K as the designers intended or wrote.

Knights are about 400 pts each, so that 5-7 Knights is for a game of 2,000 - 2,800 pts. That's a lot more points than I'd prefer. However, if we're playing such large games, it becomes even more appropriate to take a half-dozen Knights.

And thos 2k-3k games? Smaller model count definitely improves speed of play. As opposed to 3,000 pt hordes on each side.

Not to nitpick, but Knights start at 325 (and those aren't bad), and games of 2000 points aren't really that unusual. But pick a point level: 600, 1000, 1200, 1500, 1850 -- if you fill a big chunk of those points with 325-450 point (or slightly higher) knights, the skill level required to play decently (and therefore, chances to win, if you're less skilled) is much lower than if you play a lot of other armies.

Sure, Unbound is officially part of the rules. But so is having to agree with your opponent on what you're going to play, which essentially comes down to, "You wanna play 1500 points of Wraithknights against my Orks? Thanks but no thanks, dude, ciao." Practically no tournaments allow unbound, and most tournaments like ITC limit GMCs (and therefore WK and SS), but explicitly allow IK armies even though they are GMC. Why? Their player base wants it. If competitors generally wanted to make WK armies a thing, they would be, too. But I'll bet even if the base cost of a WK were 350 points, that wouldn't be the case.

My point isn't really to bitch at Knights being overpowered, but rather, I'm just pointing out that in the realm of armies that are generally acceptable to field, they're a pretty easy and forgiving army to play. Which isn't a bad thing, either.

IKs are SHW, not GMCs. They'd be a lot better if they were GMCs. They allow IK lists because IKs are overcosted or at best, fairly costed. GMCs are all universally undercosted by 20% or more.

I dunno about all of them being undercosted.
The scythed hierodule is probably the weakest of the tyranid GMCs. A little under 550 points gets you something nearly identical in statline to a wraithknight. Minus a couple of points of I, but with a few extra attacks. Armed with a S6 Ap3 hellstorm.

Do you really think it should cost more?
If so, should the wraithknight be double what it is now? I usually see people saying it should be around 400.

Martel often says all normal MCs are underpriced, OP, unfair units that need to be nerfed to be less impressive than a Space Marine Chapter Master. These over-exaggerations are normal with him.

carldooley wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I find Knights completely terryfining and bought one, solely to counter my opponent's IK. Theire firepower is immense, they have split fire, a two shot Melta cannon with huge range and a tasty rocket launcher to boot. A lot of HP's and AV 13/12 is a lot in my books, not to mention the shield. Knights are scary man.

huh? they do NOT have split fire - but each weapon can target a different unit. Just remember that one of the weapons has to shoot what you are going to charge. The Melta Cannon has one shot, while the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon has 2 shots.

Yeah, it's even better that way. I was wrong about the Melta, I've meant the Cannon thingie.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I find Knights completely terryfining and bought one, solely to counter my opponent's IK. Theire firepower is immense, they have split fire, a two shot Melta cannon with huge range and a tasty rocket launcher to boot. A lot of HP's and AV 13/12 is a lot in my books, not to mention the shield. Knights are scary man.

The melta cannon has only one shot. That might contribute to your perception of the knight as terrifying.

Sorry, my bad. I was thinking about the cannon. Anyway, even with a single shot Melta this thing is still badass.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Sorry, my bad. I was thinking about the cannon. Anyway, even with a single shot Melta this thing is still badass.

Actually, the melta gun is the worst weapon option for the Knights. It isn't nearly as scary as it sounds.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Sorry, my bad. I was thinking about the cannon. Anyway, even with a single shot Melta this thing is still badass.

Actually, the melta gun is the worst weapon option for the Knights. It isn't nearly as scary as it sounds.

I will second this. The cannon, on the other hand, is utterly terrifying to Infantry on foot.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Martel often says all normal MCs are underpriced, OP, unfair units that need to be nerfed to be less impressive than a Space Marine Chapter Master. These over-exaggerations are normal with him.

I"m 100% correct about GMCs. They get way too many rules for free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arson Fire wrote:
I dunno about all of them being undercosted.
The scythed hierodule is probably the weakest of the tyranid GMCs. A little under 550 points gets you something nearly identical in statline to a wraithknight. Minus a couple of points of I, but with a few extra attacks. Armed with a S6 Ap3 hellstorm.

Do you really think it should cost more?
If so, should the wraithknight be double what it is now? I usually see people saying it should be around 400.

I said undercosted by 20% or more depending on the exact GMC. Yes, the Hierodule should probably cost more because of the rules for GMCs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Martel often says all normal MCs are underpriced, OP, unfair units that need to be nerfed to be less impressive than a Space Marine Chapter Master. These over-exaggerations are normal with him.

I"m 100% correct about GMCs. They get way too many rules for free. AP 2 for free and no damage table is pretty hot for regular MCs.

Martel732 wrote:
IKs are SHW, not GMCs. They'd be a lot better if they were GMCs. They allow IK lists because IKs are overcosted or at best, fairly costed. GMCs are all universally undercosted by 20% or more.

Yes, of course you are right; IK's are SHW. I was just abbreviating limits on Superheavies (of any sort) and GMCs as rules for most tournaments, that I'm sure everyone is familiar with.

I don't think IK's are overcosted or undercosted, frankly; I think they're costed just right. In some matchups, the come out ahead, in others, not so much, but it's never a horrible disadvantage, except against models that ARE undercosted. They're not the perfect instruments of war, or an insta-win army, but they have the advantage of being pretty darned easy to play.

Hrm, they absolutely can put many armies at a huge disadvantage and be instawin depending on the matchup. They take "win big lose big" to something of an absurd degree. Nobody has an issue with 1 Knight really. Multiple Knights, especially with powerful formation freebies, are often something many armies cannot deal with without heavily tailoring a list.

You give up obj sec for those bonuses though.

Let me put it another way: If I take my Guard or any of my friends take their Marines for a standard pick up game and the opponent brings a full Knight army, we will instalose unless we have optimised ourselves to kill Knights (and even then Guard will have a nightmarish time).

IG are better off vs knights than many. Most knight weapon systems are pretty inefficient vs guard.

Standard marines can beat mass knights.

Martel732 wrote:
IG are better off vs knights than many. Most knight weapon systems are pretty inefficient vs guard.

You mean weapons like the rapid fire battle cannon, the dualdakkaofdeath gatling, the many stomps per turn, the carapace "I remove that many models" weapons or the tank throwing fists? The ones that shred Guard armies in one to two turns?

Martel732 wrote:
You give up obj sec for those bonuses though.

ObSec is not the end all be all ability it is often portrayed as, it's useful but hardly critical unless you are building the army around it and the opponent doesnt have it and is trying to play for objectives. If an opponent isnt attempting to contest objectives that you hold with units that have the ObSec rule, then it's irrelevant, and those cases are many.

ObSec is great in a Gladius army with two dozen ObSec units. It's often of minimal importance to most Eldar armies, and Necrons do just fine with Decurions and no ObSec.

For Knights, doesn't make a huge difference most of the time.

Most of my wins with ba comes from stealing vps with fast obj sec. But maybe that's just ba.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG are better off vs knights than many. Most knight weapon systems are pretty inefficient vs guard.

You mean weapons like the rapid fire battle cannon, the dualdakkaofdeath gatling, the many stomps per turn, the carapace "I remove that many models" weapons or the tank throwing fists? The ones that shred Guard armies in one to two turns?

None of the knight ranged weapons are really good vs guard on a per point basis.

Martel732 wrote:
Most of my wins with ba comes from stealing vps with fast obj sec. But maybe that's just ba.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG are better off vs knights than many. Most knight weapon systems are pretty inefficient vs guard.

You mean weapons like the rapid fire battle cannon, the dualdakkaofdeath gatling, the many stomps per turn, the carapace "I remove that many models" weapons or the tank throwing fists? The ones that shred Guard armies in one to two turns?

None of the knight ranged weapons are really good vs guard on a per point basis.

Well, actually they are, especially as about 90% of the Guard armoury is utterly useless against Knights.

That's not true either.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Sorry, my bad. I was thinking about the cannon. Anyway, even with a single shot Melta this thing is still badass.

Actually, the melta gun is the worst weapon option for the Knights. It isn't nearly as scary as it sounds.

Definitely. The 12" range makes it all but useless. Always take the Heavy Stubber in the hull.

As for the big gun, it's hard to go wrong with the RFBC. Or the Gatling Cannon.

That said, if you've got a couple RFBCs and/or GCs on the board, then taking a single Thermal Cannon isn't a terrible idea. It's 3 steps up from a Multi-Melta, having 36" range vs 24" range, 5" Blast vs no AOE, and base S9 to top things off! Very solid weapon for the occasional Sv2+ unit that you don't want to engage in HtH.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not true either.

Lascannons, Melta Guns, vanquisher cannons and Missile Launchers. Or, and Autocannons - IF we can flank them.

Martel732 wrote:
IG are better off vs knights than many. Most knight weapon systems are pretty inefficient vs guard.

Standard marines can beat mass knights.

I'd like you to back up that statement. IG are a weak Codex, and what exactly are the IG going to do against an all Knights formation?

Standard Marines get 10 Free ObSec Transports, and can beat just about anybody. They are a top-tier army, and you conveniently ignore that fact.

Guess what? The other top tier armies (Necrons, Tau & Eldar) can also beat Knights. That means nothing for the Guard.

Plasma guns on the side armor. Autocanns are okay vs front armor because you can start pinging from turn one.

Like everything else, knights get more manageable if you leave the russ hulls at home. Because most russes do struggle vs knights.