FFG loses Warhammer license : page 5 statement, ends Feb 28, 2017

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**notprop**

Peregrine wrote:
Grot 6 wrote:
Is there any way for Black Library to rerelease the game, and continue the lines?

No. GW would have to buy the game from FFG, and I wouldn't bet anything on that happening.

That would really depend upon the terms of the licence. It is not unknown for designs and IP to revert back to the licensor upon the conclusion of the term if that is the way the licence was constructed.

Of course as with most of this thread, we just don't know.

**Herzlos**

Zingraff wrote:

I've been a registered user of BoardGameGeek for 11 years, and an unregistered user for nearly 15 years, and their rating system is trustworthy and reliable. Three of the five board games GW has released since 2015, are all getting solid reviews on BGG; Betrayal at Calth gets an average rating of 8.1, based on 87 ratings, Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower gets an average of 7.9, based on 379 ratings, and Deathwatch Overkill gets 7.6 based on 69 ratings.

I'm not sure GW will fit the same pattern though; IIRC most of the GW games had lots of very high ratings before launch, from people who love the minis, so I'm not sure you can determine from the rating that the games themselves are actually any good, since I bet a large proportion of people rating the game have (and will) never actually played it.

**Zywus**

notprop wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Grot 6 wrote:
Is there any way for Black Library to rerelease the game, and continue the lines?

No. GW would have to buy the game from FFG, and I wouldn't bet anything on that happening.

That would really depend upon the terms of the licence. It is not unknown for designs and IP to revert back to the licensor upon the conclusion of the term if that is the way the licence was constructed.

Of course as with most of this thread, we just don't know.

Indeed, there are lot's of ways these license agreements may be constructed.
I'd imagine that lt's actually pretty uncommon for the IP to simply stay with the licensee when the term runs out.

**Monkeysloth**

Zywus wrote:
notprop wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Grot 6 wrote:
Is there any way for Black Library to rerelease the game, and continue the lines?

No. GW would have to buy the game from FFG, and I wouldn't bet anything on that happening.

That would really depend upon the terms of the licence. It is not unknown for designs and IP to revert back to the licensor upon the conclusion of the term if that is the way the licence was constructed.

Of course as with most of this thread, we just don't know.

Indeed, there are lot's of ways these license agreements may be constructed.
I'd imagine that lt's actually pretty uncommon for the IP to simply stay with the licensee when the term runs out.

But Dark Heresy's rules weren't created byFFG but Black Industries which was the RPG branch of Black Library. Sure FFG did some major changes starting with Rogue Trader but it was still the same core system which was created by GW.

**Zingraff**

It's absolutely likely that FFG has created a board game originally designated for their GW license, which they've afterwards re-themed into something else. And it's nearly impossible to say which game it is, or even if it has been published yet, because it could be nearly anything, except SW: Armada, which it could not possibly be. Based on the releases by both companies in the past few years, it's obvious FFG was given a lot of room to develop games, except they weren't allowed to create actual miniature games.

I mean, the playing pieces for Forbidden Stars are impressive, but they're still not miniatures.

Herzlos wrote:
Zingraff wrote:

I've been a registered user of BoardGameGeek for 11 years, and an unregistered user for nearly 15 years, and their rating system is trustworthy and reliable. Three of the five board games GW has released since 2015, are all getting solid reviews on BGG; Betrayal at Calth gets an average rating of 8.1, based on 87 ratings, Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower gets an average of 7.9, based on 379 ratings, and Deathwatch Overkill gets 7.6 based on 69 ratings.

I'm not sure GW will fit the same pattern though; IIRC most of the GW games had lots of very high ratings before launch, from people who love the minis, so I'm not sure you can determine from the rating that the games themselves are actually any good, since I bet a large proportion of people rating the game have (and will) never actually played it.

That's always going to be one of the issues with how games are rated on BGG, it's usually mostly people who like a game, who rate it. So if a rating on BGG means anything, it's whether or not it satisfies the target audience. However, most of the 92 written comments for WH Quest: ST are clearly based on play experience and not expectations. And 7.9 based on 379 ratings, is still tremendous.

**reds8n**

http://icv2.com/articles/columns/view/35480/rolling-initiative-ffg-gw-end-partnership-four-likely-outcomes

olling for Initiative is a weekly column by Scott Thorne, PhD, owner of Castle Perilous Games & Books in Carbondale, Illinois and instructor in marketing at Southeast Missouri State University. This week, Thorne looks at some possible outcomes of the Fantasy Flight – Games Workshop split.

Following the time-honored tradition of releasing big news that will cause lots of questions that none of the parties involved want to answer immediately, Fantasy Flight Games Games announced this past Friday that it and Games Workshop have ended the agreement allowing Fantasy Flight Games to reprint new editions of classic Games Workshop games such as Talisman and Fury of Dracula and to create new games set in the Games Workshop worlds, such as Relic, Forbidden Stars and Chaos in the Old World (see "Fantasy Flight, Games Workshop End Licensing Relationship"). What effect will this have?

1. Scramble for current stock. The announcement has already started a run on current stocks of GW-related Fantasy Flight Games product. I called the Southern Hobby warehouse in St. Louis to check on the availability of a few of their best-selling titles and learned that a store had called them up earlier up that day and cleared out nearly everything the distributor had in stock. Given that sort of reaction, I would expect to hear about out-of-stocks on all of Fantasy Flight Games’ top selling GW games within a day or two and most of the less popular games within a week or better.

2. Price increases. Expect to see the law of supply and demand kick in as supply of the stock of FFG games gets scarcer. Especially on popular games such as Talisman and Fury of Dracula, it would not surprise me to see prices increase by 50% within a month or so as supplies get scarce. After all, when it was not available, prices on Czech Games’ Codenames, regularly a $19.99 game, shot up to $70 and I have seen copies of the basic game of Killer Bunnies and the Quest for the Magic Carrot sell for in excess of $125 during the holiday season. After all, as I have discussed regarding Pokemon card pricing, asking prices reflect what value the seller puts on a product. All the seller needs is one buyer willing to pay the supply driven price. Case in point, one eBay seller currently asking $20,000 for a 1st printing "Machamp" Pokemon card, while other stores have them priced at $5 to $6.

3. Limited if any restocks. As the agreement between the two companies ends next February, it is likely that we will see few if any restocks of FFG games currently in production. Although the company has improved its in-stock of products in the last couple of years, almost all of their games and gaming products are produced in China, meaning shipments will take anywhere from 4 weeks to 2 months for delivery under normal conditions. Given the recently announced bankruptcy of Hanjin Shipping Company, leaving its 80+ ships at sea with no current way to land and discharge their cargo, we can expect a slowdown of unloading of container ships on the West Coast, possibly leading to a large number of out-of-stocks during the holiday season.

4. Games Workshop Boardgame Line. Given the number of miniature themed boardgames that Games Workshop has released this year (Warhammer Quest Silver Tower, Lost Patrol) and the planned re-launch of Blood Bowl, it would not surprise me to see a relaunched GW boardgame division featuring games with miniature figures as pieces, such as Talisman and Relic, offered sometime in 2017. Doing so, however will take some time, leaving the market Talisman-less for several months.

I hope I am wrong and GW has plans to either ramp up their own production of the games, as rumors of the split have floated around the industry for several months now, or have a licensing agreement in place with another company already and we will see GW boardgames back on the market after only a few months out of stock, but I would not bet upon it.

The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editorial staff of ICv2.com.

**-Loki-**

To be fair, that article is basically saying 'water is wet'. All four of those are pretty obvious assumptions to make, with the exception of releasing them through GW themselves with miniatures, which all depends on how the license agreements were done..

**H.B.M.C.**

And nary a mention of the RPGs...

**bbb**

Chaos in the Old World up to $109 on Amazon.

**warboss**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
And nary a mention of the RPGs...

Sadly that statement applies to almost all of the rpg lines for years under Ffg so not much of a change for the end consumer.

**notprop**

RPGs....Pfft....soooo niche.

**Mitochondria**

Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

**ZebioLizard2**

Mitochondria wrote:
Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

...Congrats? I guess? Does this really matter at all to the topic at hand in any sort of way?

**Hulksmash**

Well I grabbed a copy of forbidden stars and chaos in the old world. I want horus heresy but apparently even ffg doesn't make it anymore so that's out for now. And I'll probably be dropping my conquest cards and grabbing the main books for all the rpgs just for fluff/style.

**Gen.Steiner**

If anyone's interested, The Games Den has two copies of Fury of Dracula, one of Conquest Core Set and one of Forbidden Stars, all at RRP.

Sadly not Chaos in the Old World though! I wish we did. I'd have bought it with my staff discount!

**SnotlingPimpWagon**

40k is bad and you should feel bad is what Mitoch trying to say.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

Mitochondria wrote:
Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

Burn that GW witch. How dare they spurn you!

**RIPferdy**

Man i cant wait for Rune Wars

**EnTyme**

Mitochondria wrote:
Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

So the kid wanted strawberries, so you pointed out that you like apples better, and they are also red fruit. I'm sure the kid will enjoy his apples, and I hope he does, but he still didn't get those strawberries he was craving.

Can we please stop saying that X-wing and 40k are the same thing? They are not.

**jreilly89**

EnTyme wrote:
Mitochondria wrote:
Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

So the kid wanted strawberries, so you pointed out that you like apples better, and they are also red fruit. I'm sure the kid will enjoy his apples, and I hope he does, but he still didn't get those strawberries he was craving.

Can we please stop saying that X-wing and 40k are the same thing? They are not.

Thank you. Especially with the new Start Collecting sets, 40k is easing down on the "insane cost to play" problem. Don't sell someone shrimp when they wanted steak.

**gorgon**

Mitochondria wrote:
Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

The funny part is that you actually think you deserve a gold star.

**Gen.Steiner**

It's still pretty expensive, but if you buy in bits and pieces, and play things like Kill Team and small skirmishes, it's not too bad.

And you can drop a lot on X-Wing very quickly...!

**Hulksmash**

So I grabbed all the core rulebooks and a few of the supplements that look like interesting reads. Also my board games. Only thing missing is the discwars core set which I didn't get to grab before it went out. Overall sad that this is ending but glad I'm not missing anything I'll love.

**OgreChubbs**

gorgon wrote:
Mitochondria wrote:
Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

The funny part is that you actually think you deserve a gold star.

so you told his mom he was not allowed to buy 100$ worth of something he wanted because... Reasons.
Then sold her a box of 100$ rip off ships you can buy at walmart and get them already built and painted for 20$. You basically sold him snake oil, for the cure.

Every kid given the option listen son that costs to much so you can buy this crap or nothing pick. They always pick the crap..... Think I seen a cartoon of people making fun of gw emploies doing this.

Thats like someone trying to buy a ipad and you talking them into a e-reader..... This is why I hate shops that do not sell just gw.
Half the paragraph didnt show retyping it.

**Backfire**

My reaction to all this is "shrug". The truth is that the market for Warhammer themed board games was pretty much saturated for some time with all those games FFG released, and miniature-themed board games GW itself has released in recent years. Sure there are maybe few titles which will be genuinely missed (Chaos in the Old World most notably) but other than that, party's over, hope most had good times and not too bad hangovers.

As for the RPG line, it had very clearly ran its course and it was time to put it down. Wait for few years and start over anew without the legacy system burden and when playerbase is again craving for new Warhammer RPG offering.

**frozenwastes**

OgreChubbs wrote:

Then sold her a box of 100$ rip off ships you can buy at walmart and get them already built and painted for 20$. You basically sold him snake oil, for the cure.

In a thread where FFG's licenced games have been very well regarded and the loss of the arrangement has caused some concern as people scramble to get the product they want while they can, calling a licensed product a "rip off" is just stupid. The comparison with the walmart ships is also way off as the walmart ones are very soft rubbery plastic while the FFG x-wing ships are generally very well regarded. I don't think very many people would argue against the statement that X-Wing represents the best prepainted miniatures in gaming history.

This is why I hate shops that do not sell just gw.

How dare GW have to stand up to competition!

One customer helped another avoid an ill suited product (see the reaction to finding out the total cost) and steered them towards one that met the needs of the customer more efficiently. That's all that happened here.

Thing thing that should most interest GW about this incident is that they rely heavily on word of mouth. On people recommending to their friends to get into GW's game. And here we have the opposite. Someone who is actively discouraging the sale of their products. That is something a company should never, ever want to see happen and they should take a really hard look at how they might be causing this phenomenon of reverse word of mouth advertising.

**warboss**

OgreChubbs wrote:
so you told his mom he was not allowed to buy 100$ worth of something he wanted because... Reasons.
Then sold her a box of 100$ rip off ships you can buy at walmart and get them already built and painted for 20$. You basically sold him snake oil, for the cure.

Every kid given the option listen son that costs to much so you can buy this crap or nothing pick. They always pick the crap..... Think I seen a cartoon of people making fun of gw emploies doing this.

Thats like someone trying to buy a ipad and you talking them into a e-reader..... This is why I hate shops that do not sell just gw.
Half the paragraph didnt show retyping it.

I'm not sure if you're being serious with the above but maybe fate was trying to tell you something when the entire internet recoiled at the absurdity of your post. The mother asked a simple but important question and recoiled at the truthful answer given. Instead of the store losing a sale completely, the parent was redirected to a game universe the child also liked but whose realistic buyin was within her budget... and a sale was made. Your ipad comparison is horrible as well. If someone can't afford the $500-700 cost of a new ipad but still wants a tablet, it is absolutely a good idea for all involved to suggest cheaper alternatives like android tablets that cost only a third of that.

**AegisGrimm**

OgreChubbs wrote:
gorgon wrote:
Mitochondria wrote:
Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

The funny part is that you actually think you deserve a gold star.

so you told his mom he was not allowed to buy 100$ worth of something he wanted because... Reasons.
Then sold her a box of 100$ rip off ships you can buy at walmart and get them already built and painted for 20$. You basically sold him snake oil, for the cure.

Every kid given the option listen son that costs to much so you can buy this crap or nothing pick. They always pick the crap..... Think I seen a cartoon of people making fun of gw emploies doing this.

Thats like someone trying to buy a ipad and you talking them into a e-reader..... This is why I hate shops that do not sell just gw.
Half the paragraph didnt show retyping it.

I'm not really sure what you are pissed about? He told the mom that there was another fun game in a universe the kid also liked, that required a lot less of an investment to get into. Then the kid had fun playing the game and decided to get into it. That's just about how anyone gets into any game, by a fan promoting it to them. It's your own problem if you think X-Wing is crap compared to 40k.

The very large investment into 40k is a decades-long fact, and the kid got steered in a direction that still allowed him to game. Better to inform upfront about what any miniatures game is going to cost to play.

**timetowaste85**

Is chaos in the old world worth getting? I can get my hands on a copy. Maybe even the Horned Rat expansion.

**frozenwastes**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Is chaos in the old world worth getting? I can get my hands on a copy. Maybe even the Horned Rat expansion.

Even if you decide you don't like it, you should be able to recoup your cost on the secondary market if you pay anything close to normal retail. People are looking for it, especially the expansion.