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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Maybe Alan Merrett had a point, because I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say I do not like this idea of a Genestealer Cult.

First and foremost, I will say the cult models we have to date are wonderful models, and I have no doubt that these new models will be equally as good, none the less, for me, the fluff is important here, and the fluff doesn't add up IMO.

I'm a huge Space Hulk fan, and for me, the terror of genestealers has always been those dark, narrow corridors, and that heart in mouth feeling when a genestealer is rushing towards your terminator, and then your storm bolter jams....

I like the genestealer models, and have always seen them as shock troops to tear apart power or terminator armour, but I never saw them as infiltrators (the lictor is far better for that IMO) or even as cultists...

For me, the dark heart of the Imperium, the enemy within, has always been Chaos cultists, and these are far more terrifying than any alien cult, because these humans, are no different to you or I, fluff wise...

If they could fall, so could we...

To my mind, it seems nonsensical to have two different cults like this in the background, because it dilutes the impact like both...

So yeah, great models, but gak fluff.

Just to put it one way, originally genestealer cults were a separate faction to tyranids... and this was even before space hulk was released. Back then there was even a possibility of the cults being chaos worshippers! They were still fairly similar xenomorph from aliens though.

Then GW did their copy pop culture thing (before they tried to claim all their idea's were origional) and make them inhabit space hulks as a way for genestealers to get planet side in the first places. So taking even more from the alien franchise, even making the models look slightly more xenomorph like! After this GW then decided after space hulk to make them the scouting, infiltration and covert ops aspect of tyranids. This is even backed up and supported fluff wise seeing genestealer cults were a fairly common occurance within the imperium long before the tyranids showed up and it took a while for the imperium to realise the link between the two.

I expect we'll all goo our pants when we see the truck... and then buy Mantic Mules for 1/3 the cost instead.

Today's image:

Please please please release purestrain 'easy assemble' box a la khorne bloodbound/stormcast

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Maybe Alan Merrett had a point, because I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say I do not like this idea of a Genestealer Cult.

First and foremost, I will say the cult models we have to date are wonderful models, and I have no doubt that these new models will be equally as good, none the less, for me, the fluff is important here, and the fluff doesn't add up IMO.

I'm a huge Space Hulk fan, and for me, the terror of genestealers has always been those dark, narrow corridors, and that heart in mouth feeling when a genestealer is rushing towards your terminator, and then your storm bolter jams....

I like the genestealer models, and have always seen them as shock troops to tear apart power or terminator armour, but I never saw them as infiltrators (the lictor is far better for that IMO) or even as cultists...

For me, the dark heart of the Imperium, the enemy within, has always been Chaos cultists, and these are far more terrifying than any alien cult, because these humans, are no different to you or I, fluff wise...

If they could fall, so could we...

To my mind, it seems nonsensical to have two different cults like this in the background, because it dilutes the impact like both...

So yeah, great models, but gak fluff.

Just to put it one way, originally genestealer cults were a separate faction to tyranids... and this was even before space hulk was released. Back then there was even a possibility of the cults being chaos worshippers! They were still fairly similar xenomorph from aliens though.

Then GW did their copy pop culture thing (before they tried to claim all their idea's were origional) and make them inhabit space hulks as a way for genestealers to get planet side in the first places. So taking even more from the alien franchise, even making the models look slightly more xenomorph like! After this GW then decided after space hulk to make them the scouting, infiltration and covert ops aspect of tyranids. This is even backed up and supported fluff wise seeing genestealer cults were a fairly common occurance within the imperium long before the tyranids showed up and it took a while for the imperium to realise the link between the two.

Good point.

Another problem I have with Genestealers, as much as I like them, is the role of Lictors.

Why do you need Genestealers when Lictors can do the whole assassination - demoralize - the - enemy - thing, just as well?

Bit of a contradiction in my book...

The background image appears to be a haruspex, or something else low to the ground with crushing claws. Any photo shoppers want to enhance?

Bonesword and Lash Whip on that Hybrid, AP3 and Instant Death at Initiative 6/7 can be pretty nasty.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I expect we'll all goo our pants when we see the truck... and then buy Mantic Mules for 1/3 the cost instead.

Why, Mantics models are terrible?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Maybe Alan Merrett had a point, because I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say I do not like this idea of a Genestealer Cult.

First and foremost, I will say the cult models we have to date are wonderful models, and I have no doubt that these new models will be equally as good, none the less, for me, the fluff is important here, and the fluff doesn't add up IMO.

I'm a huge Space Hulk fan, and for me, the terror of genestealers has always been those dark, narrow corridors, and that heart in mouth feeling when a genestealer is rushing towards your terminator, and then your storm bolter jams....

I like the genestealer models, and have always seen them as shock troops to tear apart power or terminator armour, but I never saw them as infiltrators (the lictor is far better for that IMO) or even as cultists...

For me, the dark heart of the Imperium, the enemy within, has always been Chaos cultists, and these are far more terrifying than any alien cult, because these humans, are no different to you or I, fluff wise...

If they could fall, so could we...

To my mind, it seems nonsensical to have two different cults like this in the background, because it dilutes the impact like both...

So yeah, great models, but gak fluff.

Just to put it one way, originally genestealer cults were a separate faction to tyranids... and this was even before space hulk was released. Back then there was even a possibility of the cults being chaos worshippers! They were still fairly similar xenomorph from aliens though.

Then GW did their copy pop culture thing (before they tried to claim all their idea's were origional) and make them inhabit space hulks as a way for genestealers to get planet side in the first places. So taking even more from the alien franchise, even making the models look slightly more xenomorph like! After this GW then decided after space hulk to make them the scouting, infiltration and covert ops aspect of tyranids. This is even backed up and supported fluff wise seeing genestealer cults were a fairly common occurance within the imperium long before the tyranids showed up and it took a while for the imperium to realise the link between the two.

Good point.

Another problem I have with Genestealers, as much as I like them, is the role of Lictors.

Why do you need Genestealers when Lictors can do the whole assassination - demoralize - the - enemy - thing, just as well?

Bit of a contradiction in my book...

Genestealers carry tyranid DNA and are primarily used to start these cults. They also happen to be skilled at melee therefore making them shock troops. Lictors are camouflaged and super strong, so their primary purpose is to be assassins.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
The background image appears to be a haruspex, or something else low to the ground with crushing claws. Any photo shoppers want to enhance?

I think thats the Genestealer Cult logo actually.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
[Good point.

Another problem I have with Genestealers, as much as I like them, is the role of Lictors.

Why do you need Genestealers when Lictors can do the whole assassination - demoralize - the - enemy - thing, just as well?

Bit of a contradiction in my book...

Lictors are solitary hunters. They are more like alien Rambo. They are useful for shortening a war by taking out important targets behind enemy lines and sowing fear and doubt amongst the enemy troops.

In contrast, Genestealer Cults are the long-advance vanguard. They work slowly, over generations, to infiltrate, undermine and destabilize a world before the Hive Fleet arrives. If a Genestealer Cult is properly successful, the target planet can throw up no more than a token resistance before the entire place is overthrown and becomes nothing more than a free buffet.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Maybe Alan Merrett had a point, because I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say I do not like this idea of a Genestealer Cult.

First and foremost, I will say the cult models we have to date are wonderful models, and I have no doubt that these new models will be equally as good, none the less, for me, the fluff is important here, and the fluff doesn't add up IMO.

...

For me, the dark heart of the Imperium, the enemy within, has always been Chaos cultists, and these are far more terrifying than any alien cult, because these humans, are no different to you or I, fluff wise...

If they could fall, so could we...

To my mind, it seems nonsensical to have two different cults like this in the background, because it dilutes the impact like both...

So yeah, great models, but gak fluff.

I am the opposite. I am very tired of the trope that anything malignant within the imperium has to be tied to Chaos. The imperium is a large and diverse place after all. I love the fluff of the shadow dimensions and the beings within in the Dark Eldar codex for example. I played a Cult "army" in 2nd/3rd, and I got a very different feel of the threat from GSC and Chaos, and I loved it. Hopefully they will manage to distinguish them enough from each other.

Lictors cannot implant their genes into a host and subvert an entire population centre prior to Tyranid invasion.

There's room enough in the galaxy for two cults imho. GSC doesn't take away from Chaos.

Messiah wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Maybe Alan Merrett had a point, because I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say I do not like this idea of a Genestealer Cult.

First and foremost, I will say the cult models we have to date are wonderful models, and I have no doubt that these new models will be equally as good, none the less, for me, the fluff is important here, and the fluff doesn't add up IMO.

...

For me, the dark heart of the Imperium, the enemy within, has always been Chaos cultists, and these are far more terrifying than any alien cult, because these humans, are no different to you or I, fluff wise...

If they could fall, so could we...

To my mind, it seems nonsensical to have two different cults like this in the background, because it dilutes the impact like both...

So yeah, great models, but gak fluff.

I am the opposite. I am very tired of the trope that anything malignant within the imperium has to be tied to Chaos. The imperium is a large and diverse place after all. I love the fluff of the shadow dimensions and the beings within in the Dark Eldar codex for example. I played a Cult "army" in 2nd/3rd, and I got a very different feel of the threat from GSC and Chaos, and I loved it. Hopefully they will manage to distinguish them enough from each other.

So you're tired of the core fluff of the entire system of 40k? That's gotta be tough then since chaos being at the heart of the Imperium IS what the game is all about :p

 Imateria wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I expect we'll all goo our pants when we see the truck... and then buy Mantic Mules for 1/3 the cost instead.

Why, Mantics models are terrible?

That's going a little hyperbolic, don't you think?

For an open-topped jeep/humvee-type vehicle, the Mule looks decent - though I'd want to wait until it is on general release before picking one up, given I wasn't involved int he Warpath KS.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Good point.

Another problem I have with Genestealers, as much as I like them, is the role of Lictors.

Why do you need Genestealers when Lictors can do the whole assassination - demoralize - the - enemy - thing, just as well?

Bit of a contradiction in my book...

There's more than one way to skin a cat. That would be like saying, why do the IoM need so many Assassinorum Temples?

 Kirasu wrote:


So you're tired of the core fluff of the entire system of 40k? That's gotta be tough then since chaos being at the heart of the Imperium IS what the game is all about :p

Wrong, if the game was all about that then the entire game would be a RPG in which Inquisitors hunt Chaos Cultists. In fact, I'm pretty sure that game already exist, but its called Dark Heresy IIRC.

Ramped up contrast. I don't see a Haruspex in there, I do see a dude in the background.

The topic is the teases and releases.

There's a whole other section of the site for which bits of the fluff do and don't fit your head-canon.

What's coming out is the new fluff and it looks simultaneously reverential AND introducing new units and armaments.

Discuss the Lashwhip and Bonesword on that Acolyte for sure (like, WTF? CRAY CRAY) but discussing whether Cults should be infiltrated into Imperial society is futile, as it has been thus since the first Hybrid models came out. You're 20+ yrs too late to protest that bit! It's also OFF TOPIC.

So about that Lashwhip and Bonesword, and that Cutting Saw... these kits could have quite the array of bits in them! It's rather exciting. And is the vehicle a dual-build? Seems like it may well be?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Maybe Alan Merrett had a point, because I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and say I do not like this idea of a Genestealer Cult.

First and foremost, I will say the cult models we have to date are wonderful models, and I have no doubt that these new models will be equally as good, none the less, for me, the fluff is important here, and the fluff doesn't add up IMO.

I'm a huge Space Hulk fan, and for me, the terror of genestealers has always been those dark, narrow corridors, and that heart in mouth feeling when a genestealer is rushing towards your terminator, and then your storm bolter jams....

I like the genestealer models, and have always seen them as shock troops to tear apart power or terminator armour, but I never saw them as infiltrators (the lictor is far better for that IMO) or even as cultists...

For me, the dark heart of the Imperium, the enemy within, has always been Chaos cultists, and these are far more terrifying than any alien cult, because these humans, are no different to you or I, fluff wise...

If they could fall, so could we...

To my mind, it seems nonsensical to have two different cults like this in the background, because it dilutes the impact like both...

So yeah, great models, but gak fluff.

Wait, whut?

First, as Baldeagle points out, the Tyranids appropriated the Genestealers, not the other way around - they were infiltrators seeding cults before they were shock troops shredding Terminators. Regardless though, why are the two mutually exclusive? The cults are a side-effect of one stage of their lifecycle, the Terminator-shredding is part of a different part - the fact they're more than just a generic OpFor for Space Marines or mindless drones for the Hive Mind makes them more intriguing, not less.

Second, why on earth would it be nonsensical to have more than one non-Imperial cult in the background? That's like saying there's no point in having more than one Chaos God, or more than one alien race, or more than one Guard regiment - GSCults are as different in form and purpose from Chaos cults as Chaos cults are from Imperial religion. Chaos cults are the Enemy Within, our own flaws consuming us, our own discord undermining us, the manifestation of the corruption that was already within us. Genestealer cults are the Enemy Without, an insidious external assault, our fear of the Other made manifest, a foe that corrupts even the pure and the righteous.

Third, if there aren't any truly insidious alien threats, you also just made the Ordo Xenos a hell of a lot more boring, since they have less to do, and fewer reasons to be in conflict with other Inquisitors.

Nah man, we need more cults, xenos & otherwise, not less.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Third, if there aren't any truly insidious alien threats, you also just made the Ordo Xenos a hell of a lot more boring, since they have less to do, and fewer reasons to be in conflict with other Inquisitors.

Their Cup Of Tea And A Sit Down Strike Force always has a backlog of applicants, for some reason...

Thanks to all those who replied to my original post, and I'll just do a general response to cover most of the points.

I like Tyranids, and I like the models, especially the Deathwatch cultists, so this is not a anti-Tyranid rant, as the 40k galaxy is big enough for an alien race.

For me, the endearing appeal of the 40k background is a story theme that has existed in mankind since our ancestors walked the Earth - the struggle in every heart between good and evil.

If you're fan of Milton's Paradise Lost, which I am, then you'll instantly recognize the influence it had on the Horus Heresy, and the war in Heaven between God (The Emperor) and Lucifer (Horus)

This is not news to anybody, but for me, the black heart, the malignant influence of the Chaos Cults is the long continuation of that.

That's why I don't like Chaos Cults being elbowed out by Genestealer cults...

GW, as we know, has already borrowed heavily from pop and sci-fi culture, and there's nothing wrong that,

but IMO, the 40k fluff is beginning too feel to 'crowded; with so much stuff going on.

Will probably start a thread on this idea sometime

..But genestealer cults have existed since rogue trader, they've been there since the beginning and just been in the background mostly.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
..But genestealer cults have existed since rogue trader, they've been there since the beginning and just been in the background mostly.

Lurking unseen, just below the surface, like the good little cultists they are. Waiting, always waiting, for the perfect moment to reveal themselves.

I’m in the camp thinking there is plenty of space for all. 40k is a big place, and the Imperium is beset by many foes, within and without.

And who said Chaos Cults were being elbowed out anyway?

This is adding something back into 40K that's been Merrett for... sorry, missing for far too long.

Now come on everyone. Stop being angry, stop worrying, and let the Emperor's benevolent love embrace you with all four of his arms!

 xttz wrote:
Today's image:

Cheers for the share. That appears to be a Lash Whip and Bonesword on an Acolyte, right? Nice. Curious to see what other weapons these things have.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For me, the endearing appeal of the 40k background is a story theme that has existed in mankind since our ancestors walked the Earth - the struggle in every heart between good and evil.

If you're fan of Milton's Paradise Lost, which I am, then you'll instantly recognize the influence it had on the Horus Heresy, and the war in Heaven between God (The Emperor) and Lucifer (Horus)

The important fundamental difference with Genestealer Cults is that they have nothing to do with the underlined.

Despite the name, Genestealer Cults aren't truly about worship or religion. The corruption involved isn't of one's morals -- it's a genetic level. The implantation process not only causes a species to bear hybrid children, it also reprograms their brains. The growing 'family' that's created takes on the appearance of a religion or cult, but that really has nothing to do with it. What joins them is genetic material, not shared beliefs.

When you boil both entities down, Chaos cults are a kind of devil worship horror archetype, while Genestealer cults relate to a 'body snatchers' sci-fi archetype.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Thanks to all those who replied to my original post, and I'll just do a general response to cover most of the points.

I like Tyranids, and I like the models, especially the Deathwatch cultists, so this is not a anti-Tyranid rant, as the 40k galaxy is big enough for an alien race.

For me, the endearing appeal of the 40k background is a story theme that has existed in mankind since our ancestors walked the Earth - the struggle in every heart between good and evil.

If you're fan of Milton's Paradise Lost, which I am, then you'll instantly recognize the influence it had on the Horus Heresy, and the war in Heaven between God (The Emperor) and Lucifer (Horus)

This is not news to anybody, but for me, the black heart, the malignant influence of the Chaos Cults is the long continuation of that.

That's why I don't like Chaos Cults being elbowed out by Genestealer cults...

GW, as we know, has already borrowed heavily from pop and sci-fi culture, and there's nothing wrong that,

but IMO, the 40k fluff is beginning too feel to 'crowded; with so much stuff going on.

Will probably start a thread on this idea sometime

That's awesome.

My opinion is that the dualistic storyline between one-dimensional, puffed up "good guys" and one-dimensional, slavering "bad guys" is the single least interesting aspect of the fluff. To me, the single most telling bit of this aspect of fluff came from the original Dawn of War game. If you enter the game as the Space Marines, one of their common quotes when clicked on is "Cleanse, purge, kill!" and if you choose the chaos marines, they instead say (in similar inflection) "Maim, burn, kill!"

One is (in this aspect of the story, at least) depicted as white, and shiny, and brave, and everything that is good, and one is depicted as black, pointy, and cartoonishly evil.

And then there are fluff elements brought in by the IoM's interaction with the various Xenos elements. Barring the tyranids, every alien race as well as the humans are morally complex and interesting. Genestealer cults, even if they don't bring that complexity to the still one-note tyranids, at least they allow them to provide a backdrop for an actually interesting story. A chaos cult of khorne goes crazy because there's a massively powerful god of crazy bloodlust. They'll do blood things with skulls and violence because of the crazy god. A genestealer cult (at least partially) can have more complex motives. With GW's mining motif, they're showing a totally justified, and inevitably doomed, rebellion against an oppressive and monstrous government by the lower class.

But you know what the most important part of my opinion on the matter is?

It doesn't invalidate yours. You can enjoy the dualistic aspects of the story, and amazingly, the game takes place in an entire galaxy with LOTS of room in it. The game doesn't have to have just one thing.

The way I see it, there is plenty of room in the 40K Universe for everything that is going on. Basically, it is a huge, multi-layered canvas that anyone can pick a spot on and say "that's my kind of art". Then we can all play games together in that shared space and have lots of fun with whatever aspects appeal most to us.

Is it a change that the cults know something is coming?

In the old background the cults were unaware about the fleets coming until they arrived and took over as far as I remember, but now they are referring to the coming fleets as gods

Vorian wrote:
Is it a change that the cults know something is coming?

In the old background the cults were unaware about the fleets coming until they arrived and took over as far as I remember, but now they are referring to the coming fleets as gods

In the old background they weren't linked to the tyranids at all.... which was explained by the modern fluff as the imperium not knowing they were linked.

I think most the fluff since the link was established stated that they became directly under the control of the tyranid hive mind via a psychic link once the hive fleet became so close. Prior to that it wasn't clarified whether their were motivated simply by genetic behaviour adaption, religion or social causes. So for example some simple went mental, some would raise up by some created religion and others would rise up to address social inequalities. I think it kinda makes sense that it would be dependent on the situation, for example in a relativley social equal world a religious uprising would make more sense, but when it comes to the average hive, a social cause makes more sense seeing the imperiums religious intolerance.

Either way they have always in some way, shape or form been under the psychic control of the patriarch. That said I was always under the impression that the religious/social reasons behind the cults was more a recruiting tool late in the cults lifespan as it gets larger to encourage more recruits to volunteer before indoctrination. The initial cultists always retreat underground as their mutations are far too obvious.