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Mr.Church13 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Handing Tyranids tanks would effectively make fielding regular guard the most useless thing in the game. Why would anyone take plain guard, ever, when they can just take the Tanks + Biomonsters of a BB genestealer cult.

No, there's no way they end up BB. It would mean the end of IG almost completely.

I really truly cannot tell if you're serious or joking here.

Are you saying that the ability to ally in tyranids as battle brothers would make IG totally obsolete, because who would take IG at that point?

...You know IG is currently classified as "Armies of the Imperium" right? this means they have...if I'm counting right...eleven battle brother factions already?

What do tyranid MCs do that, say, allied Kastelan robots or dreadknights do not?

Armies of invisible FMCs backed up by the IG armory is pretty devastating.

Yes, but we have no idea *what* GSC can bring other than a limo. Nor do we know if its at a reduced stateline, or increased price, or anything of that nature.

Furthermore, Nids are in such a bad spot atm anyway, that we really should wait and see what happens. If nothing else, it gives nids options insead of "Bring as many Flyrants as physically possible" to *try* to compete.

Arkengate wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Handing Tyranids tanks would effectively make fielding regular guard the most useless thing in the game. Why would anyone take plain guard, ever, when they can just take the Tanks + Biomonsters of a BB genestealer cult.

No, there's no way they end up BB. It would mean the end of IG almost completely.

I really truly cannot tell if you're serious or joking here.

Are you saying that the ability to ally in tyranids as battle brothers would make IG totally obsolete, because who would take IG at that point?

...You know IG is currently classified as "Armies of the Imperium" right? this means they have...if I'm counting right...eleven battle brother factions already?

What do tyranid MCs do that, say, allied Kastelan robots or dreadknights do not?

Armies of invisible FMCs backed up by the IG armory is pretty devastating.

Yes, but we have no idea *what* GSC can bring other than a limo. Nor do we know if its at a reduced stateline, or increased price, or anything of that nature.

Furthermore, Nids are in such a bad spot atm anyway, that we really should wait and see what happens. If nothing else, it gives nids options insead of "Bring as many Flyrants as physically possible" to *try* to compete.

I was very exciter when the cult formation from death watch hit since it let me field tyranids warriors with a character that gave them stealth as well as shrouded 1st Turn and some cool new psychic shenanigans. Made me drop a flyrant and some other stuff. I was heartbroken when we lost battle brothers. Space marines can have invisible teleporting cent stars but an invisible melee unit of warriors is too op I guess. I'm really looking forward to the new codex and hoping for battle Bros again since they have their own psychic discipline now.

Arkengate wrote:

Yes, but we have no idea *what* GSC can bring other than a limo. Nor do we know if its at a reduced stateline, or increased price, or anything of that nature.

Read the rules for the GSC stuff, specifically "The Faithful Throng", from Overkill.

They're Guardsmen in everything but name and unit size.

Furthermore, Nids are in such a bad spot atm anyway, that we really should wait and see what happens. If nothing else, it gives nids options insead of "Bring as many Flyrants as physically possible" to *try* to compete.

Except then what happens to Guard?

We've seen this in the past with Marine books(and we're seeing it get fixed/adjusted now with the supplemental materials) where if multiple books have the same units and one book lingers but the others get updated, it makes for a really poor design and leaves players feeling like their army is getting shafted in favor of the "new hotness".


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Timeshadow wrote:

I was very exciter when the cult formation from death watch hit since it let me field tyranids warriors with a character that gave them stealth as well as shrouded 1st Turn and some cool new psychic shenanigans. Made me drop a flyrant and some other stuff. I was heartbroken when we lost battle brothers. Space marines can have invisible teleporting cent stars but an invisible melee unit of warriors is too op I guess. I'm really looking forward to the new codex and hoping for battle Bros again since they have their own psychic discipline now.

You do know that the "invisible teleporting centstars" is basically costing that Marine player all his points, yeah? Or making him do some weird thing of formation+CAD?

Additionally, with the way the new detachments for the various Chapters are set up--a few cannot even get Librarius Conclaves or Centurions.

Just looking at the PDF you linked, Kan, it looks like GSC members with Boneswords happened first in DW:OK - Primus Vorgan Trysst is wielding one, though there is no explanation of where he got it from.

I just noticed something in re-reading the fluff for Primus Vorgan Trysst. It says that he can render his opponents comatose with his needle pistol, and that the toxins in it are derived from his own blood. This reminded me of the stuff I recently re-read from the old RT era Cult rules - that some early gen Hybrids still had Ovipositors, but those that didn't could still infect hosts using their blood. It is also mentioned that victims of the Genestealer Kiss are rendered unconscious and later wake up with no memory of being attacked by a Genestealer. Anyone else think that little tidbit may be a subtle reference in Primus Trysst's fluff info to that old notion?

Thinking on it, the idea of using his weapon not only to knock out opposing forces, but to also secretly infect them with Genestealer DNA so that they can be "rescued" by their friends later, only to subvert them in turn is pretty sweet.

From a background perspective, the originating genestealer came from a hive ship, it will be covered in nid 'bacteria' or nid 'microscopic constructs' or 'biological nanites' or whatever they want to call them, when the stealer remains in a single place long enough, that stuff starts growing, gets secreted whathaveyou, eventually bioorganic structures form, some of those might bud or fruit the weaponry and so on.

'Looks like some kind of secreted resin...'
'Yeah but secreted from what?'
'Nobody touch nothing...'

You know, I've long been opposed to the idea of the Genestealer Cult including anything other than the weapons and such that Genestealer's normally have as part of their anatomy, and that includes these boneswords and lash whips, but the explanation you just gave might actually convince me otherwise. The Tyranid threat is insidious indeed!

And what a great (and terrible) mental image - a bonesword or lash whip "budding" as the fruit of a Tyranid bio-factory plant that came along for the ride.

Don't get me wrong though, I still don't want Cultists with Devourers and Fleshborers and such - I think keeping it to the more simple, single-organism close-combat biomorphs would be best. (Kind of like how the T-1000 was limited to making stabbing and slashing weapons, but wasn't sophisticated enough to form bombs or firearms.)

 Dysartes wrote:
Just looking at the PDF you linked, Kan, it looks like GSC members with Boneswords happened first in DW:OK - Primus Vorgan Trysst is wielding one, though there is no explanation of where he got it from.

I think it is implied that the Bonesword was something 'grown' via a failed hybrid aberrant.

 Kanluwen wrote:
For the record:

I'm happy for those who are excited for the Genestealer Cults, no matter my feelings on the Guard stuff being thrown in. I'm gonna bow out of this thread for awhile so that I don't let my negativity dampen anyone's feelings.

This is a very mature thing to do, good for you, no sarcasm.

Sidenote - As stated previously, it was the natural path for GSC to get imperial vehicles, this has always been the theme of the army, always. I loves it!

A few quick things on this all over topic just because a PDF force or guard regiment can be technically subverted to the genecult doesn't mean the Astra Militarum unit will have access to the rest of the imperial forces that signify the current guard codex. In other words I don't expect any flyers which all fall under the imperial navy, I don't expect any vehicles that fall under forgeworlds jurisdictions, and I don't expect any units that fall under the auxilia sections of the Astra Militarum. This mainly leaves only infantry, chimeras, basic taurox, and leman Russ tanks. The rest is essentially outside the normal PDF/guard jurisdictions.

Furthermore the main point of genestealers is not just subverting local populaces to make them easier to consume but thier main design is being scouts to locate a large enough organic matter and once it has that location subverted enough send a psychic signal back to the hive to consume the location. Genestealers are basically food hunters for the hive. They spread and scout until they find this food and send out a call.

 Kanluwen wrote:

You do know that the "invisible teleporting centstars" is basically costing that Marine player all his points, yeah? Or making him do some weird thing of formation+CAD?

Additionally, with the way the new detachments for the various Chapters are set up--a few cannot even get Librarius Conclaves or Centurions.

You do know that fitting five or more flyrants into a list costs tyranid players the majority of their points or make them do weird or undesirable things like taking two mucolids and a flyrant as one detachment x5.
You do also know that that centastar still wrecks havoc on most other lists despite being only part of an army, albeit a good chunk of points. And it can be Allied into other forces.

What I see from most tyrants players is that they just want to be able to compete while not having to spam FMC. Giving us GSC could Very well be th first step in fixing some of the issue that plague the Codex. The first of a good few steps that hopefully include a semblance of balance amongst the armies.

If I understand correctly how GSC reproduces, the 1st generation corresponds to babies born to women who were infected by a genestealer. Then the 2 generation is made of the offspring of 1st generation hybrids, and so on. There should therefore be female genestealer hybrids, to produce the generations beyond the first.
I think all the models from Deathwatch OK were male. Is there a fluff reason why we would only see males?

fresus wrote:
If I understand correctly how GSC reproduces, the 1st generation corresponds to babies born to women who were infected by a genestealer. Then the 2 generation is made of the offspring of 1st generation hybrids, and so on. There should therefore be female genestealer hybrids, to produce the generations beyond the first.
I think all the models from Deathwatch OK were male. Is there a fluff reason why we would only see males?

First gnerations are from male or female. Then the first gen breeds with the general populace via snatch and grab or hypnosis, breeding the second. They appear more human, making it easier to produce the third gens, who appear wholly human. Then they produce Purestrains from whomever they breed with.

Female genehybrids can hide away from their partners if they aren't hybrids, while female humans that birth hybrids or Purestrains have their biology altered while the creature gestates. When born, they're essentially permanently enthralled by their child.

 Carnikang wrote:

fresus wrote:
If I understand correctly how GSC reproduces, the 1st generation corresponds to babies born to women who were infected by a genestealer. Then the 2 generation is made of the offspring of 1st generation hybrids, and so on. There should therefore be female genestealer hybrids, to produce the generations beyond the first.
I think all the models from Deathwatch OK were male. Is there a fluff reason why we would only see males?

First gnerations are from male or female. Then the first ten breeds with the general populace via snatch and grab or hypnosis, breeding the second. They appear more human, making it easier to produce the third gens, who appear wholly human. Then they produce Purestrains from whomever they breed with.

Female genehybrids can hide away from their partners if they aren't hybrids, while female humans that birth hybrids or Purestrains have their biology altered while the creature gestates. When born, they're essentially permanently enthralled by their child.

or die during birth.

Usually they live as it is important that they have more children (which will be human) to grow the cult.

Essentially the cult is one massive happy family.

fresus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Really don't know what the problem is with GSC stealing Guard vehicles. Them getting Russes is nothing new.

I'm pretty exited about the GSC, but I can see how looted vehicle can be irritating to IG players.
Tanks are IG's thing. The Leman Russ is an iconic model, and is part of what defines IG. If another army is given the right to use that model, then IG looses some of what makes it unique.

You mean like Orks and The Lost and the Damned used to be able to do back in 3rd edition?


That said, it seems that for the past few editions only real cross-codex vehicles were to get spiky and non-spiky versions of SM/CSM vehicles. They changed the looted vehicle rules for orcs from just taking one from another codex to one with a generic armor value and standard orky weapons. Shame LatD is now just formations with cultists, though. Renegade IG types with cultists that aren't messed with by the current allies table would have been nice.

IIRC the 1st and 2nd gen hybrids "reproduced" in the same way as purestrains, they used there optivisers to infect humans with there DNA. It was with the 3rd and 4th gens that they lost that ability. Purestrains were born by infecting a human female with blood from the Magus.

What other vehicles "fall under forgeworlds jurisdictions"? That would be the vehicles in the Codex: Skitarii and Codex: Cult Mechanicus. All the ones in the Astra Militarum army list may have been built on a Forge World, but they're owned and operated by the Departmento Munitarum or the government of whichever planet's PDF they're in.

If they're even built on a Forge World at all. Armageddon builds Basilisk and Medusa artillery pieces, for example.

As for the real-world history of the genestealers, originally in the Rogue Trader rules the genestealer was a wild beast, which created hybrids pretty much instantly (and which burst out from the implanted victim, like the Alien).

In 1989,Space Hulk introduced the idea of them infesting space hulks and reinvented their reproductive cycle into having them mutate their victim's offspring. The revised 40k rules which came along at roughly the same time added the Genestealer Invasion Force army list (Purestrains and early-generation hybrids awoken from stasis on a space hulk) and the Genestealer Cult army list.

At this point, the generic term for the extended family led by a Patriarch was the Genestealer Brood or when it had spread over several generations, the Clan. The Cult was a Brood which had allied with Chaos - to the extent that the Patriarch had offered itself up for daemonic possession - to gain more power.

There were also Ork hybrids, although the Orks' reproductive cycle (old Orks would wander off into the wilderness to breed, and then leave the resulting youngsters to survive on their own as wildboyz before being reintegrated into mainstream Ork society) meant that this wasn't a viable life cycle, and any purestrain desperate enough to end up with a brood of Ork Hybrids would try to use them as a means to encountering more useful hosts.

The Tyranid army list in WD145 (1992) made Brood units an adjunct of the Tyranid army, but without making the previous two army lists irrelevant. Then 2nd edition came along and dropped the Chaos angle entirely, as part of 2nd edition's efforts to make the different factions more distinct. A move that backfired slightly when they had access to every bit of kit the Imperial Guard had at the time (as well as plenty of things the Guard no longer had, like plasma cannons, multi-meltas, thud guns, mole mortars, Rhinos and Land Speeders).

GoatboyBeta wrote:
IIRC the 1st and 2nd gen hybrids "reproduced" in the same way as purestrains, they used there optivisers to infect humans with there DNA. It was with the 3rd and 4th gens that they lost that ability. Purestrains were born by infecting a human female with blood from the Magus.

1st and 2nd have the kiss, it's often sterile in 2nd gen, so 3rd gen sees a population slump, are most welcomed, and are the first of two generations that 'conventionally' mate. The 4th generation, all of them, have the capacity to produce purestrain genestealer offspring, through conventional mating. In some background this was only ever the firstborn child, in other mentions, it was all children of the 4th.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But that's the thing. The Tyranid creatures aren't supposed to recognize the Cult as allies. They just consume them right along with everyone else. So sure, the Cult allies with the Tyranids. Then the Tyranids just eat them anyway. How do you represent that on the tabletop?

Making them allies (at any level) ruins the entire thematic concept of the Cult. It's the grimdark tragic downfall. The Cult puts in so much work to subvert the planet's human authority and welcome their saviors... and their reward is to be completely disregarded and consumed as if they were nobody special.

But that does not make any sense whatsoever. The cultists are brainwashed. They do whatever hive mind does. They are PART of the hive mind by the time it comes there. Why hive mind would use part of itself killing part of itself while there's still humans to kill around before planet is conquered? When all it takes is flick of thought and cultists would be killing humans alongside other tyranids...

This is inficting typical of orks and makes it more likely tyranid fleet will get beaten up and defeated. Is hive mind in reality total idiot?

 Carnikang wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You do know that the "invisible teleporting centstars" is basically costing that Marine player all his points, yeah? Or making him do some weird thing of formation+CAD?

Additionally, with the way the new detachments for the various Chapters are set up--a few cannot even get Librarius Conclaves or Centurions.

You do know that fitting five or more flyrants into a list costs tyranid players the majority of their points or make them do weird or undesirable things like taking two mucolids and a flyrant as one detachment x5.
You do also know that that centastar still wrecks havoc on most other lists despite being only part of an army, albeit a good chunk of points. And it can be Allied into other forces.

What I see from most tyrants players is that they just want to be able to compete while not having to spam FMC. Giving us GSC could Very well be th first step in fixing some of the issue that plague the Codex. The first of a good few steps that hopefully include a semblance of balance amongst the armies.

So much this. One of these years I want a codex where the army isn't limited to one build, and doesn't have to rely on FW stuff, to be semi competitive. I know as a Tyranid player what I want - and from reading other threads I think other Nid players feel the same - is the ability to have variety without sacrificing the ability to even compete. I'm ok with the Allies of Convenience for the GSC, but I really don't think BB would be as OP as some people seem to think.

It makes me such a proud patriarch to see all you guys talking the intricacies of Cult fluff. Brings a tear to my eye.

 gorgon wrote:
It makes me such a proud patriarch to see all you guys talking the intricacies of Cult fluff. Brings a tear to my eye.

Until the rules are out and then it will go the way of Deathwatch and Blood Angels, and not really herd from again. Funny how lackluster rules will kill excitement.

don't think it will. I'd say that a lot of 40k don't really care about the competitiveness of an army, uneles they are pure lemon

 streetsamurai wrote:
don't think it will. I'd say that a lot of 40k don't really care about the competitiveness of an army, uneles they are pure lemon

I'm in that group. Sure would be playing something besides Nids, Orks and Guard if I did.

 doctortom wrote:


Renegade IG types with cultists that aren't messed with by the current allies table would have been nice.

FW has that, its Imperial Armor 13.

Don't get me wrong, If I saw GSC models on the table top, I'd quite happily break out the heavy bolters and send these alien scum to Hades.

Nor am I trying to dampen anybody else's enjoyment of the game.

From my perspective, sci-fi always works best when it has the familar element in it, as well as the wacky, wierd stuff.

The average Joe hero, the rookie Imperial Guardsman, the Chaos cultist who could have been a good guy, but was born on the wrong side of town etc etc

40k like any other sci-fi needs that human perspective, people we can relate to.

Tyranids should be in it, but as unworldly, exotic, mysterious aliens, not aliens that breed with humans...

Best leave that to Ripley and Corporal Hicks

I'll say no more on this.

 streetsamurai wrote:
don't think it will. I'd say that a lot of 40k don't really care about the competitiveness of an army, uneles they are pure lemon

If it's good enough for casual play, then it's good enough for most. How many people truly play the game competitively anyone, and base all their purchases and decisions on whether an army can handle an invisible deathstar or gargantuan creature?

Saw it a couple pages ago, but if they turned out a GSC Start Collecting box, I would be all over it

If they bring back possessed Patriarchs and mutated Genestealers I will squee like a little girl for a solid week

Making Patriarchs and Magi able to take Malific daemonology powers and AoC with Chaos would be a compromise