Another day another spree shooting. Mall in Houston , Texas.

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**Vaktathi**

The CDC can and does collect data on firearms related incidents. Huge volumes of it. What it cannot do is undertake studies to recommend gun control solutions.

Spree killings are increasing, but overall killings are dramatically declining. Spree killings are ultimately rare events that dont kill huge numbers of people in the big picture but make a great big whopping news impact, and that may be a large driver of such behavior.

One will notice that when you could mail order a machine gun through the mail and have it delivered to your door across state lines without an FFL or background check, spree killings were almost nonexistent and limited to gangster on gangster stuff mostly. Something has changed socially such that people who wouldn't have dreamed of doing such a thing 90 years ago now find it a viable method of seeking vindication or whatever.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:
There are a lot more people and guns in the USA than 100 years ago. Draw your own conclusions.

Thats ...ok. Yes there are more people and guns that there were 100 years ago. More airplanes and spaceships too. Unfortunately the scourge of cat people continues unabated as well.

**TheCustomLime**

Vaktathi wrote:
The CDC can and does collect data on firearms related incidents. Huge volumes of it. What it cannot do is undertake studies to recommend gun control solutions.

Spree killings are increasing, but overall killings are dramatically declining. Spree killings are ultimately rare events that dont kill huge numbers of people in the big picture but make a great big whopping news impact, and that may be a large driver of such behavior.

One will notice that when you could mail order a machine gun through the mail and have it delivered to your door across state lines without an FFL or background check, spree killings were almost nonexistent and limited to gangster on gangster stuff mostly. Something has changed socially such that people who wouldn't have dreamed of doing such a thing 90 years ago now find it a viable method of seeking vindication or whatever.

Media hype may have something to do with this. Ever since columbine every crazy person knows that the easiest way to get mass media recognition is to start shooting up a place with a lot of people.

**Vaktathi**

Aye, that would be my guess. People looking for something other than obscurity opting for infamy in response to perceived humiliations and a loss of place in the world that 50 years ago would have provided a different future.

**whembly**

--didn't know where to stick this, so stuck it here as it's tangently related--

Orlando Police just released the full Omar Mateen’s phone conversations with police the night he shoot the Pulse...

Mateen repeatedly told police he wanted to send a message to Americans and get them to stop aerial drone strikes against ISIS forces.

This is my shocked face:

**kronk**

Even the early reports stated that he made pro-ISIS claims before and during the attack, right?

We already knew the basics, but we didn't have the full transcript.

**whembly**

kronk wrote:
Even the early reports stated that he made pro-ISIS claims before and during the attack, right?

Aye... pretty much.

Even though this Administration tried so hard to say that it wasn't so... even the intial transcripts, the FBI scrubbed out any references to ISIS and Allah. But, you could "read between the lines"...

We already knew the basics, but we didn't have the full transcript.

And now we know definitively...

Just goes to show to not make any determination in the first few hours (or weeks). But, sometimes, if it walks like a duck...

**feeder**

whembly wrote:

Just goes to show to not make any determination in the first few hours (or weeks). But, sometimes, if it walks like a duck...

So we can all agree that the War on Terror is an unwinnable farce?

Because the only real connection between spree shooters in America and Daesh groups claiming "responsibility" is a shared delusion in an Abrahambic myth.

We can't fight an idea.

The only way to "win" is to undertake massive nation building in Syria and Iraq, like we did in Germany and Japan post WW2. The reason Daesh groups have power and influence is they are the closest thing to a functioning government in their areas of influence.

**whembly**

feeder wrote:
whembly wrote:

Just goes to show to not make any determination in the first few hours (or weeks). But, sometimes, if it walks like a duck...

So we can all agree that the War on Terror is an unwinnable farce?.

Nah... because we aren't in a true war.

If we used all our resources, there wouldn't be any Terrors alive to fight back.

Because the only real connection between spree shooters in America and Daesh groups claiming "responsibility" is a shared delusion in an Abrahambic myth.

Horse pucky.

We can't fight an idea.

The only way to "win" is to undertake massive nation building in Syria and Iraq, like we did in Germany and Japan post WW2. The reason Daesh groups have power and influence is they are the closest thing to a functioning government in their areas of influence.

Sure... but, 'murrican (and the rest of the civilized world) can't stomach something like that now.

**Frazzled**

We can't fight an idea.

Thats one of the stupidest arguments ever. We fight ideas all the time, every day.

To be more extreme, we killed off far more powerful ideas in the idea of Nazis and the Greater Eastern Prosperity Sphere. The Romans were experts in killing off ideas, as were the Soviets.

**tneva82**

whembly wrote:
feeder wrote:
whembly wrote:

Just goes to show to not make any determination in the first few hours (or weeks). But, sometimes, if it walks like a duck...

So we can all agree that the War on Terror is an unwinnable farce?.

Nah... because we aren't in a true war.

If we used all our resources, there wouldn't be any Terrors alive to fight back.

So you would be killing every single people in arab and crapload outside as well?

Bombs NEVER fix problem. At best only change one problem to another.

**Frazzled**

tneva82 wrote:
whembly wrote:
feeder wrote:
whembly wrote:

Just goes to show to not make any determination in the first few hours (or weeks). But, sometimes, if it walks like a duck...

So we can all agree that the War on Terror is an unwinnable farce?.

Nah... because we aren't in a true war.

If we used all our resources, there wouldn't be any Terrors alive to fight back.

So you would be killing every single people in arab and crapload outside as well?

Bombs NEVER fix problem. At best only change one problem to another.

Its your view that "every single person in Arab" supports ISIL? If so how are they storming the gates of Vienna as we speak? Why do they need to kill thousands of people in the occupied areas to maintain control? Why are they in retreat?

**feeder**

Frazzled wrote:

We can't fight an idea.

Thats one of the stupidest arguments ever. We fight ideas all the time, every day.

To be more extreme, we killed off far more powerful ideas in the idea of Nazis and the Greater Eastern Prosperity Sphere.

No, we didn't kill those ideas. Racism and Colonialism are very much alive and well.

We don't have an overt white power terror network operating out of eastern Europe because after we annihilated their infrastructure, we went back in there and built in up again.

**Maniac_nmt**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
The CDC can and does collect data on firearms related incidents. Huge volumes of it. What it cannot do is undertake studies to recommend gun control solutions.

Spree killings are increasing, but overall killings are dramatically declining. Spree killings are ultimately rare events that dont kill huge numbers of people in the big picture but make a great big whopping news impact, and that may be a large driver of such behavior.

One will notice that when you could mail order a machine gun through the mail and have it delivered to your door across state lines without an FFL or background check, spree killings were almost nonexistent and limited to gangster on gangster stuff mostly. Something has changed socially such that people who wouldn't have dreamed of doing such a thing 90 years ago now find it a viable method of seeking vindication or whatever.

Media hype may have something to do with this. Ever since columbine every crazy person knows that the easiest way to get mass media recognition is to start shooting up a place with a lot of people.

Which should be somewhat surprising, as the worst attacks (not counting 9/11) in the US's history of this sort have not been gun related, but explosive related.

McVeigh and Oklahoma City killed 168 people and wounded over 680, LA Times bombing in 1910 killed 21 and injured 100, Wall Street bombing in the 20s which killed 38 and injured 400, the 96 Olympics with 2 dead and over 100 injured, and the Bath, Michigan attack in the 20s killed 45 and injured 58 being some of the more famous explosive based attacks (although I doubt many users have heard of any of these, or at least tend to forget about them).

However, it currently is a quick and easy 10 minutes of fame given the media hype. So, despite the ability to obtain or build home made explosive devices and their increased lethality the sensationalism of a gun attack probably does attract the crazies.

**Frazzled**

feeder wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

We can't fight an idea.

Thats one of the stupidest arguments ever. We fight ideas all the time, every day.

To be more extreme, we killed off far more powerful ideas in the idea of Nazis and the Greater Eastern Prosperity Sphere.

No, we didn't kill those ideas. Racism and Colonialism are very much alive and well.

We don't have an overt white power terror network operating out of eastern Europe because after we annihilated their infrastructure, we went back in there and built in up again.

Nazism is not racism. Please don't be droll.

Using this argument you should immediately burn yourself alive for being an infidel, because hey you can't fight an idea.

**feeder**

Frazzled wrote:

Nazism is not racism. Please don't be droll.

Technically you are correct, but you and I both know that racism is one of the central tenets of Nazi ideology. Please don't be pedantic

Using this argument you should immediately burn yourself alive for being an infidel, because hey you can't fight an idea.

Sorry chief, ya lost me here. What are you driving at?

**Frazzled**

feeder wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Nazism is not racism. Please don't be droll.

Technically you are correct, but you and I both know that racism is one of the central tenets of Nazi ideology. Please don't be pedantic

ONE TENET. Thats like reducing a whole social, economic, political, and military theory down to well racism...

Using this argument you should immediately burn yourself alive for being an infidel, because hey you can't fight an idea.

Sorry chief, ya lost me here. What are you driving at?

You're arguing you can't defeat an idea.

So getting back to the actual topic. Looks like lawyer nutjob. We need common sense lawyer control.

**feeder**

Frazzled wrote:
feeder wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Nazism is not racism. Please don't be droll.

Technically you are correct, but you and I both know that racism is one of the central tenets of Nazi ideology. Please don't be pedantic

ONE TENET. Thats like reducing a whole social, economic, political, and military theory down to well racism...

Using this argument you should immediately burn yourself alive for being an infidel, because hey you can't fight an idea.

Sorry chief, ya lost me here. What are you driving at?

You're arguing you can't defeat an idea.

Ah, I gotcha. I'm right, you can't win a war on an idea. Doesn't mean we are going to lose, it just will never end. A cynical man might argue this is the intention.

So getting back to the actual topic. Looks like lawyer nutjob. We need common sense lawyer control.

On this we agree. We need better controls on who has access to lawyers and harsh penalties for those who flout them.

**hotsauceman1**

Only law abiding citizens get lawyers?

**Formosa**

feeder wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
feeder wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Nazism is not racism. Please don't be droll.

Technically you are correct, but you and I both know that racism is one of the central tenets of Nazi ideology. Please don't be pedantic

ONE TENET. Thats like reducing a whole social, economic, political, and military theory down to well racism...

Using this argument you should immediately burn yourself alive for being an infidel, because hey you can't fight an idea.

Sorry chief, ya lost me here. What are you driving at?

You're arguing you can't defeat an idea.

Ah, I gotcha. I'm right, you can't win a war on an idea. Doesn't mean we are going to lose, it just will never end. A cynical man might argue this is the intention.

So getting back to the actual topic. Looks like lawyer nutjob. We need common sense lawyer control.

On this we agree. We need better controls on who has access to lawyers and harsh penalties for those who flout them.

you can win a war on an idea, its happened a lot in history, that's why all the mainstream western religions are based around the same single god concept, rather than the pantheons of old, basically you believe our version or die, so they slaughtered countless people to make sure there idea won, and the other idea lost.

**feeder**

We still have the ideas of a pantheon of gods around, some Eastern and most pagan religions include it.

You can't bomb an idea out of existence. Unless we are willing to "see if sand glows" we aren't going to stop terrorism by drone strikes and no-knock raids.

**Janthkin**

Back on topic, please. The spread of western religions ain't it.

**Co'tor Shas**

Some information about the shooter.
http://abc13.com/news/who-is-nathan-desai/1526983/

We're learning more about a Houston attorney whose vehicle was connected to a violent shooting Monday that injured nine people in southwest Houston.
The HPD bomb squad was in the process of searching Nathan DeSai's Porsche when Eyewitness News confirmed the vehicle was registered to him.
Now ABC News has learned that two guns and Nazi materials were found at the scene. ABC13 has confirmed that Nazi materials found inside the car registered to DeSai.
A source told abc13 the vehicle was filled with weapons, prompting officials to use a bomb robot to search the car.

We spoke with DeSai's father who said the attorney lived near Weslayan and Bissonnet, the site of this morning's shooting. He also confirmed the attorney drove a black Porsche.
DeSai was troubled by a downturn in business at his law office, his father said. When Eyewitness News went by the office, no one could be found.

His former law partner, Ken McDaniel, told Miya Shay the firm dissolved six months ago, but would not go into the reasons why.

DeSai's father says his son continued to represent clients, but worked out of his home.
After the shooting broke out, DeSai's father said he tried to contact his son.

So far, all he's heard is his voicemail message.

So he's a nazi.

**NinthMusketeer**

Vaktathi wrote:
...in response to perceived humiliations and a loss of place in the world that 50 years ago would have provided a different future.

If you were white and male.

**Orlanth**

Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
This case is odd, most spree killings are by underachievers, the odd exceptions are mostly political radicals.This guy appears to be neither. He drives a Porshe, has a transferable skill. What set his fuse, financial issues?

His law firm went under in February and the underlying Houston economy has been kicked in the babymaker by the worst energy recession in my memory.

Sure but he is a lawyer, he isnt going to have trouble finding work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

We can't fight an idea.

Thats one of the stupidest arguments ever. We fight ideas all the time, every day.

To be more extreme, we killed off far more powerful ideas in the idea of Nazis and the Greater Eastern Prosperity Sphere. The Romans were experts in killing off ideas, as were the Soviets.

I think what he is saying is that you cant entirely eradicate an ideology, without genocidal policies, and even that isn't assured.

The threats facing nowadays are so asymmetric that even a small remnant has the power to perpetuate discord.

**tneva82**

Orlanth wrote:
I think what he is saying is that you cant entirely eradicate an ideology, without genocidal policies, and even that isn't assured.

The threats facing nowadays are so asymmetric that even a small remnant has the power to perpetuate discord.

Japan tried to exterminate(as in kill) christianity from their country for centuries. Failed.

Terrorists can't be determined by sight so killing only all terrorists is going to fail. If you try to kill every muslim you would have to kill who knows how many, kill along non-muslims and likely STILL fail(see Japan's example...). And at that point you have become worse than the problem itself as you have killed lot more innocent people than terrorists have ever killed...

You don't fix the problem with bombs. Nazi's weren't got rid of by bombs but by fixing the reason they came into being in the first place. Had they simply been bombed and then be done they would have still come back(as it is they STILL exists...Yeah real good success with eradicating ideology there...)

**Frazzled**

Sure but he is a lawyer, he isnt going to have trouble finding work.

Thats an extremely incorrect statement in the US. We have a substantial surplus of bloodsuckers on this side of the pond.

**A Town Called Malus**

Frazzled wrote:

Sure but he is a lawyer, he isnt going to have trouble finding work.

Thats an extremely incorrect statement in the US. We have a substantial surplus of bloodsuckers on this side of the pond.

I think we do here, as well. Law was seen as a reliable money maker when it came to what to study so now we have a lot of people going to uni and studying Law but there not actually being enough demand for them afterwards, so you get massive competition for the few places and people with law degrees doing work which is really not making the most of their degree, if they manage to find work that is.

Not as bad as Forensic Science, though. The number of jobs in that field in the UK is tiny as most police forces and other organisations which make use of such technology no longer have their own unit but rather send it off to private companies, of which there are few. However there has been a huge surge in people studying it at university (the physical sciences department at my previous uni was basically kept afloat by a huge forensic science intake) so the competition for those few jobs is astronomical.

**Frazzled**

Per NPR this morning shooter had Nazi and "historical paraphernalia" either on him or at his residence.

**redleger**

Posts equating humans with dogs needing euthanasia are not appropriate for Dakka. Ever. --Janthkin