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Made in fi
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 Chute82 wrote:
I hope your claiming that $50 on your taxes

On a serious note $50 isn't worth it to me to be red flagged at a local group. Money can bring out the worst in people and just don't need drama in my life. If it's not an charity event I just avoid them all together.


$50 is peanuts especially in terms of GW games. Is peanuts worth unpleasant game? 40k doesn't work as a competive game anyway so pretending it is will just result in misery. Over peanuts...

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 DeffDred wrote:

More like "Fight at high noon! Bring weapons! Last man standing gets $50!" So he brought a gun and a box of ammo. Everyone else showed up with bats and knives and is complaining that they couldn't afford guns.

The metaphor still misses the point, I feel, because it puts too much emphasis on the prize money. As far as this hobby is concerned, nobody's actually turning a profit playing games. We all spend way more money than we could ever hope to recoup with our winnings (unless your particular playgroup has some serious gambling-on-the-side going on, or you're competing in some underground Dubai billionaire wargaming league).

The supply does not get to make the demands. 
   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Chute82 wrote:
I hope your claiming that $50 on your taxes

On a serious note $50 isn't worth it to me to be red flagged at a local group. Money can bring out the worst in people and just don't need drama in my life. If it's not an charity event I just avoid them all together.


$50 is peanuts especially in terms of GW games. Is peanuts worth unpleasant game? 40k doesn't work as a competive game anyway so pretending it is will just result in misery. Over peanuts...


I fully agree. I just think the OP is just trying to make an excuse for being an arse. Simple as that. We all do it, just accept what you did, and make sure you don't do it again and no more being an arse. Stop making excuses. Simple as that.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

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Made in ca
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

I don't think a list makes someone as ass. Continually bringing such a list despite being politely and repeatedly told people are becoming tired and annoyed of playing against it, and it being such an outlier to the rest of the group's style of play, would make them an ass.

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Gathering the Informations.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Or in other words, if there is a prize why not bring the best?
Ok, so some context. Despite me not being that big intothe tournament scene and being mediocre at best, I have a reputation as a hardcore tournament player at my FLGS.
So, every month is a leaque, wherethe winner can get 50$ in cash if he/she wins. I have finally gotten an uninteruppted month of being able to go. So I went in with what I could fit at 1250, riptide wing and a stormsurge. My opponents than give me ALL the gak and start saying stuff. Stuff like "We are casual here, we play for fluff not to win" and the usual stuff. I then tell them "It is a game, with a winner and a loser, why should I not bring my best? You are welcome to bring your best aswell" and they then say they cant afford money to win and so forth.
So I ask, why should I not bring my best to this event if I there is money involved?

Bringing your best isn't the same as bringing a Riptide Wing and a Stormsurge at 1250.

how is it not? I could fit those in the list, so i brought my best 1250 is more than enough.

Because the number of armies which can reliably handle a GMC is outshone by the number of armies that can deal with a Riptide Wing, let alone both of those, at 1250 points.
   
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Ok, so I brought something that is toughtto fight, I still dont see the problem here. if the objective of a game is to win, why not bring something that facilitate winning?

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, so I brought something that is toughtto fight, I still dont see the problem here. if the objective of a game is to win, why not bring something that facilitate winning?

You said you play/hang out regularly with these people, yeah?

The objective, within a community, is not strictly to win a game but to facilitate enjoyment for both parties.

You didn't just bring something that is "tough to fight", you brought two somethings that for some codices? It's not just "tough to fight", it's virtually impossible for them to fight it within the constraints of 1250 points.

And putting it rather bluntly? It seems like the reason you're here on Dakka talking about this, rather than discussing it on a more local to you venue is that you want the validation of having done the right thing here when you know what you did was a jerk move.
   
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Canada

 Peregrine wrote:
 Jimsolo wrote:
If it's an event with a prize, it's competitive. If it's competitive, play to win. Period.
This. If you don't want people to bring competitive lists and play competitively then don't have a cash prize. And make explicit rules for list building, don't just whine about how "we play for fun".
100% agree.
The entire reason to play competitively with a prize is to pick the best you can for a win within the rules as written.
Not some nebulous ideas of "fair play" that fall outside of RAW.
By that "casual gaming" mindset, the guy who lost all his games "wins" because he had the good grace to nerf his army appropriately.

Plus, playing to the utmost we all get to know our rules cold, you have the pleasure of a fierce fight on our hands, the "gaming bullies" are too afraid to play since there are no victims to be found, most players play with good grace: you do not get proficient without losing a few times, you can learn a lot of interesting tricks to the game... it is all good.

So, fielding a Riptide wing and Stormsurge in a competition setting is being TFG... everyone else can do that too or play something even "worse" since it is allowed as per the rules what is the problem?
Say this is the BEST formation out there of all time, field a "hard counter" to it.
But maybe your opponent knows you could play that "hard counter" so he makes his army a little different to combat that.
This is what playing at your best is all about, don't be a scrub and read this: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win.

Competition to win is not a bad thing.
I approach this religiously with my taxes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/07 17:37:30


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 Jimsolo wrote:
If it's an event with a prize, it's competitive. If it's competitive, play to win. Period.
Yep. I don't like that style of competitive environment, so rarely play in that sort of setting and perfer the casual atmosphere a league or w/e with a nominal prize creates, but if I do something with cash, you can sure bet I'll enter to win.


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tneva82 wrote:
 Chute82 wrote:
I hope your claiming that $50 on your taxes

On a serious note $50 isn't worth it to me to be red flagged at a local group. Money can bring out the worst in people and just don't need drama in my life. If it's not an charity event I just avoid them all together.


$50 is peanuts especially in terms of GW games. Is peanuts worth unpleasant game? 40k doesn't work as a competive game anyway so pretending it is will just result in misery. Over peanuts...


50 bones is still 50 bones. Clearly, what you would do for a Klondike bar is much different than what I would do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Davor wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Chute82 wrote:
I hope your claiming that $50 on your taxes

On a serious note $50 isn't worth it to me to be red flagged at a local group. Money can bring out the worst in people and just don't need drama in my life. If it's not an charity event I just avoid them all together.


$50 is peanuts especially in terms of GW games. Is peanuts worth unpleasant game? 40k doesn't work as a competive game anyway so pretending it is will just result in misery. Over peanuts...


I fully agree. I just think the OP is just trying to make an excuse for being an arse. Simple as that. We all do it, just accept what you did, and make sure you don't do it again and no more being an arse. Stop making excuses. Simple as that.


Going to a prize supported event with the desire to get that prize is being an arse now? Damn. I would just say that now he knows what everyone is looking for in the league to tone it down, but going after the prize on day 1? Wow. I need to reevaluate my whole life.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/07 17:37:00


 
   
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It's a COMPETITION, dude. Same first three letters as in COMBAT. If you're a finely-tuned pro warhammer athlete and they're a bunch of weakling scrubs...they should just feel lucky you don't steal their miniatures and girlfriends after you're done whomping on them.

Wooooooo!






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 Kanluwen wrote:
The objective, within a community, is not strictly to win a game but to facilitate enjoyment for both parties.
What is the primary means of facilitating enjoyment for both parties in a war-game setting?
Most people would agree a "close game" is the ideal, it can go either way, it is not a predetermined outcome: worst case is a "tabling".
If we both agree to "bring our best" it should be awesome.
As soon as you decide on a judgement call on what is "fair" not based on rules, you are lessening the experience and making it virtually impossible to create a close match.
Unless you both agree to field the exact same army that is not the best you can field, it is a doomed game in regards to fun.

I think I am feeling old.
Most competitions have the 1st place trophy or to be nice the gold-silver-bronze.
It sounds like some people want to get very stern with the people holding the tournament not handing out participation trophies "because we are all winners!!".
I am being rather pushy with this observation because it would have been far too easy for me to have sat back and been happy with what the world handed me.
Competition provides personal improvement and not just letting others take from me without a "fight".
I am seeing this being played out rather badly with my children where when they lose, it is a rage inducing event... it does not need to be, it can be a learning thing and to be taken with some measure of grace.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/07 18:05:08


A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
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It's not about the money.

It's about sending a message.
   
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Philadelphia

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Despite me not being that big intothe tournament scene and being mediocre at best, I have a reputation as a hardcore tournament player at my FLGS.


If you want to farm casual players for prizes - you can. Just make sure you're a nice charismatic guy about it - and bring a beautifully painted force. Be an example of a veteran player as you run your list. Just make sure it's not the three coat minimum or proxy models. I've went to tournaments simply to play three or four games with new players - and win best painted every event.


Davor wrote:
I fully agree. I just think the OP is just trying to make an excuse for being an arse. Simple as that. We all do it, just accept what you did, and make sure you don't do it again and no more being an arse. Stop making excuses. Simple as that.


I've lurking Dakka Dakka for a 5-6 years - Hotsauce's few year evolution from store kid to fairly large tournament guy has created one of the most interesting post histories I've ever read. At least the Pony phase is finished

HSM - Play in the league - just set a good example. Who knows - you may get defeated by another well painted local tournament player who joins in this week

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/07 18:46:19


   
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 Talizvar wrote:
I think I am feeling old.
Most competitions have the 1st place trophy or to be nice the gold-silver-bronze.
It sounds like some people want to get very stern with the people holding the tournament not handing out participation trophies "because we are all winners!!".
I am being rather pushy with this observation because it would have been far too easy for me to have sat back and been happy with what the world handed me.
Competition provides personal improvement and not just letting others take from me without a "fight".
I am seeing this being played out rather badly with my children where when they lose, it is a rage inducing event... it does not need to be, it can be a learning thing and to be taken with some measure of grace.


Actually, when I play a board game or something like that with my kids, I find that there's a lot less rage and poor sportsmanship when I set the expectation that we're not taking it too seriously. That we're all trying to win, but explain that it's only a BOARD GAME, and that we're playing to have some laughs and easygoing fun.

My oldest has other outlets -- Little League, tae kwon do -- where things get a little more serious (although not too bad at his age) and there's more pressure on him. My younger son will start LL next year too and be introduced to organized team play and all that entails. But everything isn't life-or-death or a life lesson for them, and I don't think it should be. In other words, I think it's just as important to introduce the concept of perspective. There are times and places for things.

It is possible to be *that guy* by showing up to an event meant to be relaxed and treating it like warfare.



Remember him? The a-hole character? Do that...and you're him.


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Jacksmiles wrote:
It's not about the money.

It's about sending a message.


Hey 20 bucks is 20 bucks, just ask Griffith from Berserk


For me I guess it would depends on the setting. If it was a store of TFG's hell yeah i'd try to curb stomp them even if they where screaming ' DUDE TOTALLY CASUAL HERE!!!' because TFG's. If it was a group of friends who play at a store it would depend.
   
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It really depends on the league. A league meant to get new players into the game would mean, "dont bring nasty stuff", and the second there is prize support that isnt something that doesnt support new players, (ei paints? paint brushes? basing material? even a small amount of gift card cash? a store could very, very easily charge the players for a portion of this and still profit while having prize support that targets its audience.) but like $50 dollars to only the top guy really, really discourages casual entry. The reason for the prize is to sort of 'formalize' the event, and if its only going to the top guy, then there is only reason to try your absolute best. In fact, there really isnt a reason to play more rounds after you lose due to there only being one prize, so in order to have the most amount of fun, you would try to bring the list that would allow you to play the most amount of rounds by winning more often. Another facet of this thinking would be to also bring the strongest list to counter anything that would table you, or at least be able to take on and deal with anything overly nasty other players might bring to ruin your day. Its literally just trying to play in the single prize league logically, and there is no reason to not bring your best. Even if its obvious that you will table the opponent, you can play sort of underhandedly or make mistakes in order to make the game a little more fun for your opponent, but it is incredibly difficult to try to compensate a weak list against some of the nasty stuff other players might bring. I mean, I guess a league isnt a real tournament, so going too hard would be sorta looked down on, so personally I always ask the organizer if my list is okay to bring, if I can summon or if I should tone it down or whatever, but I guess the biggest point is to clearly have the intention to have fun and not treat the game like beating up nerds and shoving them into lockers by bringing the most broken list around, that you know will dominate entirely.
   
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The problem with clubbing baby seals is that eventually the seals stop coming to the beach you're at.

I love to play competitively, but I know enough to break out the nerf for the groups that can't (or won't) play hardball. I'd use that as an opportunity to play fluff bunny armies.

If they decide they want to try playing competitively, that's when I'd happily break out the tournament army and take them to school.

   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, so I brought something that is toughtto fight, I still dont see the problem here. if the objective of a game is to win, why not bring something that facilitate winning?

You said you play/hang out regularly with these people, yeah?

The objective, within a community, is not strictly to win a game but to facilitate enjoyment for both parties.

You didn't just bring something that is "tough to fight", you brought two somethings that for some codices? It's not just "tough to fight", it's virtually impossible for them to fight it within the constraints of 1250 points.

And putting it rather bluntly? It seems like the reason you're here on Dakka talking about this, rather than discussing it on a more local to you venue is that you want the validation of having done the right thing here when you know what you did was a jerk move.


It isn't all that often I find myself agreeing with Kanluwen - but this is one of those times.

Hit the nail square on the head.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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In general I think there's a difference between playing "hardcore" when it demands it (e.g. a tournament or a cutthroat scene) and not. It's a jerk move to go to an event, even one with a prize, where you know most people are casual/laid back and bring a hardcore list, doubly so if you intentionally do it because you know you won't face opposition. This is why I firmly believe that you tailor what you do based on your opponents, and/or if that fails choose your opponents. So competitive players don't play casual ones (assuming they know they are casual), and vice versa so you don't get someone expecting a fun casual game and gets steamrolled by a tournament-caliber list, and don't have someone bringing a tournament-caliber list to a casual event because they know that the "scrubs" won't be expecting it.

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 Dysartes wrote:

It isn't all that often I find myself agreeing with Kanluwen - but this is one of those times.

Hit the nail square on the head.


It's a weird feeling isn't it?

Prestor Jon wrote:
Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
 
   
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I'm facing the same problem right now. This is the third phase of league play, 1500, 1750 and now 2250 and its bring anything with rules. The last two had restrictions and allowed much more friendly play, but now the gloves are off and the titans are coming out. (I'm not joking about the titan part.) I played two games so far and absolutely killed my opponents. The last game I played the tau player brought 3 rip tides and a stormsurge. A great list, but I think there could have been some tactical choices on his part which would had made it a much better game. (We had an after action report which I believe only made him stronger and gave him some tactical tools to use.) From what I have heard, the players in this league are bringing their best, I just so happen to come across some who were looking for more friendly games, which I can't fault at all. I never know who I'm going to be facing so I'm prepared for the worst of it all.

 
   
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So the gist of this thread is the debate on whether this is a wargame or a board game? I wonder if anyone has ever take a Snotling Horde to a tourney or competitive league.

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The big thing that while it's not 'wrong' when it comes to WAAC players and especially tournament/prize hounds. They tend to be people with income to chase the meta. Army x is powerful, they go out and buy Army x, slap paint on, base it, and go and win. Army Y gets an update and is suddenly better, his Army X is on ebay the next day and he shows up with Army Y.

There was a guy I gamed against fairly often, and from month to month, year to year he had a different army tailored to whatever was the 'best' at the time.

If you are a normal person though with a normal income that kind of buy, cut bait, and buy again style isn't feasible and it breeds a certain jealousy. This is especially true for people just getting started. Especially the 'first time out kid' that shows up with a starter set contents of Marines, and maybe another tank, with upgrades stretched way out to meet the points limit.

Normal gamer person isn't going to have a full knight titan army for example, or FW pieces, or a Riptide wing and a Stormsurge.

Hope that helps. I'll admit once I scrapped up enough to roll into a tourney and lay the hurt. I did it too. (Eldar Wraithlords! Chaos 3.5! etc.)

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 gorgon wrote:
My oldest has other outlets -- Little League, tae kwon do -- where things get a little more serious (although not too bad at his age) and there's more pressure on him. My younger son will start LL next year too and be introduced to organized team play and all that entails. But everything isn't life-or-death or a life lesson for them, and I don't think it should be. In other words, I think it's just as important to introduce the concept of perspective. There are times and places for things.

It is possible to be *that guy* by showing up to an event meant to be relaxed and treating it like warfare.
The trick is, out of all that you say above, can you not expect you and your kids to do their "best"?
I want to see them try, otherwise it is not fair to their team and their skills do not improve if not giving it an honest go.
I can compare all the stuff my kids do but really, they have a variety of outlets and are not mini "TFG" in waiting.
I find the online gaming is the one I hear the most carrying on about due to "dishonorable" opponent behavior.
I played chess competitively as a kid.
I liked the guys who beat me, it made me learn more, when I eventually won against them, I would say they inspired me to get better and it was heart-felt.
But not everything is casual or a non-learning event, and I don't think it should be. In other words, there is a time and place for things (see what I did there?).

To proclaim "I am only playing for fun" is any number of strange messages: "I am playing casual so a win from me kinda doesn't count because I am not doing my best." or "I am playing an RPG dressed as a warfare, come role-play with me!" or maybe "I will do my best and be happy for the competition."

So in context, playing a tournament, doing your best would be a reasonable expectation.
To "throttle back" with rules outside of game rules unless agreed to with your opponent is playing a different game and not being fair to your opponent.

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 Just Tony wrote:
So the gist of this thread is the debate on whether this is a wargame or a board game? I wonder if anyone has ever take a Snotling Horde to a tourney or competitive league.


No?

This gist, after reading the full thread, is more "Did bringing something heavy in a small points game make me TFG in a league with a $50 prize?" Depending on the view point, it can go either way.

I'm more interested in the $50 now. Was it just a 5 dollar fee collected from the ten players to play the games, or was it put up by the organizer and the league was free? The former way, makes it so it's sort of an incentive, but it's more of a bonus for coming and playing with everyone. The latter is incentive to bring good lists that will stomp your friends, even for just $50.

I don't know if we're getting the full story, but either way, Hotsauce should probably be a bit more careful in later leagues in this group, lest he get labeled the Tautide Bringer. Or something to that effect if the community is more relaxed.

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It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
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Of course you try and do your best - you play to win. But that doesn't mean restrictions and unspoken conventions about what is acceptable and fair behavior don't also apply.

Is it fair for a heavyweight fighter to pound on a welterweight? Just because money is involved - somehow that makes it fair or okay? It's competition after all? I don't buy that at all.

The other league members likely felt like lightweights, wanting to play in a lightweight league. Bringing heavyweight lists to a lightweight fight is definitely gonna cause some hurt feelings.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/09 19:33:40


   
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The thing is, validation online wont help when everyone you play against ends up refusing to play you.

Prestor Jon wrote:
Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
 
   
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 MrDwhitey wrote:
The thing is, validation online wont help when everyone you play against ends up refusing to play you.


MrDwhitey is wise.

There are 2 sides to every story, and there is no one here that can say you're a TFG or did just fine.

The true answer will be in the coming weeks when you return for casual play and the regulars accept you with open arms or tell you to pound salt.

You make your own choices in life, and you also pay the price for those choices.

How you live with those consequences is up to you.

This video sums everything up. Listen to the story.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/09 22:21:49


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I'm indecisive. I see both sides.

Money --> win.

But.... are the league rules & expectations explicit?

I guess - talk to the TO - see what he or she says - and pass that on to everyone else.
   
 
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