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 Mr Morden wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I think it should be pointed out that the Wolves are also not compliant in terms of numbers. Their limited recruiting pool and rather harsh induction process keeps them from growing super large, but they aren't restricted to chapter strength. So, while the historic Black Templars are definitely the largest chapter, the Wolves are probably second.

Of course that ignores the successor chapter games played by Dark Angels and others. An amalgam of chapters is going to be larger than a single non-compliant one.

Thank you for a totally sterile contribution to the discussion.

Both the Black Templars and the Wolves have now been changed to be much smaller in strength - both about 1500 Marines in their last codex.

This despite the Wolves then being stated to use vast numbers of warships that they are now too small in number to properly utilise even with servitors and thralls.

The vast majority of starships in an astartes fleet, across all chapters, have next to no actual astartes crew. The astartes they do carry are intended for boarding and repelling boarders with maybe a temporary captain position. "But a Battle Barge can carry 300!" Yes, can and usually doesn't. That's thy number for transporting them from one battle to another, not manning the ship. As for the actual crew, usually only the original human members and a few replacements are actually from the chapter's homeworld. The rest, especially anyone not serving on the bridge, was born and raised on the ship itself.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I think an even more fun proposal would be a full Tyranid Hive Fleet versus Fenris.

I think a full Tyranid Hive Fleet vs. any one particular world and it's a win for the Hive Fleet, honestly. The only reason Tyranids get defeated at all is because Hive Fleets tend to spread out among many worlds at a time. Kraken was barely stopped at Macragge because it had to deal with all of Ultramar along the way, not to mention Sector Fleets.

jareddm wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I think it should be pointed out that the Wolves are also not compliant in terms of numbers. Their limited recruiting pool and rather harsh induction process keeps them from growing super large, but they aren't restricted to chapter strength. So, while the historic Black Templars are definitely the largest chapter, the Wolves are probably second.

Of course that ignores the successor chapter games played by Dark Angels and others. An amalgam of chapters is going to be larger than a single non-compliant one.

Thank you for a totally sterile contribution to the discussion.

Both the Black Templars and the Wolves have now been changed to be much smaller in strength - both about 1500 Marines in their last codex.

This despite the Wolves then being stated to use vast numbers of warships that they are now too small in number to properly utilise even with servitors and thralls.

The vast majority of starships in an astartes fleet, across all chapters, have next to no actual astartes crew. The astartes they do carry are intended for boarding and repelling boarders with maybe a temporary captain position. "But a Battle Barge can carry 300!" Yes, can and usually doesn't. That's thy number for transporting them from one battle to another, not manning the ship. As for the actual crew, usually only the original human members and a few replacements are actually from the chapter's homeworld. The rest, especially anyone not serving on the bridge, was born and raised on the ship itself.

Away from my books but I thought BFG said that an escort normally had half a dozen Marines and capital vessel larger which would mean that unless the Wolves keep most of their vessels in reserve, more than half the Chapters fighting strength is on those hundred plus ships - and that's not even mentioning massive Star Forts.

IF they had kept the Wolves (and Templars) full strength vague and not given the Wolves such a vast fleet it would have been more palatable I think.

I suppose the main factor in this fight would be the Templar's true chapter strength, which...GW hasn't flat out said their true numbers ever since their 4th edition codex. Aside from the horrible reference (IMO) that is Eternal Crusader which in itself vaguely talks about their chapter size and simply skirted around true numbers. One of the only other current references we have is the Angels of Death codex supplement. Which...GW has again alluded explaining their true size and out of all the chapters depicted in the book, theirs is the only one that doesn't show the full chapter and simply shows us the build of what a typical crusade looks like. They did say...Their companies are scattered across numerous crusades. They further stated: A typical crusade has hundreds of battle brothers and support elements. Which all lends to the fact that...It's anyone's guess how big they really are.

I take it nobody has read Warzone Fenris?
When that ended the Dark Angels had a ship sitting just outside Fenris' orbit ready to hit them with an exterminatus. Pretty sure that's close enough for an exterminatus.

Depends on when the Templar decided to attack. Heavily armed as it is the Wolves have a tendency to leave the Fang under manned which is why the Fang has been wrecked twice so far and is in jeopardy of a third blasting. Circumstances have always stopped it being captured, defensively it has probably been improved after every incident but if plot armour didn't interfere the Templar could probably wreck it again.
As for numbers the Wolves are actually one of the smaller first founding chapters, their limited recruiting pool, their high rate of fatality in the acolyte trials and their habit of going in search of fights has cropped them back pretty hard. The Wulfen numbers have never really been stated but it seems the Wolves picked up around nine packs of them adding something between 45 and 90 to their numbers.

Actually taking the Fang sits in the realms of impossibility mostly due to Fenris being impossible to land an army on. Nobody would bother though because destroying the Fang outright would be infinitely easier.

Which is strange because despite making Daemon weapons specifically for that the Thousand Sons didn't manage to do that.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Actually taking the Fang sits in the realms of impossibility mostly due to Fenris being impossible to land an army on. Nobody would bother though because destroying the Fang outright would be infinitely easier.

But think of all the shinies in the Fang! Treasures, ancient weapons from the Space Wolf armories, the defense armaments themself...

And I guess that's one reason the IoM hasn't destroyed the SW yet - they're headstrong and rebellious but for the most part put all their resources towards defeating the enemies of mankind. Founding and equipping new Chapters to replace them would be horrendously expensive. Yes, I said new Chapters - the SW might not be too badly overstrength at 1500 or so but the amount of power weapons, arcane wargear, fleet vessels etc etc they possess would make them the equivalent of all too many later-founding Chapters. Replacing them would strain the production capabilities of the Empire at a time when it's already stretched to the limits.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

They hold everything in the Fenris system.

Generally speaking the home worlds of Space Marine Legions get protected pretty well. It's hardly special treatment.

Fair enough.

If I recall correctly the Fang is stated to be the second greatest fortress (after Terra) in the Imperium. And that is special treatment.

And that is what I dont get. The fang is a tower. A tower defended by 1 space marine legion(although much smaller than the 30k legions)

How is that a stronger position than say Mars, which has an entire orbital ring bristling with defenses. Mars, home of the largest fleet in the galaxy. Mars home of one of the largest titan legions. Crawling with skittari. Literally trillions of bodies ready for war with the entire planet covered in factories that can make more weapons of war. At this point I am having trouble beleiving that even Terra is a stronger fortress than Mars, but hey Terra does have the Custodies.

 Exergy wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

They hold everything in the Fenris system.

Generally speaking the home worlds of Space Marine Legions get protected pretty well. It's hardly special treatment.

Fair enough.

If I recall correctly the Fang is stated to be the second greatest fortress (after Terra) in the Imperium. And that is special treatment.

And that is what I dont get. The fang is a tower. A tower defended by 1 space marine legion(although much smaller than the 30k legions)

How is that a stronger position than say Mars, which has an entire orbital ring bristling with defenses. Mars, home of the largest fleet in the galaxy. Mars home of one of the largest titan legions. Crawling with skittari. Literally trillions of bodies ready for war with the entire planet covered in factories that can make more weapons of war. At this point I am having trouble beleiving that even Terra is a stronger fortress than Mars, but hey Terra does have the Custodies.

Mars is not a fortress. It is a planet focused on production rather than defense. The Fang is a fortress, the Imperial Palace is a fortress. Mars is a planet.

 Exergy wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

They hold everything in the Fenris system.

Generally speaking the home worlds of Space Marine Legions get protected pretty well. It's hardly special treatment.

Fair enough.

If I recall correctly the Fang is stated to be the second greatest fortress (after Terra) in the Imperium. And that is special treatment.

And that is what I dont get. The fang is a tower. A tower defended by 1 space marine legion(although much smaller than the 30k legions)

How is that a stronger position than say Mars, which has an entire orbital ring bristling with defenses. Mars, home of the largest fleet in the galaxy. Mars home of one of the largest titan legions. Crawling with skittari. Literally trillions of bodies ready for war with the entire planet covered in factories that can make more weapons of war. At this point I am having trouble beleiving that even Terra is a stronger fortress than Mars, but hey Terra does have the Custodies.

You aren't describing a fortress. You're describing a planet. There's a difference.

Best way to take the Fang? Send a few sacrificial ships to occupy the defense network attention then kill the rest of Fenris' population. Give it a hundred or so years and the Space Wolves will be working with a skeleton crew.

That doesn't really work. They have people inside the Fang to work everything.

People inside the Fang are servitors who survived their trials but still failed-effectively chemically castrated thralls and Space Wolves marines - despite having old members the Space Wolves have a high mortality rate-Bjorn is woken up every century and most Blood Claws never meet him, you become a Grey Hunter for surviving more than one hundred years. It can happen sooner but with the exception of Lukas Strifeson level pain in the butt the hundred year mark is a guaranteed promotion.

Kill everything outside of the Fang and then what's left inside will quickly die off because they can't reproduce or replenish their numbers without Fenrisian bloodlines, Space Wolves are noted for being cunning fighters but they're also known for their inability to choose fights wisely, they will continue to pick crazy fights, suffer heavy losses and eventually disappear...maybe I'm being a bit harsh with a hundred years maybe a hundred and fifty years.

Your plan would also require Fenris to not be restocked with hardy death-world humans (who could then be used to replenish Space Wolf ranks) in those 150+ years.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
People inside the Fang are servitors who survived their trials but still failed-effectively chemically castrated thralls and Space Wolves marines - despite having old members the Space Wolves have a high mortality rate-Bjorn is woken up every century and most Blood Claws never meet him, you become a Grey Hunter for surviving more than one hundred years. It can happen sooner but with the exception of Lukas Strifeson level pain in the butt the hundred year mark is a guaranteed promotion.

Kill everything outside of the Fang and then what's left inside will quickly die off because they can't reproduce or replenish their numbers without Fenrisian bloodlines, Space Wolves are noted for being cunning fighters but they're also known for their inability to choose fights wisely, they will continue to pick crazy fights, suffer heavy losses and eventually disappear...maybe I'm being a bit harsh with a hundred years maybe a hundred and fifty years.

There are normal people inside as well as Servitors. If they're stuck in the Fang then the Marines aren't going to be dying are they?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Best way to take the Fang? Send a few sacrificial ships to occupy the defense network attention then kill the rest of Fenris' population. Give it a hundred or so years and the Space Wolves will be working with a skeleton crew.

Present fluff suggests they have a void born population of thralls etc in the multiple millions - if only to keep their multiple Ramilies class Starforts and hundred plus warships manned. I assume these are or originally were) Fenris born but I don't know.

I am confused, are the black templars are around 5000-6000 marines?

~Mikey

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I am confused, are the black templars are around 5000-6000 marines?

~Mikey

No. This is a rumor that has never been true. Even their highest old estimates maxed out at less than that. By Guy Haley's word, confirmed by the codex, the Black Templar are still larger than a standard chapter but number less than 2,000.

I stand corrected.
The Fang defenses are manned by Imperial Guard. Scource doesn't say if they're Fenrisian stock or not but I'd assume they are...now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Most Space Marine home worlds are excempt from tithing (because they're useless anyway) and the Psykers are kept in check by the Chapter either burning them, recruiting them or asking the Black Ships to stop by every 20 years to just pick them up.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Most Space Marine home worlds are excempt from tithing (because they're useless anyway) and the Psykers are kept in check by the Chapter either burning them, recruiting them or asking the Black Ships to stop by every 20 years to just pick them up.

So you don't think many or any Guard would be Fenrisian?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I stand corrected.
The Fang defenses are manned by Imperial Guard. Scource doesn't say if they're Fenrisian stock or not but I'd assume they are...now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Whats the source for the Guard manning the Fang? That seems highly unlikely - Armed Thralls - yep, actual gaurdsmen - hmm seems to be counter to the Wolves fluff?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I stand corrected.
The Fang defenses are manned by Imperial Guard. Scource doesn't say if they're Fenrisian stock or not but I'd assume they are...now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Whats the source for the Guard manning the Fang? That seems highly unlikely - Armed Thralls - yep, actual gaurdsmen - hmm seems to be counter to the Wolves fluff?

In Battle of the Fang it's manned by Fenrisians who are generally born there not Guard. I assume its the same thing.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I stand corrected.
The Fang defenses are manned by Imperial Guard. Scource doesn't say if they're Fenrisian stock or not but I'd assume they are...now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Whats the source for the Guard manning the Fang? That seems highly unlikely - Armed Thralls - yep, actual gaurdsmen - hmm seems to be counter to the Wolves fluff?

In Battle of the Fang it's manned by Fenrisians who are generally born there not Guard. I assume its the same thing.

Thanks

Fenris does not have a PDF (or did not previously)

Armed thralls/ natives are hugely different to the Guard being on planet.

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I stand corrected.
The Fang defenses are manned by Imperial Guard. Scource doesn't say if they're Fenrisian stock or not but I'd assume they are...now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Whats the source for the Guard manning the Fang? That seems highly unlikely - Armed Thralls - yep, actual gaurdsmen - hmm seems to be counter to the Wolves fluff?

In Battle of the Fang it's manned by Fenrisians who are generally born there not Guard. I assume its the same thing.

Thanks

Fenris does not have a PDF (or did not previously)

Armed thralls/ natives are hugely different to the Guard being on planet.

In fairness the thralls seemed to serve as a fairly competent PDF so they're comparable to Guard if not actual Guardsmen.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I stand corrected.
The Fang defenses are manned by Imperial Guard. Scource doesn't say if they're Fenrisian stock or not but I'd assume they are...now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Whats the source for the Guard manning the Fang? That seems highly unlikely - Armed Thralls - yep, actual gaurdsmen - hmm seems to be counter to the Wolves fluff?

In Battle of the Fang it's manned by Fenrisians who are generally born there not Guard. I assume its the same thing.

Thanks

Fenris does not have a PDF (or did not previously)

Armed thralls/ natives are hugely different to the Guard being on planet.

In fairness the thralls seemed to serve as a fairly competent PDF so they're comparable to Guard if not actual Guardsmen.

All Chapters have armed serfs to defend vehicles, spaceships and fortresses. They are easily better than the Guard since a Space Marine chapter can afford all kinds of fancy equipment and enhancements for its forces that the Guard can only dream about. Not to mention the fact that Space Marines are undoubtedly going to have extremely demanding recruitment standards for their forces.
Space Wolf chapter serfs are most likely to be either Fenrisian or voidborn since chapter serfs normally become chapter serfs by being born as one, and Fenris and space are where most serfs are located.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I stand corrected.
The Fang defenses are manned by Imperial Guard. Scource doesn't say if they're Fenrisian stock or not but I'd assume they are...now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Whats the source for the Guard manning the Fang? That seems highly unlikely - Armed Thralls - yep, actual gaurdsmen - hmm seems to be counter to the Wolves fluff?

In Battle of the Fang it's manned by Fenrisians who are generally born there not Guard. I assume its the same thing.

Thanks

Fenris does not have a PDF (or did not previously)

Armed thralls/ natives are hugely different to the Guard being on planet.

In fairness the thralls seemed to serve as a fairly competent PDF so they're comparable to Guard if not actual Guardsmen.

All Chapters have armed serfs to defend vehicles, spaceships and fortresses. They are easily better than the Guard since a Space Marine chapter can afford all kinds of fancy equipment and enhancements for its forces that the Guard can only dream about. Not to mention the fact that Space Marines are undoubtedly going to have extremely demanding recruitment standards for their forces.
Space Wolf chapter serfs are most likely to be either Fenrisian or voidborn since chapter serfs normally become chapter serfs by being born as one, and Fenris and space are where most serfs are located.

So the Space Wolves do have Fenrisians seperated from the tribal culture and educated...I wonder if they get as many chances to become Space Wolves as the tribesmen do?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I stand corrected.
The Fang defenses are manned by Imperial Guard. Scource doesn't say if they're Fenrisian stock or not but I'd assume they are...now I'm curious about how a tribal world like Fenris pays Imperial tributes like Psykers and Guard.

Whats the source for the Guard manning the Fang? That seems highly unlikely - Armed Thralls - yep, actual gaurdsmen - hmm seems to be counter to the Wolves fluff?

In Battle of the Fang it's manned by Fenrisians who are generally born there not Guard. I assume its the same thing.

Thanks

Fenris does not have a PDF (or did not previously)

Armed thralls/ natives are hugely different to the Guard being on planet.

In fairness the thralls seemed to serve as a fairly competent PDF so they're comparable to Guard if not actual Guardsmen.

All Chapters have armed serfs to defend vehicles, spaceships and fortresses. They are easily better than the Guard since a Space Marine chapter can afford all kinds of fancy equipment and enhancements for its forces that the Guard can only dream about. Not to mention the fact that Space Marines are undoubtedly going to have extremely demanding recruitment standards for their forces.
Space Wolf chapter serfs are most likely to be either Fenrisian or voidborn since chapter serfs normally become chapter serfs by being born as one, and Fenris and space are where most serfs are located.

So the Space Wolves do have Fenrisians seperated from the tribal culture and educated...I wonder if they get as many chances to become Space Wolves as the tribesmen do?

No they don't, SW probably don't even recruit from them. The reason why barbarian-age civilisations like the planetary fenrisians are maintained in this state is precisely because they produce perfect candidates for SM chapters.

Lol. Didnt the Space Wolves fight off a combined army of Grey Knights and the Inquisition that were coming for them with doubts of their loyalty? If they fought them off i dont see much hope for other marines.

BUt from what i read lots of people heavily underestimate the stubborness of a son of Dorn. BLack templars rival if not surpass the stubbornness of the Wolves... i think the Templars would be able to make planetfall and make it in to the SW stronghold... but there i think it ends. In close combat strength the SW surpass the sons of Dorn if you ask me.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Lol. Didnt the Space Wolves fight off a combined army of Grey Knights and the Inquisition that were coming for them with doubts of their loyalty? If they fought them off i dont see much hope for other marines.

BUt from what i read lots of people heavily underestimate the stubborness of a son of Dorn. BLack templars rival if not surpass the stubbornness of the Wolves... i think the Templars would be able to make planetfall and make it in to the SW stronghold... but there i think it ends. In close combat strength the SW surpass the sons of Dorn if you ask me.

As I remember the fight was cut short when Bjorn yelled at everyone. So it's not the best measure.