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 Spinner wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
This, right here, is bullgak. Since I'm a guy I don't notice 'sexism'?

No, it's not 'bullgak', and Peregrine knows very well what he is talking about. It's awfully easy to 'not care about gender' when indifference means maintaining the status quo, and the status quo is firmly in your favour.

Just like whenever I express an opinion on genders in video games (namely that I say gender doesn't matter, since you play a character not a gender) but i always get dismissed because I'm a guy. If that's not sexism I don't know what is.

Is gender not a part of a character's identity?

in video games it only matters what you want to play as, in third person shooters it doesn't matter what you play, you could be a glob as far as a third person shooter is concerned.

 Matthew wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
This, right here, is bullgak. Since I'm a guy I don't notice 'sexism'?

No, it's not 'bullgak', and Peregrine knows very well what he is talking about. It's awfully easy to 'not care about gender' when indifference means maintaining the status quo, and the status quo is firmly in your favour.

Just like whenever I express an opinion on genders in video games (namely that I say gender doesn't matter, since you play a character not a gender) but i always get dismissed because I'm a guy. If that's not sexism I don't know what is.

Is gender not a part of a character's identity?

Yes, but gender is irrelevant to it. I don't hate Mirror's Edge for having a woman as a main character. I don't love Just Cause 2 because Rico is a man. I like them both because the games are good and the characters are good.

Are you saying gender is irrelevant to a character's identity, or that gender is irrelevant to whether or not you, personally, like a character? They're a little different, and I'd argue that gender absolutely does matter in whether or not a character is 'good', especially when taken in context of what else is on offer. Shadow of Mordor, for instance, is a great game; the protagonist is fairly flat and uninteresting for most of it, and part of that is due to the fact that he's the same old grizzled white man with a revenge story that we've seen over and over and over, with little else to distinguish him.

We're drifting a little off topic here, though.

I mean honestly the models from Victoria, block out the heads, you cant tell if they are male or female models. (As it should be because the armor is standard.)

So why are we blocking out one of the model's major distinguishing features? Also, the lighter build lends a clue or two.

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
This, right here, is bullgak. Since I'm a guy I don't notice 'sexism'?

No, it's not 'bullgak', and Peregrine knows very well what he is talking about. It's awfully easy to 'not care about gender' when indifference means maintaining the status quo, and the status quo is firmly in your favour.

Just like whenever I express an opinion on genders in video games (namely that I say gender doesn't matter, since you play a character not a gender) but i always get dismissed because I'm a guy. If that's not sexism I don't know what is.

Is gender not a part of a character's identity?

in video games it only matters what you want to play as, in third person shooters it doesn't matter what you play, you could be a glob as far as a third person shooter is concerned.

Sorry, are you saying video game characters are all flat and undeveloped? Or that all video game characters are sandboxy self-inserts?

 Spinner wrote:

Are you saying gender is irrelevant to a character's identity, or that gender is irrelevant to whether or not you, personally, like a character? They're a little different, and I'd argue that gender absolutely does matter in whether or not a character is 'good', especially when taken in context of what else is on offer. Shadow of Mordor, for instance, is a great game; the protagonist is fairly flat and uninteresting for most of it, and part of that is due to the fact that he's the same old grizzled white man with a revenge story that we've seen over and over and over, with little else to distinguish him.

We're drifting a little off topic here, though.

So if it was a woman of color with the same backstory it would be more exciting/interesting?

 Lusall wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Are you saying gender is irrelevant to a character's identity, or that gender is irrelevant to whether or not you, personally, like a character? They're a little different, and I'd argue that gender absolutely does matter in whether or not a character is 'good', especially when taken in context of what else is on offer. Shadow of Mordor, for instance, is a great game; the protagonist is fairly flat and uninteresting for most of it, and part of that is due to the fact that he's the same old grizzled white man with a revenge story that we've seen over and over and over, with little else to distinguish him.

We're drifting a little off topic here, though.

So if it was a woman of color with the same backstory it would be more exciting/interesting?

It would be different, and give a different perspective on the story, or provide a different way for the protagonist to interact with the other characters. I was actually thinking of his wife, though - obviously she's a tough woman, living at the Black Gate garrison; you could do the tutorial with Talion showing her the basics of swordfighting, and then she picks up the rest as she goes on/gets it because she's possessed by the Wraith, just like he is. It would have avoided one or two cliches and, depending on how they played out the opening scene, made some of the late-game conversations with the Wraith more interesting.

Or, even better, you could have played as Ratbag. But that's a bit of a pipe dream.

 Spinner wrote:

 Lusall wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Are you saying gender is irrelevant to a character's identity, or that gender is irrelevant to whether or not you, personally, like a character? They're a little different, and I'd argue that gender absolutely does matter in whether or not a character is 'good', especially when taken in context of what else is on offer. Shadow of Mordor, for instance, is a great game; the protagonist is fairly flat and uninteresting for most of it, and part of that is due to the fact that he's the same old grizzled white man with a revenge story that we've seen over and over and over, with little else to distinguish him.

We're drifting a little off topic here, though.

So if it was a woman of color with the same backstory it would be more exciting/interesting?

It would be different, and give a different perspective on the story, or provide a different way for the protagonist to interact with the other characters. I was actually thinking of his wife, though - obviously she's a tough woman, living at the Black Gate garrison; you could do the tutorial with Talion showing her the basics of swordfighting, and then she picks up the rest as she goes on/gets it because she's possessed by the Wraith, just like he is. It would have avoided one or two cliches and, depending on how they played out the opening scene, made some of the late-game conversations with the Wraith more interesting.

Or, even better, you could have played as Ratbag. But that's a bit of a pipe dream.

But it would still be the same story in the end. Except it's a wife's tale of revenge and not a husband's. I mean, I guess that's different than the normal "Guy avenges girl" but I feel like we're putting our modern day biases and applying them to a fantasy world that's not at all meant to make a political or social statement. (Not that gender equality is or should be considered political. I don't think it is or should be)

Also, +1 on the Ratbag idea...

I'm not saying it needed to be like that to make a statement, I'm saying that it needed to be different to be more interesting. We've seen this dark-haired white bearded dude over and over, we've seen this they-killed-my-wife-and-child story over and over - I honestly do think swapping it to they-killed-my-husband-and-child would be a little better story-wise, if only to contrast with certain flashback events. Orc Murder Simulator is a great game, I'll play it over and over and it did much more justice to its source material than I thought it would, but the protagonist's story is just so bland, and it could have been better.

Farewell, Ratbag. Best character in the game, never did anything but help you and never got the credit he deserved. Maybe Ioreth would have been less of a jerk to him.

However, what we can see from almost every industry is that "more interesting" almost never equates to "more money". That is the end goal of almost every product we consume - to make money. You don't sell video games to 13 year-old boys by saying "come play the fierce housewife who wants to avenge her husband's murder!".

That story line might work for a book or maybe a movie - but I doubt many video game studios are going to take a chance on that. Mountain Dew addled teenagers aren't concerned about diversity and "interesting new takes". Who cares.

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:


in video games it only matters what you want to play as, in third person shooters it doesn't matter what you play, you could be a glob as far as a third person shooter is concerned.

Sorry, are you saying video game characters are all flat and undeveloped? Or that all video game characters are sandboxy self-inserts?

what i'm saying in the overall scheme of things it does not matter. you can take any character switch the gender identity or even species identity and you will still have the same game.

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:


in video games it only matters what you want to play as, in third person shooters it doesn't matter what you play, you could be a glob as far as a third person shooter is concerned.

Sorry, are you saying video game characters are all flat and undeveloped? Or that all video game characters are sandboxy self-inserts?

what i'm saying in the overall scheme of things it does not matter. you can take any character switch the gender identity or even species identity and you will still have the same game.

You totally won't, though. Shadow of Mordor's story would have been totally different if you were playing as Ioreth or Ratbag. Even if you just change the gender without the overall character traits or major story points altering, swapping to Taliona instead of Talion, you would have avoided some of the major cliches the game brings up. If you played as a Sister of Battle instead of Captain Titus in Space Marine - a third-person shooter, for the record - you could have made some interesting story tweaks. Genderswap the protagonist of the first season of The Walking Dead - oh, neat, you don't even have to change Lee's name! - and the main drive becomes a surrogate mother-daughter relationship instead of a surrogate father-daughter relationship. Different, but still very powerful.

There's definitely games out there where the gender of the player character doesn't matter, but it's a ludicrous generalization to say that it doesn't matter at all.

However, what we can see from almost every industry is that "more interesting" almost never equates to "more money". That is the end goal of almost every product we consume - to make money. You don't sell video games to 13 year-old boys by saying "come play the fierce housewife who wants to avenge her husband's murder!".

That story line might work for a book or maybe a movie - but I doubt many video game studios are going to take a chance on that. Mountain Dew addled teenagers aren't concerned about diversity and "interesting new takes". Who cares.

Most big studios don't seem to want to, which sucks, but it's something to try and change rather than to just shrug on. There's plenty of markets out there beside the stereotypical hyperactive teen boy, and some of them are interested in video games. The Walking Dead, for instance - check out the mountains of money that made for Telltale.

Plenty of people do, in fact, care

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:


in video games it only matters what you want to play as, in third person shooters it doesn't matter what you play, you could be a glob as far as a third person shooter is concerned.

Sorry, are you saying video game characters are all flat and undeveloped? Or that all video game characters are sandboxy self-inserts?

what i'm saying in the overall scheme of things it does not matter. you can take any character switch the gender identity or even species identity and you will still have the same game.

You totally won't, though. Shadow of Mordor's story would have been totally different if you were playing as Ioreth or Ratbag. Even if you just change the gender without the overall character traits or major story points altering, swapping to Taliona instead of Talion, you would have avoided some of the major cliches the game brings up. If you played as a Sister of Battle instead of Captain Titus in Space Marine - a third-person shooter, for the record - you could have made some interesting story tweaks. Genderswap the protagonist of the first season of The Walking Dead - oh, neat, you don't even have to change Lee's name! - and the main drive becomes a surrogate mother-daughter relationship instead of a surrogate father-daughter relationship. Different, but still very powerful.

There's definitely games out there where the gender of the player doesn't matter, but it's a ludicrous generalization to say that it doesn't matter at all.

but it doesn't, think about it, you change the gender of the video games hero and all parties involved and it is still the same game.

Asterios wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:


in video games it only matters what you want to play as, in third person shooters it doesn't matter what you play, you could be a glob as far as a third person shooter is concerned.

Sorry, are you saying video game characters are all flat and undeveloped? Or that all video game characters are sandboxy self-inserts?

what i'm saying in the overall scheme of things it does not matter. you can take any character switch the gender identity or even species identity and you will still have the same game.

You totally won't, though. Shadow of Mordor's story would have been totally different if you were playing as Ioreth or Ratbag. Even if you just change the gender without the overall character traits or major story points altering, swapping to Taliona instead of Talion, you would have avoided some of the major cliches the game brings up. If you played as a Sister of Battle instead of Captain Titus in Space Marine - a third-person shooter, for the record - you could have made some interesting story tweaks. Genderswap the protagonist of the first season of The Walking Dead - oh, neat, you don't even have to change Lee's name! - and the main drive becomes a surrogate mother-daughter relationship instead of a surrogate father-daughter relationship. Different, but still very powerful.

There's definitely games out there where the gender of the player doesn't matter, but it's a ludicrous generalization to say that it doesn't matter at all.

but it doesn't, think about it, you change the gender of the video games hero and all parties involved and it is still the same game.

I just provided a bunch of examples where it would change the way characters interacted. Do you mean it's still going to have the same game mechanics? I mean, yeah, probably, but that was never my point. Or are you actually arguing that it would have no effect on the story or characters?

(Although a Sister of Battle would have different weapons. Drop that heretical experimental mine launcher and hand me a heavy flamer!)

And here I am thinking that the primary purpose of the main character in a video game is to serve as the player's way of interacting with the world, and as such any bit of characterization is mostly cosmetic in order to try to differentiate them from the multitude of other player characters for marketing reasons.

 Elbows wrote:
However, what we can see from almost every industry is that "more interesting" almost never equates to "more money". That is the end goal of almost every product we consume - to make money. You don't sell video games to 13 year-old boys by saying "come play the fierce housewife who wants to avenge her husband's murder!".

That story line might work for a book or maybe a movie - but I doubt many video game studios are going to take a chance on that. Mountain Dew addled teenagers aren't concerned about diversity and "interesting new takes". Who cares.

I remember how "everyone" thought having a female lead in Tomb Raider was foolish and would make the game not appeal to male gamers.

Wierd how female action hero's in moives do well.

Wierd how all these people making female figures in their ranges are loosing money on them.

Wierd how many people in on line games choose female avatars - especially boys and men

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And here I am thinking that the primary purpose of the main character in a video game is to serve as the player's way of interacting with the world, and as such any bit of characterization is mostly cosmetic in order to try to differentiate them from the multitude of other player characters for marketing reasons.

There's games where that's true, and there's games where that's patently untrue.

(What a cynical edit )

Look at the Arkham series. You're playing as Batman, and it goes out of its way to make you feel like Batman. He's the primary way of interacting with the game world, yeah, but he does this by doing Batman things - swooping around Gotham, breaking criminal limbs, punching the Joker over and over and over, that sort of stuff. Or, to go back to the Telltale well, look at their Game of Thrones game. You play multiple characters, and your dialogue choices and actions can change some of their characterization, but each of them has a distinct core personality. You're using them to interact with the game world, but Asher and Rodrik aren't going to get the same interaction options or conversations with some characters, because they're different people.

 Spinner wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And here I am thinking that the primary purpose of the main character in a video game is to serve as the player's way of interacting with the world, and as such any bit of characterization is mostly cosmetic in order to try to differentiate them from the multitude of other player characters for marketing reasons.

There's games where that's true, and there's games where that's patently untrue.

(What a cynical edit )

Look at the Arkham series. You're playing as Batman, and it goes out of its way to make you feel like Batman. He's the primary way of interacting with the game world, yeah, but he does this by doing Batman things - swooping around Gotham, breaking criminal limbs, punching the Joker over and over and over, that sort of stuff. Or, to go back to the Telltale well, look at their Game of Thrones game. You play multiple characters, and your dialogue choices and actions can change some of their characterization, but each of them has a distinct core personality. You're using them to interact with the game world, but Asher and Rodrik aren't going to get the same interaction options or conversations with some characters, because they're different people.

so instead of playing as Batman your playing as Batgirl(woman) hell look at the recent animated Batman cartoon they replaced Robin with Batgirl. look at Tomb Raider its just a female Indiana Jones. (but more modern), they have had female Thor, not once but twice even. and the list goes on.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
However, what we can see from almost every industry is that "more interesting" almost never equates to "more money". That is the end goal of almost every product we consume - to make money. You don't sell video games to 13 year-old boys by saying "come play the fierce housewife who wants to avenge her husband's murder!".

That story line might work for a book or maybe a movie - but I doubt many video game studios are going to take a chance on that. Mountain Dew addled teenagers aren't concerned about diversity and "interesting new takes". Who cares.

I remember how "everyone" thought having a female lead in Tomb Raider was foolish and would make the game not appeal to male gamers.

Wierd how female action hero's in moives do well.

Wierd how all these people making female figures in their ranges are loosing money on them.

Wierd how many people in on line games choose female avatars - especially boys and men

To counter your point without trying to be that guy...

There's a reason they over sexualized her (Lara) in the Tomb Raider games. They didn't think a female lead would succeed. UNLESS! "Give 'er huge knockers and focus the camera on her butt".

Ah, but does it feel like batman because that is what batman could do, or does it feel like batman because it has his face on it?
If you were to replace batman with generic muscleman (or musclewoman) #33, will it still be Arkham? I would say so; the mechanics are there, they are the same, its just that it no longer has a recognizable setting derived from a pre-existing (and profitable. Cynicism ahoy! ) comic book series. You certainly won't be able to call it Arkham, as that refers to a specific setting, but it is still effectively that game.

I must confess, I am not too familiar with the Telltale games, but they do seem to be an interesting case from a design standpoint, as they straddle the line between an interactive story (or, to use a more derogatory term, a "choose your own adventure" book) and a video game. On one hand, you have a set series of events that are triggered by a set series of options (turn to page X for outcome Y), and yet it offers navigation and fail events determined by a series of (faulty) command inputs, characteristics of a video game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lusall wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
However, what we can see from almost every industry is that "more interesting" almost never equates to "more money". That is the end goal of almost every product we consume - to make money. You don't sell video games to 13 year-old boys by saying "come play the fierce housewife who wants to avenge her husband's murder!".

That story line might work for a book or maybe a movie - but I doubt many video game studios are going to take a chance on that. Mountain Dew addled teenagers aren't concerned about diversity and "interesting new takes". Who cares.

I remember how "everyone" thought having a female lead in Tomb Raider was foolish and would make the game not appeal to male gamers.

Wierd how female action hero's in moives do well.

Wierd how all these people making female figures in their ranges are loosing money on them.

Wierd how many people in on line games choose female avatars - especially boys and men

To counter your point without trying to be that guy...

There's a reason they over sexualized her (Lara) in the Tomb Raider games. They didn't think a female lead would succeed. UNLESS! "Give 'er huge knockers and focus the camera on her butt".

Eh, I read somewhere that the large breasts where due to graphical limitations; turns out its hard to denote a polygon based character as female unless you really exaggerate some bits of her, especially if you really intend on showing that the lead is a lady. She become known for her figure, so in later games they kept with the formula because apparently it worked really well.

Something like that anyway. Its been a long time.

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And here I am thinking that the primary purpose of the main character in a video game is to serve as the player's way of interacting with the world, and as such any bit of characterization is mostly cosmetic in order to try to differentiate them from the multitude of other player characters for marketing reasons.

There's games where that's true, and there's games where that's patently untrue.

(What a cynical edit )

Look at the Arkham series. You're playing as Batman, and it goes out of its way to make you feel like Batman. He's the primary way of interacting with the game world, yeah, but he does this by doing Batman things - swooping around Gotham, breaking criminal limbs, punching the Joker over and over and over, that sort of stuff. Or, to go back to the Telltale well, look at their Game of Thrones game. You play multiple characters, and your dialogue choices and actions can change some of their characterization, but each of them has a distinct core personality. You're using them to interact with the game world, but Asher and Rodrik aren't going to get the same interaction options or conversations with some characters, because they're different people.

so instead of playing as Batman your playing as Batgirl(woman) hell look at the recent animated Batman cartoon they replaced Robin with Batgirl. look at Tomb Raider its just a female Indiana Jones. (but more modern), they have had female Thor, not once but twice even. and the list goes on.

Then you're playing as Batgirl or Batwoman, or you're playing as Indiana Jones instead of Lara Croft. You do realize these are different characters, right? With different backstories and different traits?

Ah, but does it feel like batman because that is what batman could do, or does it feel like batman because it has his face on it?

Yes

The game series does a fantastic job showing off Batman's key traits and abilities - not least of which is the ability to do something ludicrously brutal to someone but make sure you know they're alive - and tie that in with the game mechanics. You could change it to generic muscleman #33 and it would still be a good game, but it would still feel like a Batman game precisely because of what it allows you to do and how it is designed. Who knows what the story would be like, though. They made good use of the characters they drew on.

It just seems weird to me to take this piece of media that's obviously able to create complex stories and say 'no, it can't have a main character with any recognizable traits beyond the utterly superficial, because that character allows the player to place themselves in the game world'. Bella Swan exists, and nobody's saying that books can't have a protagonist with solid characterization; Master Chief or the latest Elder Scrolls main character shouldn't preclude games from having a defined character.

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And here I am thinking that the primary purpose of the main character in a video game is to serve as the player's way of interacting with the world, and as such any bit of characterization is mostly cosmetic in order to try to differentiate them from the multitude of other player characters for marketing reasons.

There's games where that's true, and there's games where that's patently untrue.

(What a cynical edit )

Look at the Arkham series. You're playing as Batman, and it goes out of its way to make you feel like Batman. He's the primary way of interacting with the game world, yeah, but he does this by doing Batman things - swooping around Gotham, breaking criminal limbs, punching the Joker over and over and over, that sort of stuff. Or, to go back to the Telltale well, look at their Game of Thrones game. You play multiple characters, and your dialogue choices and actions can change some of their characterization, but each of them has a distinct core personality. You're using them to interact with the game world, but Asher and Rodrik aren't going to get the same interaction options or conversations with some characters, because they're different people.

so instead of playing as Batman your playing as Batgirl(woman) hell look at the recent animated Batman cartoon they replaced Robin with Batgirl. look at Tomb Raider its just a female Indiana Jones. (but more modern), they have had female Thor, not once but twice even. and the list goes on.

Then you're playing as Batgirl or Batwoman, or you're playing as Indiana Jones instead of Lara Croft. You do realize these are different characters, right? With different backstories and different traits?

Ah, but does it feel like batman because that is what batman could do, or does it feel like batman because it has his face on it?

Yes

The game series does a fantastic job showing off Batman's key traits and abilities - not least of which is the ability to do something ludicrously brutal to someone but make sure you know they're alive - and tie that in with the game mechanics. You could change it to generic muscleman #33 and it would still be a good game, but it would still feel like a Batman game precisely because of what it allows you to do and how it is designed. Who knows what the story would be like, though. They made good use of the characters they drew on.

It just seems weird to me to take this piece of media that's obviously able to create complex stories and say 'no, it can't have a main character with any recognizable traits beyond the utterly superficial, because that character allows the player to place themselves in the game world'. Bella Swan exists, and nobody's saying that books can't have a protagonist with solid characterization; Master Chief or the latest Elder Scrolls main character shouldn't preclude games from having a defined character.

yeah they are different characters in different stories, but in a game it does not matter, you are not watching a movie or reading a book you are playing an avatar going thru doing things, and what gender or species that avatar is, makes no difference.

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And here I am thinking that the primary purpose of the main character in a video game is to serve as the player's way of interacting with the world, and as such any bit of characterization is mostly cosmetic in order to try to differentiate them from the multitude of other player characters for marketing reasons.

There's games where that's true, and there's games where that's patently untrue.

(What a cynical edit )

Look at the Arkham series. You're playing as Batman, and it goes out of its way to make you feel like Batman. He's the primary way of interacting with the game world, yeah, but he does this by doing Batman things - swooping around Gotham, breaking criminal limbs, punching the Joker over and over and over, that sort of stuff. Or, to go back to the Telltale well, look at their Game of Thrones game. You play multiple characters, and your dialogue choices and actions can change some of their characterization, but each of them has a distinct core personality. You're using them to interact with the game world, but Asher and Rodrik aren't going to get the same interaction options or conversations with some characters, because they're different people.

so instead of playing as Batman your playing as Batgirl(woman) hell look at the recent animated Batman cartoon they replaced Robin with Batgirl. look at Tomb Raider its just a female Indiana Jones. (but more modern), they have had female Thor, not once but twice even. and the list goes on.

Then you're playing as Batgirl or Batwoman, or you're playing as Indiana Jones instead of Lara Croft. You do realize these are different characters, right? With different backstories and different traits?

Ah, but does it feel like batman because that is what batman could do, or does it feel like batman because it has his face on it?

Yes

The game series does a fantastic job showing off Batman's key traits and abilities - not least of which is the ability to do something ludicrously brutal to someone but make sure you know they're alive - and tie that in with the game mechanics. You could change it to generic muscleman #33 and it would still be a good game, but it would still feel like a Batman game precisely because of what it allows you to do and how it is designed. Who knows what the story would be like, though. They made good use of the characters they drew on.

It just seems weird to me to take this piece of media that's obviously able to create complex stories and say 'no, it can't have a main character with any recognizable traits beyond the utterly superficial, because that character allows the player to place themselves in the game world'. Bella Swan exists, and nobody's saying that books can't have a protagonist with solid characterization; Master Chief or the latest Elder Scrolls main character shouldn't preclude games from having a defined character.

yeah they are different characters in different stories, but in a game it does not matter, you are not watching a movie or reading a book you are playing an avatar going thru doing things, and what gender or species that avatar is, makes no difference.

I think we either play entirely different games or place different value on the stories found in them, if that's what you think.

Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And here I am thinking that the primary purpose of the main character in a video game is to serve as the player's way of interacting with the world, and as such any bit of characterization is mostly cosmetic in order to try to differentiate them from the multitude of other player characters for marketing reasons.

There's games where that's true, and there's games where that's patently untrue.

(What a cynical edit )

Look at the Arkham series. You're playing as Batman, and it goes out of its way to make you feel like Batman. He's the primary way of interacting with the game world, yeah, but he does this by doing Batman things - swooping around Gotham, breaking criminal limbs, punching the Joker over and over and over, that sort of stuff. Or, to go back to the Telltale well, look at their Game of Thrones game. You play multiple characters, and your dialogue choices and actions can change some of their characterization, but each of them has a distinct core personality. You're using them to interact with the game world, but Asher and Rodrik aren't going to get the same interaction options or conversations with some characters, because they're different people.

so instead of playing as Batman your playing as Batgirl(woman) hell look at the recent animated Batman cartoon they replaced Robin with Batgirl. look at Tomb Raider its just a female Indiana Jones. (but more modern), they have had female Thor, not once but twice even. and the list goes on.

Then you're playing as Batgirl or Batwoman, or you're playing as Indiana Jones instead of Lara Croft. You do realize these are different characters, right? With different backstories and different traits?

Ah, but does it feel like batman because that is what batman could do, or does it feel like batman because it has his face on it?

Yes

The game series does a fantastic job showing off Batman's key traits and abilities - not least of which is the ability to do something ludicrously brutal to someone but make sure you know they're alive - and tie that in with the game mechanics. You could change it to generic muscleman #33 and it would still be a good game, but it would still feel like a Batman game precisely because of what it allows you to do and how it is designed. Who knows what the story would be like, though. They made good use of the characters they drew on.

It just seems weird to me to take this piece of media that's obviously able to create complex stories and say 'no, it can't have a main character with any recognizable traits beyond the utterly superficial, because that character allows the player to place themselves in the game world'. Bella Swan exists, and nobody's saying that books can't have a protagonist with solid characterization; Master Chief or the latest Elder Scrolls main character shouldn't preclude games from having a defined character.

yeah they are different characters in different stories, but in a game it does not matter, you are not watching a movie or reading a book you are playing an avatar going thru doing things, and what gender or species that avatar is, makes no difference.

I think we either play entirely different games or place different value on the stories found in them, if that's what you think.

and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.

look at the new Star Wars movies, same story but with a female hero instead of a male hero.

 Just Tony wrote:
Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.

Right, but not all games are Skyrim, which is almost word for word the point I made a few posts above

and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.

That is exactly what I said, yes. Do you not view the story as important?

 Spinner wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.

Right, but not all games are Skyrim, which is almost word for word the point I made a few posts above

and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.

That is exactly what I said, yes. Do you not view the story as important?

in a game? no because you are not limited to the story, you can alter it and change it.

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.

Right, but not all games are Skyrim, which is almost word for word the point I made a few posts above

and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.

That is exactly what I said, yes. Do you not view the story as important?

in a game? no because you are not limited to the story, you can alter it and change it.

Then we're coming at this from fundamentally different directions. From my point of view, story always matters.

And, again, that statement depends on the game, and how you mean 'alter'. Are you talking about different choices and story paths? There's still a set story that the developers are telling, you're just choosing which one.

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.

Right, but not all games are Skyrim, which is almost word for word the point I made a few posts above

and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.

That is exactly what I said, yes. Do you not view the story as important?

in a game? no because you are not limited to the story, you can alter it and change it.

Then we're coming at this from fundamentally different directions. From my point of view, story always matters.

And, again, that statement depends on the game, and how you mean 'alter'. Are you talking about different choices and story paths? There's still a set story that the developers are telling, you're just choosing which one.

in a game you can do almost what you want as long as it falls within the parameters of the game, if you want Batman to beat up good guys and ignore the bad guys and die doing it and presto change-o its a new story a new version

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.

Right, but not all games are Skyrim, which is almost word for word the point I made a few posts above

and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.

That is exactly what I said, yes. Do you not view the story as important?

in a game? no because you are not limited to the story, you can alter it and change it.

Then we're coming at this from fundamentally different directions. From my point of view, story always matters.

And, again, that statement depends on the game, and how you mean 'alter'. Are you talking about different choices and story paths? There's still a set story that the developers are telling, you're just choosing which one.

in a game you can do almost what you want as long as it falls within the parameters of the game, if you want Batman to beat up good guys and ignore the bad guys and die doing it and presto change-o its a new story a new version

...no, you can't. The Arkham games don't let you punch Commissioner Gordon in the face.

Again, not every game is Skyrim.

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.

Right, but not all games are Skyrim, which is almost word for word the point I made a few posts above

and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.

That is exactly what I said, yes. Do you not view the story as important?

in a game? no because you are not limited to the story, you can alter it and change it.

Then we're coming at this from fundamentally different directions. From my point of view, story always matters.

And, again, that statement depends on the game, and how you mean 'alter'. Are you talking about different choices and story paths? There's still a set story that the developers are telling, you're just choosing which one.

in a game you can do almost what you want as long as it falls within the parameters of the game, if you want Batman to beat up good guys and ignore the bad guys and die doing it and presto change-o its a new story a new version

...no, you can't. The Arkham games don't let you punch Commissioner Gordon in the face.

Again, not every game is Skyrim.

but does the game make you attack the bad guys? or can you just ignore them and die and become Suicide man.

I feel like a major point is entirely being missed here. Yes you can absolutely run mario into the first Goomba 800,000,000 times but that will not actually accomplish the game nor does it change the rules of it (if Mario hits Goomba, he dies, game over) as opposed to (if Mario dodges Goomba, completes level, progress) both do not result in the same thing and therefore do not alter the gameplay. Back do Gender, the point is not that gender changes the gameplay at all, in fact, it really shouldn't in most circumstances. A girl can leap of faith off a 100 story building (even though it should kill everyone), she can be an elite COG soldier, and a guy can be a stay at home father caught up in the zombie apocalypse. The point is that whether you know it or not, as a male, we've been identifying with the male heroes of those games since we were children and putting ourselves into those roles. As such, and as the over-represented group, we cannot discuss what is "appropriate" or "balanced" representation because well, we already are. It is the job of any corporation to create an equal opportunity for all who identify with all non-gameplay changing aspects and allow us to choose for ourselves. If you don't identify with Mario or Marcus or Assman23 the Skyrim character, that's fine, but others do, and it's not our job to decide. So going back on point, it's not GW's job to exclude a group thinking they know best who identifies, it is their job to be inclusive and allow people to decide for themselves. If there's just one guy or girl out there looking to build a badass female guard regiment than they should. One person who couldn't wait to cosplay as a female assassin, be a badass lady commissar, then it's enough. The novel writers understand this, which is why Gaunts Ghosts and other series have actual representation, letting the reader decide for themselves who to identify with. So there, rant over.

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.

Right, but not all games are Skyrim, which is almost word for word the point I made a few posts above

and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.

That is exactly what I said, yes. Do you not view the story as important?

in a game? no because you are not limited to the story, you can alter it and change it.

Then we're coming at this from fundamentally different directions. From my point of view, story always matters.

And, again, that statement depends on the game, and how you mean 'alter'. Are you talking about different choices and story paths? There's still a set story that the developers are telling, you're just choosing which one.

in a game you can do almost what you want as long as it falls within the parameters of the game, if you want Batman to beat up good guys and ignore the bad guys and die doing it and presto change-o its a new story a new version

...no, you can't. The Arkham games don't let you punch Commissioner Gordon in the face.

Again, not every game is Skyrim.

but does the game make you attack the bad guys? or can you just ignore them and die and become Suicide man.

You can, but you're not really creating a story at that point, you're doing something dumb for a quick laugh. You're playing with the game, not playing the game.