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 Just Tony wrote:
So we see this is going to be a civil discussion, and sides aren't already drawn.

 Just Tony wrote:
obligatory SJWs suffering from testicle guilt

Um.

Yeah...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So we see this is going to be a civil discussion, and sides aren't already drawn.

 Just Tony wrote:
obligatory SJWs suffering from testicle guilt

Um.

Yeah...

Yeah. Whoops


I don't think anyone on either side of this discussion will be persuaded to join the other by this point. Probably best we let this thread get locked, and not bring this topic back on Dakka until something changes.

G.A

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So we see this is going to be a civil discussion, and sides aren't already drawn.

 Just Tony wrote:
obligatory SJWs suffering from testicle guilt

Um.

Yeah...

Yeah. Whoops


I don't think anyone on either side of this discussion will be persuaded to join the other by this point. Probably best we let this thread get locked, and not bring this topic back on Dakka until something changes.

G.A

I'm actually going to join the other side... to get into trouble and do nothing productive with the discussion.

So, does anyone else re-read a thread like this and go "Jesus, we're such huge nerds..."

Nah. I read it more like "well that was predictable"

 General Annoyance wrote:
Nah. I read it more like "well that was predictable"

This, it always, ALWAYS goes the same way, and its ALWAYS the same people chiming in with the same argument and its always the same people going back and forth with one another.


Honestly i wish at this point Mods would just make a sticky thread for the subject and every week it gets flushes out and starts over so we can have a containment thread for it.

 Lusall wrote:
So, does anyone else re-read a thread like this and go "Jesus, we're such huge nerds..."

Not in particular, no, and I did not even made my gakky joke and Kriegsmen women models being made by Forgeworld.

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, there's pretty much no argument you can bring to the table that is valid for your point except "Nobody should have monogender anything except women",

So you go from “There is a slightly better reason for Sisters than for Marines” directly to “It is always okay to be monogender for women and never okay for men”? WTF dude?
I mean, it would definitely make sense for, say, Dark Angels to be men only because of the very strong monastic theme of the chapter. And as I already mentioned, I wouldn't mind if the Sisters became mixed gendered. And let's be honest for a second, the army has always had a lot of male models, unlike space marines which never had a single female model while having a hundred time more miniatures.

 General Annoyance wrote:
The Space Marine as a concept may include those inspirations for their design, but in practice they are their own idea, not something that necessarily has to be influenced by what they're inspired from.

My point was that they are a canvas, with a voluntarily very very indistinct identity so that they can be declined in tons of various concepts. Adding the opportunity for female marines is definitely keeping in touch with this canvas aspect.

 Lusall wrote:
Sisters of Battle were created for those that wanted a female version of the Space Marine.

I obviously disagree. Do you have anything to support this?

 Lusall wrote:
Your reason behind why it would be okay for their to never be male "Sisters of Battle" could pretty easily be applied in the opposite as to why Space Marines can only be male.

Let's try together. I wrote that the Decree Passive was a nice illustration of the byzantine ways of the Imperium. Would this work for space marines? Are space marines only male because of a Decree that illustrate the byzantine ways of the Imperium? Well, no. Okay, then I guess we can all agree that my reason for why it could be okay for Sisters of battle to be only women could not be pretty easily applied to space marines. Now it would be completely okay to introduce another faction who is all-male because of some Decree that illustrate the byzantine ways of the Imperium. But there currently ain't one.

 Lusall wrote:
To say nothing of all the reasons given in this thread in regards to genetics.

Genetics of the Space Marines are literally A wizard did it : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt. Their powers are magic. Your science is irrelevant.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just reaffirming the argument you made.

No, you are not.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Still, I can name them, but as friends who have no account on Dakka, I'm afraid I can't give any more proof than just names.

Meh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But unlike other mixed gender factions, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the Space Marines are male - which I believe I mentioned in the Female Space Marine thread - which also reflect the dogmatic and byzantine nature of the Imperium.

There is literally one reason currently, and that reason is “The space magic from the space wizard to make space marines only work on space men and not on space women”. I'm sorry I don't feel that random arbitrary restriction compelling at all.

Is it relevant if you find an arbitrary restriction compelling or not? People are discussing this issue as if we're investigating Games Workshop for human rights violations etc.

They're a company who makes plastic toy soldiers. They don't owe anything to society or consumers (as long as you get what's on the cover of the box). They could come out and simply declare "we don't want to make female Space Marines" and that'd be the end of the discussion. Even worse they could simply state "there has never been a successful Space Marine created from a female, blah blah blah" if they really wanted to rock the nerd world. They don't have to justify anything to anyone. Producing a hobby consumer product is precisely that: arbitrary. The lore and fluff is their baby.

If a consumer doesn't like it? They don't buy it, carry on. Games Workshop sales will either remain the same, or won't.

 Elbows wrote:
Is it relevant if you find an arbitrary restriction compelling or not?

To the current discussion? Yeah. I mean, of course GW doesn't owe us anything, doesn't prevent us from talking about 40k and what we like about it and what we don't like about it. I mean, it's the whole point of this forum…

Beyond the fact that the Primarchs are the Emperor's sons and that they were made in his image (being that he's a dude) and the Space Marines are made in the Primarch's image...and by your logic (which is sound) why would the Imperium do anything different than what has been done for 10,000+ years? And done by the God Emperor no less. All assuming that female space marines are even possible in the first place.

Now, obviously there's nothing (to my knowledge) that explicitly states that women can't be space marines in the way the decree passive states only women can be Sisters of Battle. Pretty sure the reason for that is two fold.

1) In my opinion, GW never thought that we nerds would ever post endless threads about this in Dakka Dakka, thus never thought it would be necessary to say undoubtedly that Space Marines are only Male.

2) Also my opinion, they didn't think anyone would think about Space Marines being female because there are sisters of battle.

3) Almost certainly true, the outcry from a piece of fluff stating "Males Only" would be pretty powerful. From a PR standpoint at the very least.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Lusall wrote:
So, does anyone else re-read a thread like this and go "Jesus, we're such huge nerds..."

Not in particular, no, and I did not even made my gakky joke and Kriegsmen women models being made by Forgeworld.

Nerd. j/k

 Lusall wrote:
Beyond the fact that the Primarchs are the Emperor's sons and that they were made in his image (being that he's a dude) and the Space Marines are made in the Primarch's image...

The primarchs look massively different from one another. Space marines certainly are not clones either. Your argument is invalid.
I mean, you are literally telling me that having literally wings, as a part of your own body, is an acceptable difference but having a different sex is not. Wut?

 Lusall wrote:
and by your logic (which is sound) why would the Imperium do anything different than what has been done for 10,000+ years?

How were the various storm-flyers and thunder-flyers introduced? Retcon. How were the grav weapons introduced? Retcon. How were the Centurion armors introduced? Retcon. How were the Wulfen introduced? Retcon. How were the Sanguinary Guard introduced? Retcon. How was anything that wasn't part of rogue trader introduced for marines? Retcon. It's always the same, they introduce stuff not as “Marines just discovered that”, just as “Marines had that for a long time (but it's the first time we mention it)”.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

My point was that they are a canvas, with a voluntarily very very indistinct identity so that they can be declined in tons of various concepts. Adding the opportunity for female marines is definitely keeping in touch with this canvas aspect.

Sorry if I'm being a bit dumb, but I don't understand. You're saying that Marines have an identity and feel that's vague enough to allow for the encompassing of female Marines?

But couldn't you argue that specially selected, genetically engineered and doctrined superhumans who have done away with any pleasures life has to offer to fight for the Emperor, and who see most things that lie outside of the Codex Astartes as being heresy, would not be very welcoming of the idea of female Marines?

 Lusall wrote:
Now, obviously there's nothing (to my knowledge) that explicitly states that women can't be space marines in the way the decree passive states only women can be Sisters of Battle.

There is. Some old WD article called “Creation of a space marine”. Linked a transcription in my previous message.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Requirements

 Lusall wrote:
2) Also my opinion, they didn't think anyone would think about Space Marines being female because there are sisters of battle.

Sisters of battle are not female space marines, at all. They are a completely different army. Even if both armies became completely mix-gendered, Sisters would still be very distinct from marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Annoyance wrote:
You're saying that Marines have an identity and feel that's vague enough to allow for the encompassing of female Marines?

I guess there is a misunderstanding ^^. I mean “the identity of space marines” as in “what makes the concept of space marines”, not as “the individuality of each marine”. What I meant is that the concept of the Space Marine is just “an elite super warrior” with a very strong emphasis on how each of the chapters can have very different tactics, belief systems, culture, etc. Hence allowing for even more variety on that front is definitely not a betrayal of the concept.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I guess there is a misunderstanding ^^. I mean “the identity of space marines” as in “what makes the concept of space marines”, not as “the individuality of each marine”. What I meant is that the concept of the Space Marine is just “an elite super warrior” with a very strong emphasis on how each of the chapters can have very different tactics, belief systems, culture, etc. Hence allowing for even more variety on that front is definitely not a betrayal of the concept.

Ah, gotcha.

Well I mean "Elite Super Warrior" may be cutting it a little too short - it's also a lot about their loyalty and often very rigid lifestyles, even if these vary massively between Chapters. The very rigid and narrow system by which they live and fight as Marines seems almost indicative of their nature; we all know how idiotic Space Marines can be in combat as they'll get themselves killed needlessly over thinking tactically and possibly making a retreat, or they'll run into fights guns blazing despite being severely outgunned by the enemy. It just seems very indicative of their indoctrination, and perhaps the writers behind the Space Marines wanted to emphasise this with how restricted the boundaries are of becoming a Space Marine.

I think we've reached the paradox point of the argument, however, when both sides can make very valid points about why we should/shouldn't have female Space Marines, but neither seems to be superior over the other; it's that point in 40k lore where it really is down to interpretation.

I don't think I'd be entirely against female Space Marines if they were to happen. I'm just more inclined to feel that this is how 40k has been written, and that we should go along with that. Hardly like we're in the position to suggest to a creator how they should make their universe anyway. I do also feel that, despite their clear differences, bridging the gender gap between Space Marines and the Adeptus Sororitas would weaken both factions overall.

G.A

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lusall wrote:
Beyond the fact that the Primarchs are the Emperor's sons and that they were made in his image (being that he's a dude) and the Space Marines are made in the Primarch's image...

The primarchs look massively different from one another. Space marines certainly are not clones either. Your argument is invalid.

I mean, you are literally telling me that having literally wings, as a part of your own body, is an acceptable difference but having a different sex is not. Wut?

 Lusall wrote:
and by your logic (which is sound) why would the Imperium do anything different than what has been done for 10,000+ years?

How were the various storm-flyers and thunder-flyers introduced? Retcon. How were the grav weapons introduced? Retcon. How were the Centurion armors introduced? Retcon. How were the Wulfen introduced? Retcon. How were the Sanguinary Guard introduced? Retcon. How was anything that wasn't part of rogue trader introduced for marines? Retcon. It's always the same, they introduce stuff not as “Marines just discovered that”, just as “Marines had that for a long time (but it's the first time we mention it)”.

Word to the wise, stating someone's argument is invalid doesn't make it so. Allow me to point out the particular words here. Son. Male. As in...the gender. Nowhere did I say that they look the same. However, in some chapters, space marines do take on physical features of their primarchs. More to the point...I'm simply using your argument. They are his sons. It's stated in the fluff that they are his sons as part of the "Angels of Death" dogma (or whatever you want to call it). Making something "in your image"doesn't mean that they are going to be exactly like you in every way.

My point is, if the echlisarchy is going to go by the letter (ie, creating an army of women because they can't have "men" under arms), and that's just the byzantine way they do things in the Imperium...you don't think that it would be then weird for someone to go "Well I mean, gee. Of course. They're his sons, but there can be daughters too". All of this of course (again) ignores genetics part it. I know...I know. You're stuck on the "It's witchcraft" part of it, but like all sci-fi there is at least a small bit of reality that it's based.

For someone who wants to be civil, you're really not being that. But you're also completely missing what I'm saying and putting words in my mouth. Please read what I said again. In my opinion (obviously, no one here is reading old dev studio people's minds) Sisters were made to be the female equivalent to space marines. They have 3+ save (from power armor) and bolt guns and they even have rhinos and the whole shebang. Prove to me that that's not the case and I'll concede the point. I realize that I'm making an educated guess but then...most of us are making educated guesses?


And unless that bit of fluff about only male space marines has also been retconned, what are we arguing?

((I really proof read my response in the future to avoid having to edit the message a million times for simple grammar/spelling mistakes))

And on a side note...iD4chan's article on this might be one of the funniest things I've read in a while. And I hate 4chan and anything attatched to it.

Boneville wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But unlike other mixed gender factions, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the Space Marines are male - which I believe I mentioned in the Female Space Marine thread - which also reflect the dogmatic and byzantine nature of the Imperium.

As for the Sisters, the Decree Passive is the only thing stopping them being male. Cut the Decree, and then men can join.

So, why should the Decree be held sancrosanct and cannot be changed, but the various reasons as to why a Space Marine is male should be?

The problem with this is that all the reasons are stated are in universe explanations. These can be entirely rewritten, just like other things has been rewritten.

For example the whole necron background were rewritten and the ctan shattered into pieces.

The same goes for the decree. you can rewrite it to be a matter of interpretation where one part of the ecchlesiarchy takes it literally thus employing the sisters, but one group interpretates it as no standing army but the preachers and missionarier should have the means to "defend" themselves, thus leading to enough arms to be coonsidered a standing army in everything but name, with the important bit of explicitly being for "self defense". Then you have an opening for a schism in the ecchlisiarchy as a whole.

the same goes for space marines. My point being you can make these things without losing the identity of the already existing chapters/factions if you want. Just because female space marines are added, that doesnt mean all the already existing chapters becomes genderswapped.

Thank you for essentially repeating what I said.

Yes, it CAN be rewritten. Should it? Not in my opinion. Marines are fine as all male, Sisters are fine as all female. Should Sisters receive more attention from GW? Yes.

(And yes, making a small group of a mono-gender faction the opposite gender DOES make the faction lose identity. What if there were an all-male order of "Sisters"? A group of peaceful, pacifist Orks? Tyranids that didn't follow the Hive Mind and didn't have animal instincts?
These all break set rules of fluff of their faction, and it does lessen the identity of it. Because at that point, are they really what they were? Is a pacifistic, peaceful, caring, weak pink skinned Ork still an Ork?)

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lusall wrote:
Your reason behind why it would be okay for their to never be male "Sisters of Battle" could pretty easily be applied in the opposite as to why Space Marines can only be male.

Let's try together. I wrote that the Decree Passive was a nice illustration of the byzantine ways of the Imperium. Would this work for space marines? Are space marines only male because of a Decree that illustrate the byzantine ways of the Imperium? Well, no. Okay, then I guess we can all agree that my reason for why it could be okay for Sisters of battle to be only women could not be pretty easily applied to space marines. Now it would be completely okay to introduce another faction who is all-male because of some Decree that illustrate the byzantine ways of the Imperium. But there currently ain't one.

I'm sorry, have you forgotten the perfectly valid hypotheses I suggested? If so, allow me to repeat:

1. The Space Marines and Primarchs were created by one man, the Emperor. Either because of his own misogyny (which should be in no way interpreted as indicative of the whole Imperium) or simply his incapability to bond Astartes gene-seed to female subjects, he only made male Marines.
1b. Due to the Imperium's reliance on dogma and tradition, as well as the fear of tampering with gene-seed or simple failure on attempts, no female Space Marines were successfully created, either because they were not given chance by the Chapters, or failed to accept the implants.

2. Geneseed may be linked exclusively to the Y chromosome.

3. All reference to Space Marines is as the Emperor's "sons" or "grandsons", implying male. Due to these traits, it may be commonly accepted in the Imperium that Space Marines are ONLY men due to these depictions, and it would be wrong to deviate from tradition.

Yes, there is no "Decree". But are there explanations as to WHY Space Marines are male only? Yes. I listed them before, and have done so now.
You're right - there ain't one. There's three.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just reaffirming the argument you made.

No, you are not.

Could you explain how I am not, please?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Still, I can name them, but as friends who have no account on Dakka, I'm afraid I can't give any more proof than just names.

Meh.

Thank you for accepting that point.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But unlike other mixed gender factions, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the Space Marines are male - which I believe I mentioned in the Female Space Marine thread - which also reflect the dogmatic and byzantine nature of the Imperium.

There is literally one reason currently, and that reason is “The space magic from the space wizard to make space marines only work on space men and not on space women”. I'm sorry I don't feel that random arbitrary restriction compelling at all.

Please see above.

Of course, the same thing applies - "a badly written space law from the space government was bypassed by space church and somehow no-one cared that they had a full space army, which the space law was passed to prevent, so really, why do they even have the space law when what it stood for is so easily circumvented". And I quote - I'm sorry I don't feel that random arbitrary restriction compelling at all.

Seriously, replace any reference of "man" with "person" on the Decree Passive. Boom. No more Sisters. That's the easiest retcon I've seen - replace a word.
Would I like that? Not at all.

 Lusall wrote:
Allow me to point out the particular words here. Son. Male. As in...the gender.

Those words that you didn't use about Space Marines? Yeah. Well, maybe the Emperor of Mankind only reigns over the men too? As I explain below, the significance of the text you are quoting is totally different from the significance of the Decree Passive. And just as a quick preview: have you noticed how the Decree Passive is always explicitly mentioned as the reason why Sisters of Battle are all female, while on the other hand the text you are quoting, which as far as I can tell doesn't even have a name, is literally never mentioned as the reason why, or even related to, the fact all space marines are males?

 Lusall wrote:
It's stated in the fluff that they are his sons as part of the "Angels of Death" dogma (or whatever you want to call it).

I like the “whatever you want to call it”, as it further emphasize the difference between the Decree Passive (a text whose existence and context in-universe is clearly defined) and the texts you are referencing (i.e. flavor text for rulebooks and codecies whose existence, context and relevance in-universe are completely unknown.
They don't even have a name, for crying out loud!

 Lusall wrote:
My point is, if the echlisarchy is going to go by the letter (ie, creating an army of women because they can't have "men" under arms), and that's just the byzantine way they do things in the Imperium...you don't think that it would be then weird for someone to go "Well I mean, gee. Of course. They're his sons, but there can be daughters too".

I sense that you are quite unaware of the context in which the Decree Passive was passed, and how the current situation came to be. Too bad, it's among the most interesting fluff in 40k, and that's why you don't understand what I am talking about.
The “Angel of Death” stuff is just about how awesome awesomesauce the marines are supposed to be, but there is absolutely no depth there. Well, it's a flavor text.
The Decree Passive happened in a very specific situation where the political balance of the Imperium was completely off-balance, and where there were a lot of conflicting needs. The parties involved had to :
- maintain the illusions that things followed the rules and laws
- reorganize the power balance between the different organizations of the Imperium
- and most importantly, deal with Sebastian Thor, a figure that they really really needed to have by their side as he was very very popular and could bring stability, but that they were also very wary off as he could be pretty easily considered a rebel. And it was really, really important for them not to encourage anyone to become a rebel. Beside, he didn't had any real place in the hierarchy of the Imperium. And to make thinks worse he was unruly and unwilling to take the job they needed him to take.

That is why stuff like the Decree Passive happened. It is not a case of someone randomly writing some stuff about how the Ecclesiarchy shouldn't have men under arm because “hey, why not, it sounds pretty cool”. The result of a political struggle between Thor, who didn't want to become Ecclesiarch, and the power that be, that needed him to become Ecclesiarch, along with the necessity to prevent abuses of the power that the position of Ecclesiarch gave like those that just happened…

 Lusall wrote:
All of this of course (again) ignores genetics part it. I know...I know. You're stuck on the "It's witchcraft" part of it, but like all sci-fi there is at least a small bit of reality that it's based.

“Being based in a small bit of reality” means it's okay to have a gland that allows you to learn the memories of anything you eat, but it is not okay to make women in “that kind” of supersoldier. Making them into other kind of super-humans (like, say, assassins) is perfectly fine, though. But it's because of this really needed small bit of reality.
I'm sorry, that is beyond preposterous.

The space marine creation process is “A wizard did it” therefore literally anything less ridiculous than the Omophagea is fair game. Having women became space marines is orders of magnitude less ridiculous than the Omophagea. It's not even ridiculous to begin with…

 Lusall wrote:
In my opinion (obviously, no one here is reading old dev studio people's minds) Sisters were made to be the female equivalent to space marines.

Well, that is just your opinion. Not sure what you expect me to do about it. I already stated I disagree with it, and I don't think using the same wargear makes Sisters some space marine. Is an Inquisitor with power armor/terminator armor and a bolgun riding in a land raider a “male space marine” because he uses the same wargear?

 Lusall wrote:
And unless that bit of fluff about only male space marines has also been retconned, what are we arguing?

I don't know about you, but I am arguing that this fluff is stupid and should be retconned.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm sorry, have you forgotten the perfectly valid hypotheses I suggested? If so, allow me to repeat:

1. The Space Marines and Primarchs were created by one man, the Emperor. Either because of his own misogyny (which should be in no way interpreted as indicative of the whole Imperium) or simply his incapability to bond Astartes gene-seed to female subjects, he only made male Marines.
1b. Due to the Imperium's reliance on dogma and tradition, as well as the fear of tampering with gene-seed or simple failure on attempts, no female Space Marines were successfully created, either because they were not given chance by the Chapters, or failed to accept the implants.

2. Geneseed may be linked exclusively to the Y chromosome.

3. All reference to Space Marines is as the Emperor's "sons" or "grandsons", implying male. Due to these traits, it may be commonly accepted in the Imperium that Space Marines are ONLY men due to these depictions, and it would be wrong to deviate from tradition.

That is hypotheses, i.e. fan interpretations, definitely not canon explanations. Very unlike the Decree Passive.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Could you explain how I am not, please?

Because what you say has no relation to my argument.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

There is literally one reason currently, and that reason is “The space magic from the space wizard to make space marines only work on space men and not on space women”. I'm sorry I don't feel that random arbitrary restriction compelling at all.

Please see above.

Okay. There is only one canon reason currently.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of course, the same thing applies - "a badly written space law from the space government was bypassed by space church and somehow no-one cared that they had a full space army, which the space law was passed to prevent, so really, why do they even have the space law when what it stood for is so easily circumvented".

Just like Lusal, part of the problem is that you actually don't know much about the Decree Passive. Why did they had the law passed? Because they needed to disband the Frateris Militia after all the abuse Goge Vandire had done. Too much concentration of power. Why did they allow for the law to be bypassed? Because Sebastian Thor was enough in a position of power that he could get away with it, and because the Daughters of the Emperor had just killed the traitor Vandire themselves, proving that they were reliable and valorous. And you know what? None of this is fan-made. This is all stuff that were explicitly written in official Games Workshop publications.
Try to give the same details and explanation about “The space magic from the space wizard to make space marines only work on space men and not on space women” without resorting to fan-made stuff. You will see you cannot.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And I quote - I'm sorry I don't feel that random arbitrary restriction compelling at all.

I don't know if actually learning about it changed your mind, but this kind of politics and power play are for me among the most interesting part of 40k. It is definitely not random, it derives from very specific events and very specific situation of the Imperium. It is quite intrinsically linked to one of the event that was the most significant in shaping the Imperium as we know it today after the Heresy. Something that I wish was much more expanded about. While we know somewhat what happened to the Ecclesiarchy and the Officio Assassinorum after the Reign of Blood, we have very few information on what happened to the Administratum after it, even though there very certainly was a lot of reform, given how Vandire was originally Master of the Administratum.


P.S. : Did I mention that one of the first things that happened after Vandire was killed was they set up a trial for Sebastian Thor? See, that's what I explained above: he was still not part of the power structure of the Imperium, and yet he had led the people to resist Vandire. As such they really had to clear his name as not a rebel before they could promote him. And it really helped that he had never called for or participated in any violent act, else he might have been executed instead of become Ecclersiarch and the Imperium would be VERY different from the one we have now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I feel like quite the nerd but I oh so love this kind of lore. The 40k lore that speaks of normal humans is the best 40k fluff, much more interesting imo than all this “Our primarch was super strong and will come back in the end to save us”…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lusall wrote:
Allow me to point out the particular words here. Son. Male. As in...the gender.

Those words that you didn't use about Space Marines? Yeah. Well, maybe the Emperor of Mankind only reigns over the men too? As I explain below, the significance of the text you are quoting is totally different from the significance of the Decree Passive. And just as a quick preview: have you noticed how the Decree Passive is always explicitly mentioned as the reason why Sisters of Battle are all female, while on the other hand the text you are quoting, which as far as I can tell doesn't even have a name, is literally never mentioned as the reason why, or even related to, the fact all space marines are males?

Actually, I believe you linked an article which mentions women can't be Space Marines? Canon doesn't need to fully explain - if it did, I would expect to see something I the canon explaining how Leman Russ Battle Tanks are combat capable vehicles, and how Space Marine flyers are actually capable to flight.

 Lusall wrote:
It's stated in the fluff that they are his sons as part of the "Angels of Death" dogma (or whatever you want to call it).

I like the “whatever you want to call it”, as it further emphasize the difference between the Decree Passive (a text whose existence and context in-universe is clearly defined) and the texts you are referencing (i.e. flavor text for rulebooks and codecies whose existence, context and relevance in-universe are completely unknown.
They don't even have a name, for crying out loud!

But it IS canon. Just as canonical as the Decree Passive, as it seems. Every time a character in a novel recites a verse about "sons" of the Emperor, THAT is canon. However, it's just so ubiquitous, it is overlooked as such.

Ignore it if you want, but under the same pretence, I'll just ignore the Decree Passive, okay?

 Lusall wrote:
All of this of course (again) ignores genetics part it. I know...I know. You're stuck on the "It's witchcraft" part of it, but like all sci-fi there is at least a small bit of reality that it's based.

“Being based in a small bit of reality” means it's okay to have a gland that allows you to learn the memories of anything you eat, but it is not okay to make women in “that kind” of supersoldier. Making them into other kind of super-humans (like, say, assassins) is perfectly fine, though. But it's because of this really needed small bit of reality.
I'm sorry, that is beyond preposterous.

The space marine creation process is “A wizard did it” therefore literally anything less ridiculous than the Omophagea is fair game. Having women became space marines is orders of magnitude less ridiculous than the Omophagea. It's not even ridiculous to begin with…

Whilst I may not completely agree with Lusall, I disagree with your logic.

There are obviously two or more kinds of supersoldier - Astartes and Assassin, for the purposes of this argument. Are they both supersoldiers? Yes. Are they the same? No. As hypothesised, geneseed may require the Y chromosome, unlike the Assassin modifications. That simple reason alone would allow women to be assassins, and only men to be Astartes. Not all supersoldiers are created equal.

Having the Decree Passive be written like a proper law (using "person" instead of gender specific pronouns) is more believable than someone exploiting it based on that colossal error. Oh, I'm sorry, we're in 40k - magic is real, and it's called "whatever GW want to happen".

 Lusall wrote:
And unless that bit of fluff about only male space marines has also been retconned, what are we arguing?

I don't know about you, but I am arguing that this fluff is stupid and should be retconned.

Why do you think it's stupid? Why is Sisters of Battle having a fluff reason to be mono-gender more valid than Space Marines having the same? Especially when there's just as much evidence to support both - the Decree versus the Creation of a Space Marine article.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm sorry, have you forgotten the perfectly valid hypotheses I suggested? If so, allow me to repeat:

1. The Space Marines and Primarchs were created by one man, the Emperor. Either because of his own misogyny (which should be in no way interpreted as indicative of the whole Imperium) or simply his incapability to bond Astartes gene-seed to female subjects, he only made male Marines.
1b. Due to the Imperium's reliance on dogma and tradition, as well as the fear of tampering with gene-seed or simple failure on attempts, no female Space Marines were successfully created, either because they were not given chance by the Chapters, or failed to accept the implants.

2. Geneseed may be linked exclusively to the Y chromosome.

3. All reference to Space Marines is as the Emperor's "sons" or "grandsons", implying male. Due to these traits, it may be commonly accepted in the Imperium that Space Marines are ONLY men due to these depictions, and it would be wrong to deviate from tradition.

That is hypotheses, i.e. fan interpretations, definitely not canon explanations. Very unlike the Decree Passive.

However, alongside my interpretations (as I will concede) is the canon evidence of the Creation of a Space Marine article.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Could you explain how I am not, please?

Because what you say has no relation to my argument.

Why? I merely reiterated what you said.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

There is literally one reason currently, and that reason is “The space magic from the space wizard to make space marines only work on space men and not on space women”. I'm sorry I don't feel that random arbitrary restriction compelling at all.

Please see above.

Okay. There is only one canon reason currently.

Which is the same amount of canon support as, you guessed, the Decree Passive. When both reasons exist, I cannot see why one is valid, and the other not.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of course, the same thing applies - "a badly written space law from the space government was bypassed by space church and somehow no-one cared that they had a full space army, which the space law was passed to prevent, so really, why do they even have the space law when what it stood for is so easily circumvented".

Just like Lusal, part of the problem is that you actually don't know much about the Decree Passive. Why did they had the law passed? Because they needed to disband the Frateris Militia after all the abuse Goge Vandire had done. Too much concentration of power. Why did they allow for the law to be bypassed? Because Sebastian Thor was enough in a position of power that he could get away with it, and because the Daughters of the Emperor had just killed the traitor Vandire themselves, proving that they were reliable and valorous. And you know what? None of this is fan-made. This is all stuff that were explicitly written in official Games Workshop publications.
Try to give the same details and explanation about “The space magic from the space wizard to make space marines only work on space men and not on space women” without resorting to fan-made stuff. You will see you cannot.

Thank you for assuming I haven't actually read my copy of the Sisters of Battle codex. However, I have read it, and I still believe my point is valid.

The law was passed to prevent military units under direct command of the Ecclesiarchy, yet because someone used gender specific pronouns, they went ahead and STILL created military units under direct command of the Ecclesiarchy. And no-one even batted an eyelid when they broke exactly what the Decree stood for. I'm sorry, but I do not see that as any more rational than the Creation of a Space Marine article which is just as vague as any of the following:
Working Space Marine aircraft
Psychic powers
Mechanically flawed Leman Russes
How strong is plascrete, plasteel, rockcrete, ferrocrete etc etc

If the canon says it doesn't work on women, it doesn't work on women. That's enough for me.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And I quote - I'm sorry I don't feel that random arbitrary restriction compelling at all.

I don't know if actually learning about it changed your mind, but this kind of politics and power play are for me among the most interesting part of 40k. It is definitely not random, it derives from very specific events and very specific situation of the Imperium. It is quite intrinsically linked to one of the event that was the most significant in shaping the Imperium as we know it today after the Heresy. Something that I wish was much more expanded about. While we know somewhat what happened to the Ecclesiarchy and the Officio Assassinorum after the Reign of Blood, we have very few information on what happened to the Administratum after it, even though there very certainly was a lot of reform, given how Vandire was originally Master of the Administratum.


P.S. : Did I mention that one of the first things that happened after Vandire was killed was they set up a trial for Sebastian Thor? See, that's what I explained above: he was still not part of the power structure of the Imperium, and yet he had led the people to resist Vandire. As such they really had to clear his name as not a rebel before they could promote him. And it really helped that he had never called for or participated in any violent act, else he might have been executed instead of become Ecclersiarch and the Imperium would be VERY different from the one we have now.

I feel like quite the nerd but I oh so love this kind of lore. The 40k lore that speaks of normal humans is the best 40k fluff, much more interesting imo than all this “Our primarch was super strong and will come back in the end to save us”…

No, I agree. I absolutely enjoy that element of the Sisters. It does reflect the nature of the Imperium well, and is a fun reason to have a mono-gender faction. And human centric lore is easily some of the best.

However, that doesn't mean I see the Creation of a Space Marine article as bad - I support them equally, and believe wholeheartedly both factions should be monogender. Feel free to disregard that, but canon supports both - just one is better written and more fleshed out than the other, but that does not affect the validity of said canon in any way.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

So, if we can't judge Guard training methods, why do you compare them to modern ones, namely the male/female physical tests? If you didn't judge them, then your point about IRL studies is irrelevant as the conditions of that study were not met in the 40k universe.

I am attempting to show that our universe should have as much bearing on the 40k one as other fiction universes have on the 40k one - ie, they don't.

Conditions of the study? The study is that women burn out faster than men when soldiering.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But you haven't answered my question: HOW does a Space Marine move faster than the speed of sound? HOW do Orks manifest a gestalt field? HOW can Space Marine aircraft such as the Stormtalon and Stormraven take off and fly with any degree of aerodynamics? No fictional explanation is given for these, yet you accept them.
Regardless, I use my fictional answer to the female guardsman issue - females are functionally the same as males in a warlike environment in the 40k universe, and can be deployed in exactly the same positions as men, as GW show.
Done.

So enjoy your fan-fiction. I'm not asking you to prove something to me.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Quote - "as much sense" - so females CAN be deployed in the same positions as men in the Imperial Guard?

I never said otherwise. My argument is that they shouldn't be, not that they can't.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Boneville wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But unlike other mixed gender factions, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the Space Marines are male - which I believe I mentioned in the Female Space Marine thread - which also reflect the dogmatic and byzantine nature of the Imperium.

As for the Sisters, the Decree Passive is the only thing stopping them being male. Cut the Decree, and then men can join.

So, why should the Decree be held sancrosanct and cannot be changed, but the various reasons as to why a Space Marine is male should be?

The problem with this is that all the reasons are stated are in universe explanations. These can be entirely rewritten, just like other things has been rewritten.

For example the whole necron background were rewritten and the ctan shattered into pieces.

The same goes for the decree. you can rewrite it to be a matter of interpretation where one part of the ecchlesiarchy takes it literally thus employing the sisters, but one group interpretates it as no standing army but the preachers and missionarier should have the means to "defend" themselves, thus leading to enough arms to be coonsidered a standing army in everything but name, with the important bit of explicitly being for "self defense". Then you have an opening for a schism in the ecchlisiarchy as a whole.

the same goes for space marines. My point being you can make these things without losing the identity of the already existing chapters/factions if you want. Just because female space marines are added, that doesnt mean all the already existing chapters becomes genderswapped.

Thank you for essentially repeating what I said.

Yes, it CAN be rewritten. Should it? Not in my opinion. Marines are fine as all male, Sisters are fine as all female. Should Sisters receive more attention from GW? Yes.

(And yes, making a small group of a mono-gender faction the opposite gender DOES make the faction lose identity. What if there were an all-male order of "Sisters"? A group of peaceful, pacifist Orks? Tyranids that didn't follow the Hive Mind and didn't have animal instincts?
These all break set rules of fluff of their faction, and it does lessen the identity of it. Because at that point, are they really what they were? Is a pacifistic, peaceful, caring, weak pink skinned Ork still an Ork?)

I would say that i essentially didnt repeat what you said. I showed an exapmle where you can have the sisters faction and still open up another faction in the ecclisiarchy by just bringin up different interpretations that could happen opening up for more storiues in the ecclisiarchy.

This is not the same as the space marines who just blankly states NO GIRLS ALLOWED. There is no oppertunity for interpretation here, just a no.

My point was that you cant say there can be no female space marines because there exists an in universe explanation, because it can be rewritten. The fictional universe can be written anyway anytime so if the only limitation on female space marines is the fluff says no, and the fluff can be rewritten, then what is the problem here? Why cant there be female space marines? Non hive mind tyranids? Peaceful orks?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Actually, I believe you linked an article which mentions women can't be Space Marines?

Have you read it? I linked an article that explicitly says that canonically, the reason is “A wizard did it”. Not some text about marines being sons that is applied over-zealously.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But it IS canon.

Way to be missing the point. See just above.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry, we're in 40k - magic is real, and it's called "whatever GW want to happen".

Have you even glanced at the page about “A wizard did it” I linked to? Because that's my point: just saying “A wizard did it” is a very convenient way to justify anything, and could just as easily be used to justify the opposite.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why do you think it's stupid?

Because it throws a random arbitrary limitation for no reason, and I don't like this limitation.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why is Sisters of Battle having a fluff reason to be mono-gender more valid than Space Marines having the same?

If you understood my position, what I am saying is that the fluff reason for Sisters of Battle to be mono-gender is directly linked to a really nice piece of the history of the Imperium that illustrate some of the most interesting aspects of the setting (and yet sadly one of the least developed currently too), while the lore justification for space marines being all male is literally ONE sentence in a WD article that has absolutely no relation with any other aspect of the lore and that just amounts to “A wizard did it”.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
However, alongside my interpretations (as I will concede) is the canon evidence of the Creation of a Space Marine article.

I am not sure why you are telling me when I am the one who mentioned it first…

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why? I merely reiterated what you said.

No you didn't. You said something completely different from what I said. What I said was “[…]If you want to change any IP, you don't need to convince the current fans of the IP.[…]”. What you answered was “If one was to create Female Space Marines (thus changing the IP), why should Sisters of Battle not receive the same treatment and become polygender too?” which had nothing to do with what I said. I also said “The fandom can complain all they want, that's all fair and perfectly understandable, but when they start pretending that not taking their preferences in consideration was morally reprehensible, that's when they become entitled little crybullies.” and you answered with “After all, if GW decided to make male SoB, anyone who complained would be "entitled little crybabies", seeing as GW own the IP for Sisters.”. Reading failure much? And again, the whole reason why you wrote this is because you assumed I was against male Sisters of Battle.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Okay. There is only one canon reason currently.

Which is the same amount of canon support as, you guessed, the Decree Passive. When both reasons exist, I cannot see why one is valid, and the other not.

I am still amazed at the amount of time and dedication several of you devote and display (respectively) to this topic and debating it between a few consistent parties. This isn't sarcastic, this is my genuine "harumph" of mild astonishment of the investment being made here.

deathmagiks wrote:
I am still amazed at the amount of time and dedication several of you devote and display (respectively) to this topic and debating it between a few consistent parties. This isn't sarcastic, this is my genuine "harumph" of mild astonishment of the investment being made here.

Well who doesn't like ham-fisting a controversial discussion about women in the world at large into our pastime hobby with toy soldiers?

See...that's the problem. You think it's stupid. And I respect that, that's your opinion. But you're applying your own bias and demanding that someone else change their IP. Essentially, you're demanding the artist change the painting to fit your taste.

I've said a million times, I don't care if you (as in anyone) have female Space Marines in your little slice of 40K. But demanding it in the fluff proper because you think it's stupid shouldn't be a valid enough reason for it to happen.

As this is entirely based on opinion (even your argument that female space marines don't change/ruin anything), I'll simply finish with this. Sisters of Battle were created to be the female version of space marines. They retconned female space marines out of the fluff early on (there were female models in old days). Then retconned some fluff about some guy reading the rules and going "Ah! AH! Says no -men- under arms! Ahaha!" and boom, now we can have female "space marines" in the game which our fans have been clamoring for.

You call it this amazing piece of fluff. I call it lazy writing. It's literally the kind of thing where one of our fellow nerds is reading the 40K rule book and goes "Well see, it says you can charge up to 7 inches, not down 7 inches". Seriously, why would the Imperium suddenly go "Well gee, you found the loophole! You can keep your army!" when it's so freaking angsty about checks and balances? Of course, that goes into a different argument about the state of the current fluff, but that's a different argument.

Ginsu33 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

So, if we can't judge Guard training methods, why do you compare them to modern ones, namely the male/female physical tests? If you didn't judge them, then your point about IRL studies is irrelevant as the conditions of that study were not met in the 40k universe.

I am attempting to show that our universe should have as much bearing on the 40k one as other fiction universes have on the 40k one - ie, they don't.

Conditions of the study? The study is that women burn out faster than men when soldiering.

No, the conditions of the study being that women from OUR universe were used. You are talking about the result of the study. Seeing as the women in the 40k universe are not the same as our women, why on earth can we expect the result to be the same? The 40k universe barely obeys the laws of physics, let alone gender.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But you haven't answered my question: HOW does a Space Marine move faster than the speed of sound? HOW do Orks manifest a gestalt field? HOW can Space Marine aircraft such as the Stormtalon and Stormraven take off and fly with any degree of aerodynamics? No fictional explanation is given for these, yet you accept them.
Regardless, I use my fictional answer to the female guardsman issue - females are functionally the same as males in a warlike environment in the 40k universe, and can be deployed in exactly the same positions as men, as GW show.
Done.

So enjoy your fan-fiction. I'm not asking you to prove something to me.

Why is your statement anything more than fanfiction?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Quote - "as much sense" - so females CAN be deployed in the same positions as men in the Imperial Guard?

I never said otherwise. My argument is that they shouldn't be, not that they can't.

And why shouldn't they be, if you admit they can?

Boneville wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Boneville wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But unlike other mixed gender factions, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the Space Marines are male - which I believe I mentioned in the Female Space Marine thread - which also reflect the dogmatic and byzantine nature of the Imperium.

As for the Sisters, the Decree Passive is the only thing stopping them being male. Cut the Decree, and then men can join.

So, why should the Decree be held sancrosanct and cannot be changed, but the various reasons as to why a Space Marine is male should be?

The problem with this is that all the reasons are stated are in universe explanations. These can be entirely rewritten, just like other things has been rewritten.

For example the whole necron background were rewritten and the ctan shattered into pieces.

The same goes for the decree. you can rewrite it to be a matter of interpretation where one part of the ecchlesiarchy takes it literally thus employing the sisters, but one group interpretates it as no standing army but the preachers and missionarier should have the means to "defend" themselves, thus leading to enough arms to be coonsidered a standing army in everything but name, with the important bit of explicitly being for "self defense". Then you have an opening for a schism in the ecchlisiarchy as a whole.

the same goes for space marines. My point being you can make these things without losing the identity of the already existing chapters/factions if you want. Just because female space marines are added, that doesnt mean all the already existing chapters becomes genderswapped.

Thank you for essentially repeating what I said.

Yes, it CAN be rewritten. Should it? Not in my opinion. Marines are fine as all male, Sisters are fine as all female. Should Sisters receive more attention from GW? Yes.

(And yes, making a small group of a mono-gender faction the opposite gender DOES make the faction lose identity. What if there were an all-male order of "Sisters"? A group of peaceful, pacifist Orks? Tyranids that didn't follow the Hive Mind and didn't have animal instincts?
These all break set rules of fluff of their faction, and it does lessen the identity of it. Because at that point, are they really what they were? Is a pacifistic, peaceful, caring, weak pink skinned Ork still an Ork?)

I would say that i essentially didnt repeat what you said. I showed an exapmle where you can have the sisters faction and still open up another faction in the ecclisiarchy by just bringin up different interpretations that could happen opening up for more storiues in the ecclisiarchy.

This is not the same as the space marines who just blankly states NO GIRLS ALLOWED. There is no oppertunity for interpretation here, just a no.

My point was that you cant say there can be no female space marines because there exists an in universe explanation, because it can be rewritten. The fictional universe can be written anyway anytime so if the only limitation on female space marines is the fluff says no, and the fluff can be rewritten, then what is the problem here? Why cant there be female space marines? Non hive mind tyranids? Peaceful orks?

BUT the reason that the Sisters of Battle even exist is because of the Decree - the Decree which prevents men from joining. You add in men to the Sisters, and now there's no reason ALL Orders can't have men. Sisters have just the same NO as Space Marines.

So if fluff can be rewritten, by bother even making a point in Dakka Background if you can bypass the actual lore by saying "it can be rewritten"?
You can't have female Space Marines because the fluff specifically says not.
Non-Hive Mind/Synapse Tyranids are said to "collapse into disarray" - they would be effectively useless without it. So without it, they effectively cease to exist as a force. I think that's a fairly good explanation.
If an Ork loses all "Orky" qualities, by what right are they an Ork? They exist, but they are no longer an Ork, because being warmongering, violent, uncaring, strong green-skinned (the opposite of my example) is INTRINSIC to being an Ork.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Actually, I believe you linked an article which mentions women can't be Space Marines?

Have you read it? I linked an article that explicitly says that canonically, the reason is “A wizard did it”. Not some text about marines being sons that is applied over-zealously.

Actually, canonically, it says "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types." Not "a wizard did it". That's about as straight to the point as it gets - genetically, women are incapable, according to the article you linked.

Please use the correct quotes, if you're going to berate me for not doing the same.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But it IS canon.

Way to be missing the point. See just above.

No, it IS still canon, because the characters ALL refer, without fail, to Astartes as MALE. Not gender neutral - male. Your linked article just supports the same thing - "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry, we're in 40k - magic is real, and it's called "whatever GW want to happen".

Have you even glanced at the page about “A wizard did it” I linked to? Because that's my point: just saying “A wizard did it” is a very convenient way to justify anything, and could just as easily be used to justify the opposite.

And I quote you - "very convenient way to justify anything" - so, I can use the Wizard Did It card on the Sisters' organisation too? I mean, you happily ignore the canon you yourself linked - "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types." What is different between that and the Decree?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why do you think it's stupid?

Because it throws a random arbitrary limitation for no reason, and I don't like this limitation.

What is to stop me from saying "The Decree Passive is a random arbitrary limitation which has no reason, so I don't think it should exist."
I don't think your response answers my question at all, but I can't push you.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why is Sisters of Battle having a fluff reason to be mono-gender more valid than Space Marines having the same?

If you understood my position, what I am saying is that the fluff reason for Sisters of Battle to be mono-gender is directly linked to a really nice piece of the history of the Imperium that illustrate some of the most interesting aspects of the setting (and yet sadly one of the least developed currently too), while the lore justification for space marines being all male is literally ONE sentence in a WD article that has absolutely no relation with any other aspect of the lore and that just amounts to “A wizard did it”.

No, the article you linked states a perfect valid reason that has no reference to wizards, and is purely genetic - "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types." Is genetics and biology sexist now?
And why should the Space Marine one be any less important than the Sisters one? They're both canon. If quantity of fluff matters more, then I guess there's a lot of alien races that don't exist because the GW didn't write more about them...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
However, alongside my interpretations (as I will concede) is the canon evidence of the Creation of a Space Marine article.

I am not sure why you are telling me when I am the one who mentioned it first…

And is also ignoring the canon evidence presented in their own article - "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why? I merely reiterated what you said.

No you didn't. You said something completely different from what I said. What I said was “[…]If you want to change any IP, you don't need to convince the current fans of the IP.[…]”. What you answered was “If one was to create Female Space Marines (thus changing the IP), why should Sisters of Battle not receive the same treatment and become polygender too?” which had nothing to do with what I said. I also said “The fandom can complain all they want, that's all fair and perfectly understandable, but when they start pretending that not taking their preferences in consideration was morally reprehensible, that's when they become entitled little crybullies.” and you answered with “After all, if GW decided to make male SoB, anyone who complained would be "entitled little crybabies", seeing as GW own the IP for Sisters.”. Reading failure much? And again, the whole reason why you wrote this is because you assumed I was against male Sisters of Battle.

I am sorry to disappoint, but the only person assuming here is you. I kindly ask that you stop accusing me of something I've not done.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Okay. There is only one canon reason currently.

Which is the same amount of canon support as, you guessed, the Decree Passive. When both reasons exist, I cannot see why one is valid, and the other not.

I explained a dozen time already the difference between the reason that is “A wizard did it” and the reason that is one of consequence from a huge, very detailed, very interesting event with a myriad of other implications for the setting. But yeah, let's pretend that it is a question of number. 1 = 1.

Why should one canon be more valid than another? It is stated as outright fact in the article you linked, nothing to do with wizards, and in just the same tone it affirms that Space Marine Neophytes need to be taken young - "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types." How is that at all a nebulous quote? It is solid, stated fact. Why is it so malleable to you, yet the Decree Passive, which is the ONLY reason Sisters can't have men, considered so sacrosanct? I think there's a bit of a double standard.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Thank you for assuming I haven't actually read my copy of the Sisters of Battle codex.

I didn't assume you had not read the Sisters of Battle codex. I assumed you didn't knew the event we were talking about, because WHAT YOU WROTE DELIBERATELY IGNORED SOME OF THE OFFICIAL CANON. From Codex: Sisters of Battle from 2nd edition, notably. That you have not read. Have you?

Sorry to disappoint, but I have. And I figured if you'd insert some reference about a wizard doing something, and actually ignoring the given reason ("They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.") I could speak in much the same way. And really, how wrong am I?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The law was passed to prevent military units under direct command of the Ecclesiarchy, yet because someone used gender specific pronouns, they went ahead and STILL created military units under direct command of the Ecclesiarchy. And no-one even batted an eyelid when they broke exactly what the Decree stood for.

And there is an official canon explanation for why no one batted an eyelid. Can you find that official canon explanation all by yourself? Hint, I ALREADY MENTIONED IT EXPLICITLY . So if you cannot find it then discussing with you is not worth my time and I'll stop. What good is it if you don't even read what I write?

What is the use in ignoring the canon you yourself provide? I'll provide it again, for the sake of the argument - "They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types." Is that not enough canon for you, and why do you see it as unworthy in your eyes?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
However, that doesn't mean I see the Creation of a Space Marine article as bad

I think you meant “that very specific one sentence from the Creation of a Space Marine” sentence, because unlike the Decree Passive, it has no relationship at all with any other part of the article, let alone any other piece of fluff. That is, once again, to show the amount of fluff that would be impacted by a retcon on female marines : ONE sentence. Not the whole WD article, not even two sentence of the WD article, literally ONE sentence from ONE article. Everything else works fine after the change.
Changing the Sisters to be mixed gender could work, but one would have to rewrite the whole Reign of Blood storyline to make it work. I mean, one could change the original cult of the Daughters of the Emperor to a mixed-gender one, and then the Decree Passive to just “The church cannot have an army except for the “Brides and Husbands of the Emperor”, but then you loose all the flavorful part of the “word of the law” vs “spirit of the law” thing. So if you want to keep all the flavor in, it requires a lot of work. Is it possible? Sure. But given that there is no-one pushing for it and that it requires a lot of work to rewrite stuff, while there are lots of people pushing for female space marines and it require no efforts at all (again, just remove one sentence and VOILA, you are done)…

Yes, you might delete a sentence from the Space Marine lore and make them multigender. I won't dispute that.
But all I have to do is change the word "men-under-arms" to "persons-under-arms", and then Sisters don't even exist at all.
One WORD. Everything else works fine after that change.

Just one word - their entire existence is based on the fact that someone (let's say, A Wizard Did It) didn't take a class in Law or RAW, and said men instead of the gender neutral "persons". And you say Space Marine genes being incompatible with women is a stretch.

I would like to confirm again that I like Sisters of Battle. They make sense in lore, they are a unique presence on the table, far more deserving of a Faction slot than Grey Knights and Deathwatch, who I also have and equally enjoy. My argument here is purely in the sake of showing that Space Marines and Sisters of Battle have equal right to be mono-gender.

I have a rule: I ignore anybody's point if they link back to TVTropes as their citation.



The gyst of this entire debate is that nobody gives any sort of gak about women in 40K when it comes down to it. You have 5% of the gaming population who WILL NOT PLAY any army unless there is a female option, even if it's the same 3 models over and over and over. On the other hand, you have the 5% who will not run female models at all, unless there is some semblance of fluff background that necessitates female models. The rest of us? It's really irrelevant, with the exception of squashing a large amount of fluff because reasons. The rest is just the same bickering back and forth.

You forgot me. I play armies with no women at all (Chaos Space Marines is my main army, and I have a considerable amount.)

But I really really want an army with a decent amount of women who do not look stupid, and if it appeared, I would be likely to buy that army. They don't have to look like the lady in my avatar. I just want them to have armour that looks like armour.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You forgot me. I play armies with no women at all (Chaos Space Marines is my main army, and I have a considerable amount.)

But I really really want an army with a decent amount of women who do not look stupid, and if it appeared, I would be likely to buy that army. They don't have to look like the lade in my avatar. I just want them to have armour that looks like armour.

I fully support this. Beef up the Sisters' aesthetic, make it look and feel like proper power armour. And whilst we're at it, renew the entire Sisters' line. Emperor knows they need it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You forgot me. I play armies with no women at all (Chaos Space Marines is my main army, and I have a considerable amount.)

But I really really want an army with a decent amount of women who do not look stupid, and if it appeared, I would be likely to buy that army. They don't have to look like the lade in my avatar. I just want them to have armour that looks like armour.

Death Korps, Scions with their masks on (arguable, but lets be a bit extreme), Elysians with rebreather masks (and even then...) would probably fit the bill. Could even go with Cadian using FW Respirators.