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 Just Tony wrote:
You feel that the fluff should be rewritten to make every faction co-ed as to allow an even mix of female models in every army, correct? Wouldn't that basically render the differences thematically and aesthetically between SOB and SM obsolete?

Only if you think their sex is the only defining trait of those factions.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
You feel that the fluff should be rewritten to make every faction co-ed as to allow an even mix of female models in every army, correct? Wouldn't that basically render the differences thematically and aesthetically between SOB and SM obsolete?

Only if you think their sex is the only defining trait of those factions.

No, but their sex IS a defining trait, and nobody can debate that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, if in-universe doesn't count, why the double standard on the Decree Passive and the Creation of a Space Marine article?

Because of the relevant differences between those are out of universe, of course.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Allow me to reiterate it.
Without real life concerns and reasons of our world, such as representation of groups, why should Space Marine lore change?

Without reasons of our world, it's pretty hard to tell, because since the 40k world doesn't actually exists, well…
everything, I mean everything in 40k happens because of real life reasons. Everything. Like for instance “Some GW writer wants to make a story that's compelling to read of real-life” or “GW wants to sell miniatures in real life”…

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Funny, but I don't see any of the latter part of your response in there.

Yeah, apparently you didn't quote the right part. I may get access to my codex this week-end, if so I'll post the relevant quotes.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Does that matter?

Yes it does, for out of universe reasons.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There are two mono-gender factions, both opposing, and if Space Marine saturation was reduced and the Sisters getting more love and time, what would be the problem?

And what if the sun turned into an ice-cream too? We will never see the Sisters developed nearly as much as the marines. It is even worth mentioning how some codex (can't remember which one, maybe it's rather the WD article that got all the nice fluff in it) don't have much deviation between orders, while marines have a HUGE diversity among chapters, which means marines will always get more variety than Sisters…

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
That happened in what, one crappy novel written over 15 years ago?

I thought it was hinted at in a recent codex. Still more than for any other faction in the lore except maybe dark eldar, no?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
In-universe though, the distinction between a Space Wolf and an Ultramarine is a question of fur pelts and helmet crests. Fundamentally they're the same thing.

That's like saying every human soldier is the same because they are all human and all soldiers. Okay, that is your opinion and I respect it. But I definitely do not share it. Space Marines subfactions are way more differentiated by GW than for any other faction. The only one that should be even more varied according to the fluff would be IG but those differences are never expanded around the way they are for Space Marines.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
You feel that the fluff should be rewritten to make every faction co-ed as to allow an even mix of female models in every army, correct? Wouldn't that basically render the differences thematically and aesthetically between SOB and SM obsolete?

Only if you think their sex is the only defining trait of those factions.

No, but their sex IS a defining trait, and nobody can debate that.

So that would make ONE defining trait away. Not make all the numerous other thematic and aesthetic different suddenly become obsolete.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I thought it was hinted at in a recent codex. Still more than for any other faction in the lore except maybe dark eldar, no?

There is a brief passage where a Space Wolf makes a pass at a woman. Last mistake he and his fellows ever make I think.

But then Space Wolves break the mould in most ways.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
You feel that the fluff should be rewritten to make every faction co-ed as to allow an even mix of female models in every army, correct? Wouldn't that basically render the differences thematically and aesthetically between SOB and SM obsolete?

Only if you think their sex is the only defining trait of those factions.

No, but their sex IS a defining trait, and nobody can debate that.

So that would make ONE defining trait away. Not make all the numerous other thematic and aesthetic different suddenly become obsolete.

But if you ARE taking away the main difference between them, sex, then you are left with two mixed gender power armor armies with bolters, Rhinos, and the like. You basically guarantee nobody would touch Sisters with a ten foot pole in that case, as they'd simply be cheaper worse Marines at that point. Currently the ONLY draw Sisters have is their background as a mainly female army, which is easily run as a completely female army by not running any of the available male models from the Codex. As a Sisters fan, I figured you above anyone else would understand that, but then I see your sig and realize that's not the case...

If the only draw Sisters have is that they are all female that is a problem in of itself.

I certainly do not play a faction simply because of its sexual composition.

 Anemone wrote:
If the only draw Sisters have is that they are all female that is a problem in of itself.

I certainly do not play a faction simply because of its sexual composition.

GW doesn't seem to mix in females very much into its product line or faction line. The Eldar and Dark Eldar are about the only sprues that have a mixed gender torso selection. The only other time females seem to appear is when in all female units or forces like SoB, Howling Banshees, or Wyches. Ok, maybe Banshees or Wyches are not literally 100% female but they are predominantly female, and for Wyches the females are clearly in charge. Basically GW has Amazon depictions of women.

Just Tony wrote:

Boneville wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Boneville, I'm not going to quote your copious walls of text, I'm just going to sum up a few points.

You feel that the fluff should be rewritten to make every faction co-ed as to allow an even mix of female models in every army, correct? Wouldn't that basically render the differences thematically and aesthetically between SOB and SM obsolete?

If so, how would you feel if they got the license and permission to start a Drac army in 40K? They are explicitly asexual, reproducing without binary reproduction, and have no sexes OR gender roles. Would that need to be rewritten to cater to your wants? Would you basically say everything Larry B. Longyear wrote in the fiction of his creation?

I'll wait til you get back to me on that.

More or less correct, i wouldnt say every army because there are exceptions. Tyranids is one where i dont feel that gender plays a role at all for example. For necrons there are regalias of queens like cleopatra that could make good models. But yes, the human factions i feel hasnt done enough with their gender limitations to warrant it wich is why i feel it should be changed.

I dont see a problem with the overlapping of the two factions as one is drawn from super soldiers genetically enhanced etc and addinmg space marines wouldnt necessarily mean that all current space marines get genderswapped but would allow for female space marine chapters and mixed ones of course, the other faction can then explore the religious themes of the ecclisiarchy, so i dont see the thematic and aesthetic overlap.

from my research on the drac, they seem to be written explicitly to be alien. i dont see how they would be rewritten considering the point was to be inhuman and alien to us. Much like the tyranids and daemons (although i have huge problems with slaanesh, and their "supposed" androgenous appereance) but more of a "mirror" being. The point has always been that the space marines always has been linked too humanity so they dont have that "pass".

Had the space marines been introduced as a separate hemaphroditic alien faction i wouldnt have a problem.

So an army of entirely male Amazons as someone makes the models able to be 50/50 ratios means someone will inevitably run nothing but one sex. We're not going to throw gender into it, since ANY model can identify as a gender different than their sex. Actually, that might be the best out for you, since you're looking for a reason to do this and it might work in the fluff. Y chromosome? Yep. Identifies as female? Check. Techically, that would make them female Space Marines, or you are invalidating the entire Trans community. You could even run them as The Rainbow Warriors just to make sure you have everything covered.

Past that, the part where someone told you about the Slayers. Same thing applies as far as that goes. You either need to accept the background as it is, or find wiggle room, like I gave you in the last paragraph.

That would make for a cool army i wont refute that, but that would be creating something else and not the female space marines as was the discussion. if someone would run these with only male or female models, well, they can do what they like the important part is that the option is presented both in official models and official lore.

Just saying its what the developer wanted is an extremely lazy way to dismiss a discussion, its what happened in video games for a long time now with a recent example being quiet in metal gear solid 5. just because the developers/writers wanted it that way doesnt give it a free pass or that everyone has to like their decision. by extension it also means that you cant criticise anything from 40k background regardless of who made it because, its what the writer wanted.

There should be no Female space marines and it seems the people that want there to be only want it for the sake of it.

 Boneville wrote:

Just Tony wrote:

Boneville wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Boneville, I'm not going to quote your copious walls of text, I'm just going to sum up a few points.

You feel that the fluff should be rewritten to make every faction co-ed as to allow an even mix of female models in every army, correct? Wouldn't that basically render the differences thematically and aesthetically between SOB and SM obsolete?

If so, how would you feel if they got the license and permission to start a Drac army in 40K? They are explicitly asexual, reproducing without binary reproduction, and have no sexes OR gender roles. Would that need to be rewritten to cater to your wants? Would you basically say everything Larry B. Longyear wrote in the fiction of his creation?

I'll wait til you get back to me on that.

More or less correct, i wouldnt say every army because there are exceptions. Tyranids is one where i dont feel that gender plays a role at all for example. For necrons there are regalias of queens like cleopatra that could make good models. But yes, the human factions i feel hasnt done enough with their gender limitations to warrant it wich is why i feel it should be changed.

I dont see a problem with the overlapping of the two factions as one is drawn from super soldiers genetically enhanced etc and addinmg space marines wouldnt necessarily mean that all current space marines get genderswapped but would allow for female space marine chapters and mixed ones of course, the other faction can then explore the religious themes of the ecclisiarchy, so i dont see the thematic and aesthetic overlap.

from my research on the drac, they seem to be written explicitly to be alien. i dont see how they would be rewritten considering the point was to be inhuman and alien to us. Much like the tyranids and daemons (although i have huge problems with slaanesh, and their "supposed" androgenous appereance) but more of a "mirror" being. The point has always been that the space marines always has been linked too humanity so they dont have that "pass".

Had the space marines been introduced as a separate hemaphroditic alien faction i wouldnt have a problem.

So an army of entirely male Amazons as someone makes the models able to be 50/50 ratios means someone will inevitably run nothing but one sex. We're not going to throw gender into it, since ANY model can identify as a gender different than their sex. Actually, that might be the best out for you, since you're looking for a reason to do this and it might work in the fluff. Y chromosome? Yep. Identifies as female? Check. Techically, that would make them female Space Marines, or you are invalidating the entire Trans community. You could even run them as The Rainbow Warriors just to make sure you have everything covered.

Past that, the part where someone told you about the Slayers. Same thing applies as far as that goes. You either need to accept the background as it is, or find wiggle room, like I gave you in the last paragraph.

That would make for a cool army i wont refute that, but that would be creating something else and not the female space marines as was the discussion. if someone would run these with only male or female models, well, they can do what they like the important part is that the option is presented both in official models and official lore.

Just saying its what the developer wanted is an extremely lazy way to dismiss a discussion, its what happened in video games for a long time now with a recent example being quiet in metal gear solid 5. just because the developers/writers wanted it that way doesnt give it a free pass or that everyone has to like their decision. by extension it also means that you cant criticise anything from 40k background regardless of who made it because, its what the writer wanted.

It does NOT give it a free pass, that is for sure. If you don't like it, don't spend money on it, don't follow it, don't support it. This whole 50/50 21st century gender/sex ratio applied to stuff that it doesn't apply to is everywhere right now. I collect Transformers, you should hear the push for human integration in a toyline based on giant robots from another planet who don't have sexual reproduction and wouldn't have any sort of need for gender or sex. Seems GW games aren't safe from this sort of pressure either. Wait, is that why Tomb Kings were cancelled? Not enough skeletons with clear female markers on them?

 Just Tony wrote:

 Boneville wrote:

Just Tony wrote:

Boneville wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Boneville, I'm not going to quote your copious walls of text, I'm just going to sum up a few points.

You feel that the fluff should be rewritten to make every faction co-ed as to allow an even mix of female models in every army, correct? Wouldn't that basically render the differences thematically and aesthetically between SOB and SM obsolete?

If so, how would you feel if they got the license and permission to start a Drac army in 40K? They are explicitly asexual, reproducing without binary reproduction, and have no sexes OR gender roles. Would that need to be rewritten to cater to your wants? Would you basically say everything Larry B. Longyear wrote in the fiction of his creation?

I'll wait til you get back to me on that.

More or less correct, i wouldnt say every army because there are exceptions. Tyranids is one where i dont feel that gender plays a role at all for example. For necrons there are regalias of queens like cleopatra that could make good models. But yes, the human factions i feel hasnt done enough with their gender limitations to warrant it wich is why i feel it should be changed.

I dont see a problem with the overlapping of the two factions as one is drawn from super soldiers genetically enhanced etc and addinmg space marines wouldnt necessarily mean that all current space marines get genderswapped but would allow for female space marine chapters and mixed ones of course, the other faction can then explore the religious themes of the ecclisiarchy, so i dont see the thematic and aesthetic overlap.

from my research on the drac, they seem to be written explicitly to be alien. i dont see how they would be rewritten considering the point was to be inhuman and alien to us. Much like the tyranids and daemons (although i have huge problems with slaanesh, and their "supposed" androgenous appereance) but more of a "mirror" being. The point has always been that the space marines always has been linked too humanity so they dont have that "pass".

Had the space marines been introduced as a separate hemaphroditic alien faction i wouldnt have a problem.

So an army of entirely male Amazons as someone makes the models able to be 50/50 ratios means someone will inevitably run nothing but one sex. We're not going to throw gender into it, since ANY model can identify as a gender different than their sex. Actually, that might be the best out for you, since you're looking for a reason to do this and it might work in the fluff. Y chromosome? Yep. Identifies as female? Check. Techically, that would make them female Space Marines, or you are invalidating the entire Trans community. You could even run them as The Rainbow Warriors just to make sure you have everything covered.

Past that, the part where someone told you about the Slayers. Same thing applies as far as that goes. You either need to accept the background as it is, or find wiggle room, like I gave you in the last paragraph.

That would make for a cool army i wont refute that, but that would be creating something else and not the female space marines as was the discussion. if someone would run these with only male or female models, well, they can do what they like the important part is that the option is presented both in official models and official lore.

Just saying its what the developer wanted is an extremely lazy way to dismiss a discussion, its what happened in video games for a long time now with a recent example being quiet in metal gear solid 5. just because the developers/writers wanted it that way doesnt give it a free pass or that everyone has to like their decision. by extension it also means that you cant criticise anything from 40k background regardless of who made it because, its what the writer wanted.

It does NOT give it a free pass, that is for sure. If you don't like it, don't spend money on it, don't follow it, don't support it. This whole 50/50 21st century gender/sex ratio applied to stuff that it doesn't apply to is everywhere right now. I collect Transformers, you should hear the push for human integration in a toyline based on giant robots from another planet who don't have sexual reproduction and wouldn't have any sort of need for gender or sex. Seems GW games aren't safe from this sort of pressure either. Wait, is that why Tomb Kings were cancelled? Not enough skeletons with clear female markers on them?

Maybe that pressure is everywhere because it is important and dont uphold to modern standards. If the robots didnt have gender why are they referred to in male pronouns with male voices, when as you said it shouldnt matter and they could have female voices instead.

Respect for intellectual property. You either have it or you don't.

Yeah, except in very explicit cases where in fiction they are specifically defined as genderless. Gobots did it right in that regard. What do female TFs look like? Roboboobs. What do female minis look like in 40K? Boob armor. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.

We're getting off topic with this, but the main issue is there is other fiction that you can get behind, other games that are integrated that you can play. You want to change it in 40K? Stop buying it, that's the only thing they understand. Well, until you realize how small of a group is fighting for this and that the blip of nonpurchases won't even be noticeable.

Mrs. Esterhouse wrote:Respect for intellectual property. You either have it or you don't.

You can still be respectful even if you disagree. I can respect an opinion but still think its wrong.

Just Tony wrote:Yeah, except in very explicit cases where in fiction they are specifically defined as genderless. Gobots did it right in that regard. What do female TFs look like? Roboboobs. What do female minis look like in 40K? Boob armor. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.

We're getting off topic with this, but the main issue is there is other fiction that you can get behind, other games that are integrated that you can play. You want to change it in 40K? Stop buying it, that's the only thing they understand. Well, until you realize how small of a group is fighting for this and that the blip of nonpurchases won't even be noticeable.

Female models do not have to be only boobs, it might be hard to do but not impossible.

We are disussing this game, the fact that other games exist has nothing to do with that.

So the order of the day is essentially conquest? Got it.

Only of you make it out to be.

Let's recap: There is 1 male only faction and 1 femal eonly faction. The rest are agender or mixed. What's the problem again?

 Matthew wrote:
Let's recap: There is 1 male only faction and 1 femal eonly faction. The rest are agender or mixed. What's the problem again?

They sort of have a "want their cake and eat it too" situation. So they want to change the male only faction (space marines) to be mixed gender while maintaining the female only faction of sisters of battle as it is.

 Matthew wrote:
Let's recap: There is 1 male only faction and 1 femal eonly faction. The rest are agender or mixed. What's the problem again?

Let's look at it. I just checked the GW website.

Male/Masculine only:

Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Blood Angels
Deathwatch
Space Marines (Technically all the SM factions are Space Marines, but each one individually gets more support than the SoB do so they definitely count)
Astra Militarum
Militarum Tempestus
Cult Mechanicus (This one and Skitarii could be in mixed because it is often hard to tell their gender, but whenever I take a close look at their body shape it seems masculine and the models are referred to as 'he' on their website etc so I'll slap occam's razor on this one)
Skitarii
Inquisition
Chaos Space Marines
Khorne Daemonkin
Necrons (The one that bothers me the least. They are obviously masculine skeletons, and feminine ones only exist in the background, but they are still skeletons).

Female/feminine only:
Adepta Sororitas (ancient metal-only faction, halfway to squatted already)

Mixed factions:
Eldar (Howling Banshees. The rest are all male models)
Dark Eldar (These are more mixed than I remember. I guess I should expect that from the lightly dressed space elves)
Harlequins (one of the models in the basic troop box; the rest are male)
Chaos Daemons (A dubious case since all models are either masculine or androgynous)
Tau (They have Shadowsun, I guess, and that one Ghostkeel pilot)

N/A:
Tyranids
Imperial Knights



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Let's recap: There is 1 male only faction and 1 femal eonly faction. The rest are agender or mixed. What's the problem again?

They sort of have a "want their cake and eat it too" situation. So they want to change the male only faction (space marines) to be mixed gender while maintaining the female only faction of sisters of battle as it is.

I'd be fine with SoB squatted (it feels like it is going that way at this point) if it meant more representation elsewhere. In fact, proper representation among IG (And non-token Eldar, pretty please?) would be enough for me. SM do not bother me too much personally though I can certainly see why they can get tiresome for others.

If I'm not mistaken, this is posted in the Background forums, right?

Astra Militarum are in the background unisex, same with Tempestus. Skitarii and Mechanicum are both unisex, same with inquisition. And skeletons don't really show genders? Also, you can't say Daemons are male...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And jesus christ, there are lots of female heads in the Eldar Guardian box! Almost half the Deldar models are female!

Some Daemons are clearly N/A, but some are quite clearly masculine (mainly Khorne ones) so they go in Mixed.

Certain factions are more well represented in the background, but it feels futile when you never actually get to see that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matthew wrote:

And jesus christ, there are lots of female heads in the Eldar Guardian box! Almost half the Deldar models are female!

I have assembled it. Not really. There are no female heads in the box, just a couple of torsos.

I'm not seeing how any of these are male nor female.

You're also placing human female traits on everything as a standard, even if you're looking at a biped, which is the only tie to humanity. Look at the animal kingdom, and how many male/female of the species are visibly different without looking at their genitalia? The problem is some people can't back up enough to take themselves out of their view.

 Just Tony wrote:
You're also placing human female traits on everything as a standard, even if you're looking at a biped, which is the only tie to humanity. Look at the animal kingdom, and how many male/female of the species are visibly different without looking at their genitalia? The problem is some people can't back up enough to take themselves out of their view.

We have also been shown various men and women of other factions. For example the eldar we know how women look like compared to men. Biggest difference beaing one has breasts the other has not. Then another thing is that almost all the factions in 40k is based on a human body structure, with little effort to really differentiate them in the way you describe between their genders.

More likely is that they are still so "human" that the real differences are miniscule.

 Matthew wrote:


I'm not seeing how any of these are male nor female.

In the middle rank, the one to the far left and the far right has really big breasts.

Which is kind of bad designwise but I suppose it is better than no representation at all (imagine having 'male space marines' look like normal ones except they have gargantuan pecs sculpted onto their breastplate).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Boneville wrote:
Then another thing is that almost all the factions in 40k is based on a human body structure, with little effort to really differentiate them in the way you describe between their genders.

In the specific case of Eldar, the men also tend to have masculine facial structures (see the Guardian models).

We are used to extremely exaggerated man-hulks like Marines so the difference seems minor, but it is very clearly there.

Okay, look at the fluff of the buyable factions: 1 male only, 1 female only, the rest mixed or agender. No problem there?

That has been disussed earlier in the thread.

If you read back a couple of pages you will most certainly find the answer to that.

Personally I have little problem with females who cannot be visibly discerned as such. The conception that any Fire Warrior can be either gender is fine to me, I prefer it to boob-plated Fire Warriors, though I would agree that an exposed Female and Male commander head would then be preferable.

But if there were Female Space Marines then, yes, I'd want them to largely be indiscernible from the Males in armour. The Characters and Leaders would, like many Marine ones, be discernible due to their tendency to not wear helmets.

I see no reason why the inability to tell a Male Marine apart from a Female Marine would be an argument against their existence.

Additionally saying that it all boils down to 'respect' for 'intellectual property' is ridiculous since that argument instantly negates the capacity for the critique of anything. If 'respect' for 'intellectual property' simply means accept anything created exactly as is then a great wealth of all discussions which have occurred on this site are excluded.

DAMNIT i lost the spread beat i had on the length of this thread!

That said, my side bet of making no progress sure seems to be coming along nicely.

By all means feel free to critique it. But trying to force your narrative into something created by another is not respecting intellectual property.