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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
We do know the damage it could take in the RPG's. Making most if not all or home made improvized weapons completely useless.

In the RPGs a Lasgun basically can't hurt a Marine at all, unless you get a crit (in which case it just does 1 wound anyway, and Marines can easily have 20+ maximum wounds).

They were made with GW oversight and I really don't see any reason to consider them any less canon. Their massive granularity increase (1-99 statlines instead of 1-9, etc) only seem to make them more accurate.

I have a proposal for IG armed with lasgun who face power armored infantry.

Aim for the lenses of the helmet and try to blind the sensors. Lasguns are light weapons capable of causing lethal damage to human-like beings with the amount of heat energy they impart with each shot. That amount of light hitting some sort of visual sensor is going to start messing it up pretty badly and prevent the Astartes or Sororitas from seeing properly..

He is much faster. He will shoot first, and he won't need to shoot twice.

IG never fight alone and they expect heavy casualties in every battle. Someone's lasgun will find its mark in the weight of fire.

They also have visual sensors on their boltguns (which is why they can fire from the hip so easily) linked to their helmets. Autosenses!

You mean they have a gun camera.

Then aim for that too.

Not sure why you thought their gun camera would suddenly present a new challenge.

I'd expect the light to be less of a concern than the heat; lasguns don't operate by blinding people, they operate by boiling bits of them and setting surrounding areas on fire. If you hit a power-armoured helmet's eye lens straight on you'd probably be more likely to mangle the sensor directly than damage it through excessive input.

(Not to mention depending on the mechanism by which the sensor operates it could well have safety tolerances/shut-offs for situations like wandering around in space and taking a glance at a nearby star with no atmosphere in the way)

 Pouncey wrote:
IG never fight alone

Ah so we're talking IG numbers? Then the marine can just shoot blind. He'll hit ten times out of ten anyway!

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd expect the light to be less of a concern than the heat; lasguns don't operate by blinding people, they operate by boiling bits of them and setting surrounding areas on fire. If you hit a power-armoured helmet's eye lens straight on you'd probably be more likely to mangle the sensor directly than damage it through excessive input.

(Not to mention depending on the mechanism by which the sensor operates it could well have safety tolerances/shut-offs for situations like wandering around in space and taking a glance at a nearby star with no atmosphere in the way)

Lasguns are not heat rays, they are lasers. They do their damage through overheating the impact site, but they're still using light to deliver that amount of heat. The visual sensor would be taking a huge hit of sudden brightness.

Admittedly, it may not be an issue. Space Marines use plasma weapons hot enough to melt their own power armor, and the reality of war in the 30th millennium when their tech was designed likely included a probability of incredibly bright lights. Their sensors may be capable of filtering out much of the brightness even though a modern camera would get messed-up.

Really though, I just realized. Lasguns. Are laser weapons. That deliver enough heat. To kill people.

The laws of physics dictate that for ever action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's where recoil in standard firearms comes from. Laser weapons obviously wouldn't have recoil as light has no mass to push kinetic energy back into the weapon, but they can't simply deliver lethal amounts of heat to a target without that equal and opposite reaction. According to what we know of laser weapons in real life and in theoretical physics, a laser weapon would not only deliver that heat to its source, but the "kickback" for lack of a better word would also cause the laser weapon to heat up as well. The rate of fire of a lasgun, combined with the amount of heat its delivering, would make this a very, very serious issue.

However, the creators of the lasgun were from the era when the Imperium embraced science and technological advancement. They would've been well aware of this issue, and designed the lasgun with sufficient cooling capabilities to handle the heat from battlefield use, as there is no use for an infantryman's rifle that they can no longer use after a short period of firing. They appear to have been effective in their design, as Guardsmen do not appear discomforted by their own weapons.

By shooting him.

You don't.

Dark Heresy does a great job portraying what it's like if a normal person went up against a Chaos/Vanilla Space marine. The rule of thumb is you run and you run fast because they're like Agents in the Matrix.

This.
As do the NLs Soul Hunter series of books.
Thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread

 Pouncey wrote:
The laws of physics dictate that for ever action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's where recoil in standard firearms comes from. Laser weapons obviously wouldn't have recoil as light has no mass to push kinetic energy back into the weapon, but they can't simply deliver lethal amounts of heat to a target without that equal and opposite reaction. According to what we know of laser weapons in real life and in theoretical physics, a laser weapon would not only deliver that heat to its source, but the "kickback" for lack of a better word would also cause the laser weapon to heat up as well. The rate of fire of a lasgun, combined with the amount of heat its delivering, would make this a very, very serious issue.

Uh, no, this is completely wrong. The "equal and opposite reaction" only applies to force and moving objects. A laser weapon will have negligible recoil because light has negligible momentum (it's complicated), there is no opposite reaction from the energy to a target. Lasers get hot because the process of generating the beam is not 100% efficient and creates a lot of waste heat as a side effect. A theoretical laser with 100% efficiency would have no such problem.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
It also did not specify what allegiance the space marine was on. My guess is that if there is a SM here now he will be send back to the past in order to change history.

If you were a member of the Ordo Chronos with a mind to alter history I'd think a random street in 2016 isn't the first place you'd pick (you'd be aiming for the Horus Heresy, at which point your Space Marine landing somewhere one of us could see him would be way off target and his mission wouldn't be particularly relevant anymore. The possibility that he'd decide to settle down and fix up the place and end up becoming the Emperor is remote, bizarre, and should probably not be considered.).

He could be a cabal agent trying to trying to prevent the grim dark cancer that is the IoM to be formed. Or he could be on a secret mission to supply the scientist that is going to be the emperor with the technology needed to build his super warriors, the agent could even be send here to ignite the anarchy before the unification wars. It might also be a CSM trying to implant the faith in tzeentch before the IoM could ever be formed. We just don't know.

(On a sidenote do you suppose the Ordo Chronos talks about time travel and the Heresy the way we talk about time travel and WWII?)

I don't know expected them to fix / prevent issues due to time mismatches when things drop out of the warp. Thus making sure that non sanctioned ideas of the past and future don't infect the IoM.
I have never considered them to be time travellers themselves.

Horus had slain the Emperor, but at the cost of his soul and the purpose of the Great Crusade. The Emperor planned to show Horus mercy. To give him a chance for repentance, but with his guard down he was no match for Horus. Chaos washed across the tattered remains of the Emperorless infant Imperium.

A group of rogue loyallists survived. The Imperial Truth wasn't perfect, but the reality of Horus's victory was far worse.

A quest was set upon, to collect an array of artifacts and to set events into motion. Into Backward motion.

One man completed this quest, and was able to return back to the Siege of Terra, materialising upon Horus barge. As he did so, the Emperor turned to face Horus, hoping to reason with his favoured son. Clearly there was a misunderstanding!

Too late, Horus began his attack. Our time traveller stood in his path, screaming "Emperor, please! See my mind." Moments before this strange man was obliterated by Horus's attack, the Emperor saw the dark vision of the future from which the traveller came and knew for sure Horus had to be destroyed.

Thanks to this man Horus was met in battle by the Emperor. His name: Ollanius Pius and in his memory the Ordo Chronos was formed.

Oh, and he also sent a spacemarine back to your house, 2016, to erase your knowledge of this post in the most brutal way possible.

^

 Pouncey wrote:
and the reality of war in the 30th millennium when their tech was designed likely included a probability of incredibly bright lights. Their sensors may be capable of filtering out much of the brightness even though a modern camera would get messed-up.

Yea that is the case, there are lots of instances of SM helmets dimming the brightness after a large explosion/flare of light. I don't know what happens when a lasgun shot hits right in the eye lens though. I would imagine it could definitely kill. I'd love to see more cases in the books of human infantry in sufficient numbers taking down Space Marines

A bit off topic but I'd like to see more cases generally of 30/40k heroes dying to more mundane circumstances than a rival Space Marine of the same rank killing them in single combat.

Well, I sneak out of my house whilst he is distracted murdering my street, head over to my workplace and retrieve the Mauser T-1918 we have there:


I then open up the armoury and locate the ammunition we have stored there and take the Mauser 13mm AP shot, then take a gun cleaning kit and get her prepped.

heading back home I set myself up in a concealed location, flanking the Marine and fire before relocating and firing again.
Rinse and repeat until he is dead.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I sneak out of my house whilst he is distracted murdering my street, head over to my workplace and retrieve the Mauser T-1918 we have there:


I then open up the armoury and locate the ammunition we have stored there and take the Mauser 13mm AP shot, then take a gun cleaning kit and get her prepped.

heading back home I set myself up in a concealed location, flanking the Marine and fire before relocating and firing again.
Rinse and repeat until he is dead.

He'd kill you 1000 times over before you manage to do all of that.

Me, I'd just roundhouse kick him in the head.

Do you guys really have all those guns around your home ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MarsNZ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I sneak out of my house whilst he is distracted murdering my street, head over to my workplace and retrieve the Mauser T-1918 we have there:


I then open up the armoury and locate the ammunition we have stored there and take the Mauser 13mm AP shot, then take a gun cleaning kit and get her prepped.

heading back home I set myself up in a concealed location, flanking the Marine and fire before relocating and firing again.
Rinse and repeat until he is dead.

He'd kill you 1000 times over before you manage to do all of that.

Me, I'd just roundhouse kick him in the head.

Don't worry his bolter only shoots 24" just stay 2mtr away from the dude and you will be fine ; )

Since the SM can only move 6" just walk away...

I'd take my twin katanas and jump down from the roof onto his head, while he is stunned I'd kick him staggering and then slice his head off.

'Heh... Nothing personal kid.'

 Pouncey wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
It would also penetrate Land Raider armour without much trouble since GW in with their infinite wisdom has stated that Land Raiders has the equivalent of 300mm steel armour, Which frankly is ludicrous. .

...Why the feth did GW's lore writers decide to give their futuristic super-indestructible tank an armor rating in units that currently exist? Even Star Trek knew to measure their computers' power in quads rather than a real unit of measurement so that no matter how advanced computers in real life got, no comparison was possible, allowing it to always seem amazingly powerful.

Follow-on question: After making that terrible decision, why did they not do cursory research into real life armor and at least make it similar to the material US battleships were retrofitted with that can take a direct hit from a 2,000lbs torpedo without any damage but a messed-up paint job?

Because chemistry still exists in the year 40,000 and they don't have any new elements to work with. But yes, we have better armor than that today. But we also have better weapons. Just accept that 40K is the retro-future and that US marines would massacre space marines because of GW's lack of vision. Just as US marines would slaughter stormtroopers or any other low-thought sci-fi troops. The Necrons are frankly 100X more horrifying than the space marines.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I sneak out of my house whilst he is distracted murdering my street, head over to my workplace and retrieve the Mauser T-1918 we have there:


I then open up the armoury and locate the ammunition we have stored there and take the Mauser 13mm AP shot, then take a gun cleaning kit and get her prepped.

heading back home I set myself up in a concealed location, flanking the Marine and fire before relocating and firing again.
Rinse and repeat until he is dead.

He'd kill you 1000 times over before you manage to do all of that.

Me, I'd just roundhouse kick him in the head.

He is coming up my street and approaching the front of my house, right? By the time he has reached my front door im out and close to a mile away, across the field and then into the residential area. By the time he is though my house ive either found transport or I am heading rapidly for my place of work. By the time he has my trail im long gone.
Know thy area

 oldzoggy wrote:
Do you guys really have all those guns around your home ?

Some of us do...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2640/504193.page#8971813

Yep, we do.

And let's face it, a Space Marine is tough to kill. But while tougher than humans, Space Marine biology still doesn't appreciate rapid injection of white hot metal at speeds faster than sound. The main problem is getting through the armor naturally, but that's less of a problem when so many astartes forego their helmets.

 Melissia wrote:
And let's face it, a Space Marine is tough to kill.

Where is the real Melissia?

Where have you taken her, you treacherous cretin?!

 oldzoggy wrote:
...Do you guys really have all those guns around your home ?...

We're odd out here in America, aren't we?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
...they don't have any new elements to work with...

Based on what? Their universe obviously doesn't operate on all the same physical laws ours does.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And let's face it, a Space Marine is tough to kill.

Where is the real Melissia?

Where have you taken her, you treacherous cretin?!

I know you're being sarcastic, but screw you, that is actually an obnoxious misrepresentation on my REPEATED explanations of my opinion on the lore.

I just remembered I have multiple Xenos factions in my 40k collection so Im dead over here on the Emerald Isle.
No, you cant have my stuff.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And let's face it, a Space Marine is tough to kill.

Where is the real Melissia?

Where have you taken her, you treacherous cretin?!

I know you're being sarcastic, but screw you, that is actually an obnoxious misrepresentation on my REPEATED explanations of my opinion on the lore.

I know, it's just a joke. Easy there.

That said, wow this thread is full of gung-ho.

This, cause I'm an undercover Vindicare Assassin baby! Right through the eye lens...

Laughs as the Space Marine either falls dead or immobile as the laws of physics and biology turns this into a non-threat, then buy lots of green spray paint and a bunch of drills bits, paint the SM in Dark Angel colors, drill a hole through the head, and then call my friend who likes the DA about how I bagged one in my appartement

Either having a poison weapon, or be lucky enough to have a low AP, Strength 6 weapon on hand. Plasma works nice if you are a gambler.

Not sure they currently exist on Earth.
Especially in standard households

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
...Do you guys really have all those guns around your home ?...

We're odd out here in America, aren't we?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
...they don't have any new elements to work with...

Based on what? Their universe obviously doesn't operate on all the same physical laws ours does.

Then it can't be compared.

With Dark Heresy being mentioned, my solution would be to try and kill the marine with falling damage. if I recall correctly the rules surrounding falling were frankly ridiculous (and it completely ignored armour).