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 Ratius wrote:
Corswain, Sigismund, Argel Tal in GV mode?
Who was the guy Talos used to square off against in the cage fights in the Soul Hunter series?

Xarl?

Yes might have been, been a while since I read those.
I'd also put money on a fully psyched eversor.

 TheLumberJack wrote:


His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is

9. I can only think of 3 models in the game with a higher initiative of 10, that's the Solitaire, the Avatar of Khaine (shame he never actually shows it in the fluff) and the Keeper of Secrets.

 Robin5t wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:


His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is

9. I can only think of 3 models in the game with a higher initiative of 10, that's the Solitaire, the Avatar of Khaine (shame he never actually shows it in the fluff) and the Keeper of Secrets.

Even with a higher initiative, her model couldn't do enough damage to Angron before he smashed her on the tabletop

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:


His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is

9. I can only think of 3 models in the game with a higher initiative of 10, that's the Solitaire, the Avatar of Khaine (shame he never actually shows it in the fluff) and the Keeper of Secrets.

Even with a higher initiative, her model couldn't do enough damage to Angron before he smashed her on the tabletop

Oh, no doubt about that, I'm just pointing out that in fluff terms that translates to being significantly faster, and speed is a hell of an advantage in a fight. (Again, only Solitaires ever seem to show it, though. Avatars and Keepers never seem to be uber-fast.)

Honestly, I wouldn't fancy Lelith against something like Angron in the fluff either.

Though on that note, if you want a Dark Eldar model that could take a primarch on the tabletop, Asdrubael Vect was a fair shout. He and his pimpmobile were absolutely crazy back when he had rules. I'd fancy him to do it in the fluff, too, if only because he wouldn't actually fight said Primarch in favour of dropping some kind of insane WMD on their face several years before the fight was even due to begin.

 Robin5t wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:


His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is

9. I can only think of 3 models in the game with a higher initiative of 10, that's the Solitaire, the Avatar of Khaine (shame he never actually shows it in the fluff) and the Keeper of Secrets.

Even with a higher initiative, her model couldn't do enough damage to Angron before he smashed her on the tabletop

Oh, no doubt about that, I'm just pointing out that in fluff terms that translates to being significantly faster, and speed is a hell of an advantage in a fight. (Again, only Solitaires ever seem to show it, though. Avatars and Keepers never seem to be uber-fast.)

Honestly, I wouldn't fancy Lelith against something like Angron in the fluff either.

Though on that note, if you want a Dark Eldar model that could take a primarch on the tabletop, Asdrubael Vect was a fair shout. He and his pimpmobile were absolutely crazy back when he had rules. I'd fancy him to do it in the fluff, too, if only because he wouldn't actually fight said Primarch in favour of dropping some kind of insane WMD on their face several years before the fight was even due to begin.

Initiative is not the only stat that depicts speed though, Attacks goes along with it. Think of wild west gunfights. Initiative would be how quickly you can draw and fire that first round, whereas Attacks would loosely depict how many rounds you can fire in a given timeframe.

I could be wrong, but I believe Angron has more Attacks than Lelith. So she may be quicker on the draw but it could be argued that he actually strikes faster than she does. Of course this is all while using TT as a basis for fluff, which just doesn't really work.

Yeah he has one more attack (unless she's outnumbered), but Lelith also has Fleet, and on top of that a special invulnerable save purely to signify how fast she is and how hard it is to hit her as a result (4+ against shooting and 3+ against melee). She's clearly intended to be faster.

I did not realize there was so much fan-ing out over Lelith.

 Robin5t wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.

I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?



But we do have stats for Angron

He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.

In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.

How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.

I think Angron's initiative is 7. But it is a non-issue.

Let's say she goes first. She gets 4 attacks, because she's not picking on losers. She hits with half of them (4+) and now needs a 6+ to wound. Let's say whe gets one, now he's only got around four more wounds.

Now he strikes back at her. Six attacks, hit on 4+, wound on 2+. If even one of those wounds gets through, she's dead. So it doesn't matter who got to go first, she doesn't stand a chance.



If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.

Movie Marines are Marines stats if they were the protagonist of an action movie, hence the movie part.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.

Funnily enough, in the clips from Dawn of War they were showing at the top to represent the movie the marines would be in, the space marines aren't actually too good. In the close combat, they pretty much lose a marine for every one or two orks killed, and even lose a Dreadnought despite the Orks having no armor support.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.

I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?



But we do have stats for Angron

He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.

In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.

How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.

I think Angron's initiative is 7. But it is a non-issue.

Let's say she goes first. She gets 4 attacks, because she's not picking on losers. She hits with half of them (4+) and now needs a 6+ to wound. Let's say whe gets one, now he's only got around four more wounds.

Now he strikes back at her. Six attacks, hit on 4+, wound on 2+. If even one of those wounds gets through, she's dead. So it doesn't matter who got to go first, she doesn't stand a chance.



If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.

To do that you'd need to make rules matching the fluff for Lelith as well.....

pm713 wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.

I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?



But we do have stats for Angron

He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.

In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.

How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.

I think Angron's initiative is 7. But it is a non-issue.

Let's say she goes first. She gets 4 attacks, because she's not picking on losers. She hits with half of them (4+) and now needs a 6+ to wound. Let's say whe gets one, now he's only got around four more wounds.

Now he strikes back at her. Six attacks, hit on 4+, wound on 2+. If even one of those wounds gets through, she's dead. So it doesn't matter who got to go first, she doesn't stand a chance.



If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.

To do that you'd need to make rules matching the fluff for Lelith as well.....

I mean then the same for Angron as well, the dude killed a bunch of Eldar when he was an infant and stopped a Titan from crushing him with his bare hands

It's fluff there is not a clear answer and it contradices itself.

According to fluff a Wraithlord Yes a *nimble* Wraithlord was able to slaughter all of Fullgrim Phoenix Guard and didn't killed him with a power fist to the chest because plot armor Daemonic weapon protection....

so now according to tabletop values a Wraithlord with WS4 I4 and A3 it's a deadly threat to primarch lvl fighters.... moronic isn't it?

Sarpedon, specifically, would break her mind and then tear her to ribbons.

Ghazzy. If we're going to judge by fluff alone, Lilith has no way of beating him as long as Gork or possible Mork have an interest in this greenskin - and they do. He can literally take a hail of bullets to the face and continue walking forward and kicking gitz around by this point.

Yeah this is the problem with debating fluff. Every faction will have a big hero type that's made out to seem completely unbeatable.

That's why I head back to the crunch to settle these things (although there are issues with understrength codices like Ork s, 'nids and DEldar).

There's an aspect of Newton's Flaming Laser Sword* to this.

*a philosophical razor, like Occam's Razor, that postulates: 'that which cannot be settled by experiment is not worth debating'

It's philosophy vs statistics

Although it does make me a little happy that a fan-made character (Chapter Master Smashf*cker) is statistically one of the most deadly close combat combatants in the entire galaxy

Castellan (Apparently his first name is Garran) Crowe would smash Lelith with or without use of his psychic powers. Insanely good dualist with even more over the top power in a challenge.

Entirely unrelated but for now on I'm going to imagine every time I have Crowe cast Cleansing Flame that he is in fact just shouting Demacia! and spinning to win.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah this is the problem with debating fluff. Every faction will have a big hero type that's made out to seem completely unbeatable.

That's why I head back to the crunch to settle these things (although there are issues with understrength codices like Ork s, 'nids and DEldar).

There's an aspect of Newton's Flaming Laser Sword* to this.

*a philosophical razor, like Occam's Razor, that postulates: 'that which cannot be settled by experiment is not worth debating'

It's philosophy vs statistics

Although it does make me a little happy that a fan-made character (Chapter Master Smashf*cker) is statistically one of the most deadly close combat combatants in the entire galaxy

Crunch-wise there are a LOT of things that beat Lilith.

It's a bit harder to calculate as she can dance around for some time trying to stack power from pain to gain bonuses - but at the same time, she can take some wounds from enemy shooting attacks. Basically any marine or even IG character has a nice chance of insta-killing her with a krak nade if they get within 8".

So, let's pick Lucius. He has a krak nade and a ~35% chance to insta-kill Lelith every time he throws it. Than when she charges (if she does manage to do it), he overwatches her with a doom siren for extra d3 s5 hits - that's 0.83 wounds. She throws a nade that most likely does nothing, charges, looses 1 wound to overwatch and than proceeds to make 5+1(2ccs)+1(charge)-1(lash) attacks deals a bit lower than 3 wounds in cc, 1 of which gets saved with 5++, she recieves 2 s4 ap2 hits from this wounds that results in 0.44 wounds and than - as she's WS10, Lucius strikes 11 times resulting in 1.63 wounds which ends up at around the same mutual damage. They're 1-1 wound. Next turn Lelith finishes Lucius off but his armor is around 50/50 to kill her in return.

But if Lucius manages to throw a nade, he has a chance of finishing it before it even starts, though, if Lelith stacks furuius charge and manages to avoid shooting, she wins.

As for Ghazzy, he pretty much murderises her as he's t5 4 wounds, s10 and has a turn of 2++. Even a fully buffed Lelith with furious charge and rage charging a non - 2++ Ghaz manages around 3 wounds - he has 4. Than he strikes back and has a 70% chance of insta-killing her. Than he turns on 2++ and lelith has around 20% chance to finish him off before he gets another 70% to klaw her to death.

Yeah see that's better evidence really

Did you factor in Lelith's 3++ she gets from being in a duel (4++ at all times normally), and the fact that she gains an attack for every point of WS she is higher than her opponent, meaning 8 attacks (9 on the charge) vs Lucius if she's warlord (bumps her up to WS10), -1 for the lash. Against Ghazzy that's 9 attacks.

She also re-rolls 1s both to hit and to wound, and counts-as AP2.

Might help her vs Lucius, but Ghazzy would likely still paste her.

You could argue that either the rules need to be updated to meet the fluff expectation for Lelith, or they're exactly as they were intended, but that's a different debate entirely.

Still, if we go by the rules she's good, but far from the best duelist...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah see that's better evidence really

Did you factor in Lelith's 3++ she gets from being in a duel (4++ at all times normally), and the fact that she gains an attack for every point of WS she is higher than her opponent, meaning 8 attacks (9 on the charge) vs Lucius if she's warlord (bumps her up to WS10), -1 for the lash. Against Ghazzy that's 9 attacks.

She also re-rolls 1s both to hit and to wound, and counts-as AP2.

Might help her vs Lucius, but Ghazzy would likely still paste her.

You could argue that either the rules need to be updated to meet the fluff expectation for Lelith, or they're exactly as they were intended, but that's a different debate entirely.

Still, if we go by the rules she's good, but far from the best duelist...

I counted her 3++ and that she re-rolls all to-hits and to-wounds and that she's ap2 ofc. And i forgot about extra attacks. That changes stuff. Ghaz still wins vs non-buffed Lelith but vs buffed Lilix he wins only if he charges or screams 2++ on her charge - note that he's almost as fast a charger on tabletop as Lelith as he can re-roll 1 dice for charge distance. And she'd better not hide for too long as he's got a bigshoota.

Lucius will gat splattered even vs non-buffed Lelix if he doesn't kill her with a krak grenade beforehand or if she'd be very unlucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, let me re-count Lelith vs Ghaz.

If Lelith charges w/o power from pain buffs, she pulls 2.5 wounds vs Ghaz w/o WAAAGH! - than there's a 70% chance that Ghaz splatters her with a klaw. But if he doesn't than there's a bit lower than 50% chance he'll fail ld and another 4/9 chance, so, around 22% that he'll get swept lol.

If buffed up Lelith charges Ghaz w/o WAAAGH! she will likely kill him before he strikes as she statistically deals a bit lower than 5 wounds. But if Ghaz manages to charge Lelith, it's back to ~2.3 wounds to Ghaz and now a 83% chance to insta-kill her.

Fluff-wise, don't these arena-rat dark elves get a power boost by 'feeding' off the crowd's energy?

If a Lelith fights in a wood and there is no body to cheer, does it make a round?

If you take a random Captain with a 3++ shield and fist, that's gona look like:

Foregoing a krak grenade's 35% chance to insta-kill Lelith + around 6% on overwatch.

Unbuffed Lelith charges and deals 1.8 wounds, than there are 0.42 id wounds from a powerfist captain.

If a captain doesn't have a s6+ weapon, he's most likely dead.

Buffed up Lelith would deal 2.67 wounds to a random captain - than the same 0.42 in return if he's lucky enough to live.

Chapter master is a whole different story. Let's assume he won't be able to...orbitally bombard a dark eldar arena. Same stuff with grenades. Lelith will be in a lot more trouble than vs captain as Chapter master has +1 wounds and attacks, so that's way less chance to kill him before he strikes and 0.55 ID wounds.

We don't count bikes cause who would allow a marine to get a bike to an arena, right?

All in all, i'd say that Lelith has a 50/50 chance against a regular pf+shield captain if she gets 1-st turn. Cause the longer she runs around, the more chances to die from a krak grenade she has. yep, she gets buffed up with power from pain, but than it's only good vs characters without krak grenades or stuff like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's take Abaddon just for fun.

Lelith can run around buffing up but she'd better not do it for too long as a combi-bolter deals around 0.32 wounds per shot minus stacking fnp. Anywayz, let's assume she's fully buffed up and charges Abaddon. She'd deal almost 3 wounds but than there are 0.97 wounds from a talon that's s8.

That's a pity that a regular space marine captain is able to go toe to toe with Lilith but she's naked after all. A naked captain or even Abaddon would be dead vs her. The fun thing is that naked Ghaz would have the exact same chance of killing Lelith as a megaarmored Ghaz with a power klaw if he manages to charge. Cybork body (6+ fnp) is built in and he has s5 base with furious charge, so will insta-kill Lelith with or without a klaw anywayz. But if he gets charged, he's screwed. Heck, a regular naked warboss would have chances vs Lelith if he pulls the charge off. She does deal 2.8 wounds but if he has cybork body, it's downgraded to 2.33 - which is allready a semi-decent chance to survive - and than there are 5 (6 if he still keeps his choppa and slugga) s6 attacks.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah see that's better evidence really

Did you factor in Lelith's 3++ she gets from being in a duel (4++ at all times normally), and the fact that she gains an attack for every point of WS she is higher than her opponent, meaning 8 attacks (9 on the charge) vs Lucius if she's warlord (bumps her up to WS10), -1 for the lash. Against Ghazzy that's 9 attacks.

She also re-rolls 1s both to hit and to wound, and counts-as AP2.

Might help her vs Lucius, but Ghazzy would likely still paste her.

You could argue that either the rules need to be updated to meet the fluff expectation for Lelith, or they're exactly as they were intended, but that's a different debate entirely.

Still, if we go by the rules she's good, but far from the best duelist...

Unless my Codex it's wrong or outdated i tought Lelith special rules are she Rerolls to hit and to wound on challenges , and Armour saves cannot be taken against wound s inflicted by her.

that +1 A thing it's only an Exarch Striking Scorpion rule as far i know.

So, all the calculations were wrong and a random captain with a fist or a butt naked warboss on the charge indeed trump her. That'd be a hilarious fight vs just a massive naked ork.

Either dark eldar are overrating her badly or she does use some magic coke.

So you're right. They changed 'A League Apart' to re-rolling all hits and wounds in a challenge.

God damnit I wish they would stop crapping all over Dark Eldar. Their dex wasn't even near the strongest last time and they got nerfs across the board.

Ah well :S

Hmmm, how's this for an interesting topic, that just so happens to benefit Lelith ...

Take two characters, strip them of all their wargear, give them each a knife and place them in an arena surrounding a null rod.

Who comes out on top?

Perhaps that's what the DEldar do...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Take two characters, strip them of all their wargear, give them each a knife and place them in an arena surrounding a null rod.

Who comes out on top?

Perhaps that's what the DEldar do...

As i said above, a butt naked random ork Warboss has >50% to kill Lelith if he pulls a charge. And almost no chances if he gets charged

Basically, most s6 things would kill her dead. Big Tyranid bugs, DP, greater daemons, an ork warboss on the charge.

By Fluff?
Sevrin Loth would just cause her to have Mega Osteoporosis x10000 via Psychic Might

By Crunch?
Sevrin Loth picking Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Endurance would ruin her day (plus his built in 2++ invun ability)

 JamesY wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Corswain, Sigismund, Argel Tal in GV mode?
Who was the guy Talos used to square off against in the cage fights in the Soul Hunter series?

Xarl?

I thought he didn't like sparring with Xarl because he's devoted to Khorne? Or maybe that's just my gakky memory.

After reading through this thread I have some idea of the problems with it. Hence I'll make some rules for the fight. This is all lore based. Both combatants are armed with chosen wargear. No psykers or blanks allowed. No gods. No deamons. Only presently (40k) alive character. I'll divide this into factions.
Note: This list is not people who *would* win but rather the ones who standd a chance at wounding her. That's how OP she is in the fluff.

Reasoning: We know lelith has been around for thousands of years fighting nonstop. We know she beat the unnamed no.1 Space marine duelist. All names on this list must thus be superior to the best astartes in the galaxy at any given time. Currently I'd say the greatest astartes fighter is Dante, currently the oldest Space marine at 2000years. Those that surpass him are the ones with 10k+ years of war experience. So that shuts out anyone that wasn't around pre heresy.

Weapons: originally I went with "naked with a knife" approach but realised that only changed two things. Abaddon and the phoenix lords. Hence I changed the wargear to anything goes.

Chaos: Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon.
Lucius was the best duelist of his time. All three above has survived as leaders in the warp, most likely fighting deamons nonstop. They are litteraly unnatural in str, speed, skill and exp. I'd say Lucius has the best chance but Kharn probably has the individually highest kill-count in the universe.

Marines: none
No one without psychic powers. They'd have to surpass Dante to make this list.

Imperium as a whole: Custodes Captain
The only guy I can think of. We don't know how strong the Custodes are currently but we know they've been fighting deamons on terra for 10k+years. The Captain is confirmed to have duelled and beaten primarchs (if he's still alive). Probably the best fighter in the Imperium.

Eldar: Harlequin King, Solitaire, All of the phoenix lords.
All of theese have very difficult power levels to decide. Maugan Ra is said to have single handedly beaten a Tyranid hive fleet. Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days. What we do know is that they all have combat experience since before the fall of the Eldar and are probably the most skilled 1v1 fighters in the galaxy. Oh and the Solitaire should be able to match Leliths speed.

Dark Eldar: Vect
Not sure. Could he beat her through some sneaky means?

Necrons: none

Tyranids: none

Orks: Ghazkuul
Special case. He should have died several times by now and is probably the single toughest being in the galaxy. I'd say he's the weakest of the above mentioned though, but I suppose Gork (or possibly Mork) would give him an unforseen edge. Could he beat Dante 1v1? Probably. Could he beat Lelith? Possibly.

EDIT: i forgot the Tau