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 Bull0 wrote:
Yeah, that's going to cause its' own problems, surely. Like, if jump pack man is not the closest model, and the closest model's roll is too low to make it, but jump pack man's roll is high enough, do you still charge even though the closest model can't engage? :/

No. If the initial model can't make contact, the charge fails. How much range other models in the unit have never comes into consideration in that scenario.

 insaniak wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
Yeah, that's going to cause its' own problems, surely. Like, if jump pack man is not the closest model, and the closest model's roll is too low to make it, but jump pack man's roll is high enough, do you still charge even though the closest model can't engage? :/

No. If the initial model can't make contact, the charge fails. How much range other models in the unit have never comes into consideration in that scenario.

I think the issue is the jump pack gets to reroll it's charge, so probably going to be a lot of interpretations about how that works with making it into combat I guess.

Looks like YMDC got an early christmas present from GW.

 n0t_u wrote:

I think the issue is the jump pack gets to reroll it's charge, so probably going to be a lot of interpretations about how that works with making it into combat I guess.

Unless the jump pack model is the first charger, it doesn't matter.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
It doesn't remove the Monstrous Creature type. So for the purposes of Shield wall it has both, which is where the FAQ kicks in. To further Kick Tyranids in the face, sadly.

Wording is as, " may join a unit of Tyrant Guard as if it were an Independent Character."

This plainly means to treat it as an IC when joining the unit, allowing the Tyrant to join the Guard as intended. It's very simple. I don't see why the issue is an issue even considering the FAQ.

I'm going with this. Any Tyranid players that play against me are free to join Tyrant Guard with their Tyrant.

Im with you on this one! Seriously, someone not allowing a Nid player to still do it is an absolute turkey and I probably would never have an enjoyable time playing them.

stonehorse wrote:Yes treat it as an IC, and it follows all the rules. Sure. Nowhere in shield wall does it remove or replace the MC of the Tyrant. So it has both, following the rules for this the FAQ quite clearly says it can't join.

It will no doubt be a massive oversight on GW's behalf. One that they will eventually correct. Until then this will be brought up in games where Tyrant Guard are used.

This is going to be like the whole debacle of the can Carnifexs shoot booth of their weapons when shooting on overwatch. Until the FAQ RAW said no, RAI said yes,

Fun times!

Wow, your player base or friends are real douches. This is the second forum now I see you freaking this over now. On The Tyranid Hive you said your friends or people you play with will go strictly by RAW. Wow you didn't play like this last week or yesterday but now you and they will know? Talk about needing to win with plastic toy soldiers and not having fun.

Maybe Mr Kirby was correct all along in laughing and mocking us as players when people behave like this. I feel bad about you. Why play with people who act like this then? Also why not wait for the Nid FAQ before freaking out?

Davor wrote:
Wow, your player base or friends are real douches. This is the second forum now I see you freaking this over now. On The Tyranid Hive you said your friends or people you play with will go strictly by RAW. Wow you didn't play like this last week or yesterday but now you and they will know? Talk about needing to win with plastic toy soldiers and not having fun.

Maybe Mr Kirby was correct all along in laughing and mocking us as players when people behave like this. I feel bad about you. Why play with people who act like this then? Also why not wait for the Nid FAQ before freaking out?

That's a little uncalled for. Regardless of reaction, it's better to address the issue than to go on like you just did.

I'm really not a fan of the grenade thing. It's like a whole squad of guys surround a battlewagon that stayed still last turn, then they're like "Jenkins, stick on a grenade." Jenkins rolls a 1 and misses. "Alright boys, stand around the wagon and chill!"

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm really not a fan of the grenade thing. It's like a whole squad of guys surround a battlewagon that stayed still last turn, then they're like "Jenkins, stick on a grenade." Jenkins rolls a 1 and misses. "Alright boys, stand around the wagon and chill!"

I don't like it purely from a HH perspective....why would I ever pay for an entire unit of Meltabombs now

 stonehorse wrote:
With the changes to cover saves for Monstrous Creatures and this change. I think Tyranids have been kicked in the face again.

RIP Tyrant Guard.

Q: If a Monstrous Creature is also an Independent Character, can it join other units? Can other Independent Characters then join the unit that the Monstrous Creature is now a part of?
A: No, to both question.

Codex Tyranids Page 47. Shieldwall. A Single Hive Tyrant (or the Swarmlord) may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an Independent Character.

All Shieldwall grants is permission to join like an Independent Character, which again the Hive Tyrant can't now due to the FAQ.

I think it is one that they didn't encounter when writing the FAQ, and will hopefully be addressed in a Tyranid FAQ. I wish it wan't so, I really do. I imagine that this is one that is going to be brought up by players who adhere to RAW.

Thanks GW, thanks!

Just wanna chime in to point out that it says "as if it's an IC", not "As if it's an MC IC". Nor does it says "The Hive Tyrant gains the IC Rule". Hence, raw it still stands. For the brief moment that the Tyrant is attempting to join the unit, it becomes just an Independent Character (nothing more, nothing less. Which means that, yes, he's not Infantry (Character) or something else of that sort either) until it finishes "joining".

I know most people generally won't read it that literally, but given the tunnel-vision like reading some people can get on here just to not admit they misread something, that's how I see it if you go strictly by RAW.

Also I'm glad they difinitively set that you just can't join a unit that is in a formation where their arrival time from reserves is altered.

Still not sure about the combination of altered reserve time unit riding in an empty transport (same army different detachment) that is in reserve. A flyer for example.

no ones pointed this out yet:

Page 167 – Infiltrate Replace the first paragraph of rules text with the following: ‘You may choose to deploy units that contain at least one model with this special rule last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both players have such units and choose to do so, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these units.’

So now you can choose to deploy Infiltrate units normally

Replace the first sentence of the second paragraph of rules text with the following: ‘Units that Infiltrate in this way can be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw line of sight to them.’

So no more 12" or 18" but you literally cannot deploy in any kind of field of view of an enemy unit. Sucks for assassins.

Replace the third paragraph of rules text with the following: ‘If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, the same rules apply when setting up their Transport.’

Woohoo Infiltrating Rhinos for my Thousand Sons! Assuming I can hide something that big

Paintalist wrote:WOWOWOWOWOWWWOWW WAIT!

Q: If you fire an Ordnance weapon from a Stationary vehicle,
are all other shots Snap Shots? What about when moving? How
is this altered if the vehicle is a Heavy Tank (e.g. a Leman Russ
Demolisher with plasma cannon sponsons), or Fast, or a Flyer
(e.g. when firing hellstrike missiles, does firing the first missile
mean that the second is fired as a Snap Shot)?

A: A vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only
make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn
(whether Stationary or moving). A vehicle being Heavy
has no effect on firing Ordnance weapons. A Fast vehicle
that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap
Shots with its other weapons that turn, but can fire a
single Ordnance weapon at its full Ballistic Skill even
at Cruising Speed. A Flyer firing two hellstrike missiles
in a turn fires both at the same time, as described in
the ‘Select a Weapon’ step of the Shooting phase. Both
missiles would be fired at the Flyer’s full Ballistic Skill –
all other weapons could only make Snap Shots that turn.

*sponsons still useless on BT and Demolisher'

pretre wrote:No, it says the opposite.

I'm ashamed to say that I don't understand what's being said here. Could someone clarify?

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Replace the first sentence of the second paragraph of rules text with the following: ‘Units that Infiltrate in this way can be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw line of sight to them.’

So no more 12" or 18" but you literally cannot deploy in any kind of field of view of an enemy unit. Sucks for assassins.

You can still use the 18" and in line of sight method as that is detailed in the second sentence of paragraph 2, not the first. Therefore it isn't replaced.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
no ones pointed this out yet:

Page 167 – Infiltrate Replace the first paragraph of rules text with the following: ‘You may choose to deploy units that contain at least one model with this special rule last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both players have such units and choose to do so, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these units.’

So now you can choose to deploy Infiltrate units normally

Replace the first sentence of the second paragraph of rules text with the following: ‘Units that Infiltrate in this way can be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw line of sight to them.’

So no more 12" or 18" but you literally cannot deploy in any kind of field of view of an enemy unit. Sucks for assassins.

Replace the third paragraph of rules text with the following: ‘If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, the same rules apply when setting up their Transport.’

Woohoo Infiltrating Rhinos for my Thousand Sons! Assuming I can hide something that big

"So no more 12" or 18" but you literally cannot deploy in any kind of field of view of an enemy unit. Sucks for assassins."
WRONG
I originally thought this, but as mate pointed out you are replacing only the first sentence of the second paragraph, so you are replacing:

Infiltrators can be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy
unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw line of sight to them.

with

‘Units that Infiltrate in this way can be set up anywhere
on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy unit,
as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw line of sight
to them.’

So the rest of that paragraph is still as written in the BRB:

This includes in a building, as long as the building is more than 12" from any enemy unit. Alternatively, they
can be set up anywhere on the table more than 18" from any enemy unit, even in plain
sight.

These nerfs to MCs are brutal. No cover from interveneing models or area terrain. Here's hoping that 8th solves the problem.

Matt.Kingsley & sm3g thank you I stand corrected.

As for the MC cover from units, didn't there used to be a rule "Above all Others" or some such thing that MCs had that specifically said they could not get a cover save from other units? Like back in 4th or 5th? Feels like they are trying to go back to that line of thinking

So put Warriors in front of your Carnifexes?

 rollawaythestone wrote:
These nerfs to MCs are brutal. No cover from interveneing models or area terrain. Here's hoping that 8th solves the problem.

Tiny people giving a giant monster a 5+ cover save was just stupid IMO.
Yes, Tyranids are pretty much useless now until they get an update, but an MC getting a cover save where a dreadnought didn't never ever made sense to me....

It shouldn't get a cover save because it as a toe and its ankle behind something...

Thats actually one of the very few things that makes sense in this game.

If you shoot at me with a PB gun and only my foot is behind some obstacle, are you gonna aim at my foot who's obscured?, or at the rest of my body who isn't obscured?...

Now this doesn't prevent a MC to get cover if its obscured like 50% or something.

 Frankenberry wrote:

Paintalist wrote:WOWOWOWOWOWWWOWW WAIT!

Q: If you fire an Ordnance weapon from a Stationary vehicle,
are all other shots Snap Shots? What about when moving? How
is this altered if the vehicle is a Heavy Tank (e.g. a Leman Russ
Demolisher with plasma cannon sponsons), or Fast, or a Flyer
(e.g. when firing hellstrike missiles, does firing the first missile
mean that the second is fired as a Snap Shot)?

A: A vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only
make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn
(whether Stationary or moving). A vehicle being Heavy
has no effect on firing Ordnance weapons. A Fast vehicle
that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap
Shots with its other weapons that turn, but can fire a
single Ordnance weapon at its full Ballistic Skill even
at Cruising Speed. A Flyer firing two hellstrike missiles
in a turn fires both at the same time, as described in
the ‘Select a Weapon’ step of the Shooting phase. Both
missiles would be fired at the Flyer’s full Ballistic Skill –
all other weapons could only make Snap Shots that turn.

*sponsons still useless on BT and Demolisher'

pretre wrote:No, it says the opposite.

I'm ashamed to say that I don't understand what's being said here. Could someone clarify?

He edited after I posted.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
These nerfs to MCs are brutal. No cover from interveneing models or area terrain. Here's hoping that 8th solves the problem.

Oh no my riptide/hive tyrant/dreadknight/bloodthirster don't get cover saves outside of jink any more. Whatever will we do.

I understand that for the tyranid player that wants to play his monstrous creatures it really sucks but...outside of a spawning tervigon, or a shooty canifex/tyrannofex, all of which are usually pretty easy to obscure, no one plays tyranid MCs. Yes, it sucks that this is another boot to the neck but it's essentially dropping 0% down to also 0%.

Requizen wrote:
Literally nobody is going to interpret it that way.

You were literally proved wrong by the other guy posting.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
It shouldn't get a cover save because it as a toe and its ankle behind something...

Thats actually one of the very few things that makes sense in this game.

If you shoot at me with a PB gun and only my foot is behind some obstacle, are you gonna aim at my foot who's obscured?, or at the rest of my body who isn't obscured?...

Which would be fine, if it wasn't how cover works for other models... Having one system for some models and another system for others makes less sense that both of them using the same abstracted system.

Your static model with the edge of his base sitting on the terrain isn't supposed to represent the warrior actually standing there in a heroic pose with his feet glued to a giant plastic circle. It's an abstraction.

 pretre wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Literally nobody is going to interpret it that way.

You were literally proved wrong by the other guy posting.

People slinging their interpretations of text back and forth is not literally proving anything.....

You go be TFG and not let Hive Tyrants join Tyranid Guard and enjoy people not wanting to play you very quickly.

sm3g wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Literally nobody is going to interpret it that way.

You were literally proved wrong by the other guy posting.

People slinging their interpretations of text back and forth is not literally proving anything......

That wasn't what he was saying. He was pointing out the absurdity of telling somebody who was interpreting something a given way that nobody would interpret it that way... since it is quite self-evidently untrue.

 insaniak wrote:

sm3g wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Literally nobody is going to interpret it that way.

You were literally proved wrong by the other guy posting.

People slinging their interpretations of text back and forth is not literally proving anything......

That wasn't what he was saying. He was pointing out the absurdity of telling somebody who was interpreting something a given way that nobody would interpret it that way... since it is quite self-evidently untrue.

My Mistake - I misinterpreted what was being proven wrong in this instance then. I still stand by my second point however.

Let's be real, if someone legitimately tells a Tyranid player that their Hive Tyrant is unable to join a unit of Tyrant Guard - you know, the creatures SPECFICALLY DESIGNED TO PROTECT HIVE TYRANTS - they deserve to be punched in the throat. If someone actually pushes that on you, they're not worth playing with. End of story.

Especially when the rule states "MAY join a unit of tyrant guard..."

So, the rule gives you permission. Period. Anything after that is simply showing the specifics of how to go about it. Otherwise nobody would know when it could be done, whether or not you need to be in coherency for example.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Especially when the rule states "MAY join a unit of tyrant guard..."

So, the rule gives you permission. Period. Anything after that is simply showing the specifics of how to go about it. Otherwise nobody would know when it could be done, whether or not you need to be in coherency for example.

Be sure to finish quoting that rule. Yes, it says they "can" join. They can join "Exactly like an Independent Character" would be able to. If you're joining exactly like an Independent Character would be able to, then following the restrictions laid out in the Independent Character rules, the Shieldwall special rule gives the Tyrant the ability to join a unit of Tyrant Guard so long as they are not:
- Locked in combat
- Further than 2" from the Hive Tyrant
- In Reserves
- Falling Back
- Vehicles
- Monstrous Creatures
- A Unit

Additionally, saying someone "Can" do something doesn't allow them to do it while ignoring all restrictions. Eldar Windrider Jetbikes are a good comparison here. They "Can" Run and Shoot in the same turn thanks to the Battle Focus special rule, but they are prevented from being able to do so since Jetbikes cannot Run. They have a special rule clearly intended to let them Move and Shoot in the Shooting Phase that they are unable to use.

I agree that it would be ridiculous to deny someone the ability to join when that is the clear purpose and intent for that unit, especially since it worked just fine right up until now, but RAW I do believe they just broke this particular scenario unintentionally.

Caederes wrote:
Let's be real, if someone legitimately tells a Tyranid player that their Hive Tyrant is unable to join a unit of Tyrant Guard - you know, the creatures SPECFICALLY DESIGNED TO PROTECT HIVE TYRANTS - they deserve to be punched in the throat. If someone actually pushes that on you, they're not worth playing with. End of story.

Threatening physical violence over a game of toy soldiers is possibly not the high road you envisage...

I completely agree that enforcing the RAW on this would be a little absurd, but there's no need to get silly about it, whichever side of the debate you find yourself on.

I'm pleased that the FAQs seem to have been positively received on the whole, however this discussion around Hive Tyrants not being able to join tyrant guard is a classic example of why we, as players, need to take some responsibility for the enjoyment of the game. GW must read discussions like this and hold their heads in their hands whilst repeatedly saying 'do we REALLY have to spell that out explicitly in the rules?!'. The bottom line is, in a game as complicated as Warhammer 40,000 it is simply not possible for rules writers to address every single possible specific interaction. A degree of common sense is ALWAYS going to be required and suggesting that Hive Tyrants can now no longer join a unit that in both the fluff and in the rules (the shieldwall rule specifically says 'A hive Tyrant CAN JOIN A UNIT OF TYRANT GUARD...') is simply not using common sense regardless of how you want to read the rules.

That said, I am very much in the camp that the new FAQ does not prevent a Hive Tyrant from joining the Tyrant Guard for two reasons. The strongest argument is that the rule says that he joins the unit 'as if it were an independent character (IC)' it does not say 'as if it were a monstrous creature independent character (MCIC)', In my view it effectively treats it (for the purposes of joining the unit only) as being an IC, pure and simple and removes the fact that it is a MC from the equation. In fact that approach is taking an absolutely strict, to the letter RAW approach so anyone who plays strictly rules as written cannot complain about it. If they do complain and say 'but removing its MC unit type completely doesn't make sense?' you can then follow this up by saying that the way they are interpreting the rule it basically reads as follows (paraphrasing because i can't remember the exact wording of the rules):

'A hive tyrant may join a unit of tyrant guard exactly as if it were a type of unit that cannot join or be joined by other units'

Now, that doesn't make much sense either. So, how do you resolve a situation where there are conflicting, contradictory rules? Well, core rulebook FAQ says the player whose turn it is decides and since the Hive Tyrant will always be joining units on your turn i guess that means he can join units. Alternatively, you can go through the fluff and read the Tyrant Guard unit entries. etc and see that clearly Hive Tyrants are meant to be able to join Tyrant Guard units. The common sense approach. Or, if your play group are an absolute stickler for RAW, then you use the method in option 1 and say right ok, well rules as written he is an IC not an MCIC therefore he can do it.