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Noise Marines used to be 20 points base, and their Sonic Blasters were another 5 points, and they didn't ignore cover...

I don't see much point to trying to max them out, but the minimum 3 are at least conceivably usable. Really, my only issue with them is that the Champion can't also take a Sonic Blaster too.

On a sillier note, the fact the Lord has Splitfire could also have its own uses, and the Slaaneshi OblitStar sounds potentially hilarious too. It doesn't get Overwatch like the Tzeentch one, or T5 FNP base like the Nurgle one, but it has Splitfire, and fishing for Endurance can give it Eternal Warrior, and potentially FNP 4+ with a good roll. Depending on your drug roll, you either have BS 5, S 5 (so S10), T5, extra attacks...really, only the WS one and the I ones would be meh, though I 6 Oblits would at least be able to be somewhat resilient versus Warp Spiders...

Would I run it? No way! Still, it does give food for thought.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/traitor-AL-det.jpg

The rule is not redundant with the lost and the damned, it stacks. It is a completely different rule. One is a command bonus, the other is a core detatchment rule. One gets outflank, the other doesn't. Read them carefully, and apply RAW logic.

Add typhus to a cad and you have multiplying zombies if you roll well.

Hmm, yea I would have to agree. Seriously doubt that RAI but so is the rule doing nothing so *shrug*.

Except RAW this doesn't even come close to working. Alpha Legion specifically states no marked units, no unique marked units meaning Typhus would need to be in a separate CAD. Typhus only unlocks Zombies from HIS detachment and only units of cultists from Alpha Legion get to recycle meaning they can't stack since they are not even related to begin with. That isn't even touching on the hurdle that RAW zombies are not cultists meaning if you somehow cheated your way past the initial hurdles you still can only recycle cultists and not zombies.

Unless GW has faqed or changed Typhus' rule from the CSM codex, you are way off. His rule states "any chaos cultists in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as plague zombies". If you have any special insight to a rule where that stipulates his rule applies only to his detatchment, I would love to see it. An army made out of an AL detatchment and CSM Cad are all one army. Typhus would be in the CAD. Hell, he could even be in a DG detatchment and it would still work. Reread the rules and let me know if they changed Typhus's since the codex.

Is there any way other than magic to make noize marines relentless?

 koooaei wrote:
Is there any way other than magic to make noize marines relentless?

We don't have SaP characters anywhere do we, not even in FW?

 koooaei wrote:
Is there any way other than magic to make noize marines relentless?

Options appear to be limited to Endurance under Biomancy.

The alternative I have been thinking about is marching them up the board behind a wall of cultists. Eventually, you get to stop marching, and Sonic weapons do ignore cover.

I think shred and split fire alone make noise marines so much more flexible. Shred especially, which makes the sonic blasters a more serious threat to t4 and t5 models. The additional strength is icing on the cake, but that moment you outflank noise marines on the flank and start obliterating stuff with sonic weaponry :p I am going to run a kakophoni alongside a CAD since I am not seeing the decurion benifits as worth sacrificing all the tactical flexibility of my army. I still want t5 fnp 4+ bikes, some scoring, decent, marines (probably with close combat weapons and maybe a flamer or melta gun) and a heldrake. Maybe a kakophoni and heldrake terror pack for blast master pinning shenanigans and vector strike evilness

How do we stand on taking on a knight now?
I'm thinking about any new ways we might have gotten to take on a wraith knight.

Seer's bane could be a good way if you can get the knight down to leadership 8. But that's not the easiest/cheapest to achieve.
You'd need some combination of characters, the heldrake formation and/or CS formations.

A more viable way I think, could be to use a BL prince of ... anything really. Using the blind axe or black mace.
With a re-roll on hit, a good roll on daemon weapon might be enough to kill a knight.
With a khorne prince you would need to fish for curse of leper on some other psyker, but he becomes pretty scary.

He'd be S10 on the charge and T6, making it much harder to instagib him. It's not quite enough to kill a knight though.
Should you also get blades of putrefaction however, he becomes massively brutal, re-rolling to wound as well as to to hit.
He stands a decent chance at killing a wraith knight on the charge, and unlike other daemons he can take on imperial knights as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

but you have chosen/havocs that are relentless, T5, FNP.

They arent troops, but still

You could technically get the target to -5 toughness. Almost unreachable in regular games but -2 is quite realistic and -3 is reachable. -4 is rare but can be achieved.

Curse of the Lepper: -1str, T
Gift of contagion: 1/3 chance for -1str, T
Biomancy: -1str, T
Plague colony: -1str, possibly -1T
Tallyband: -1T.

If you get to -3T you insta kill guardsmen, sob, cultists, renegades, warp spiders, scarabs, solitaires, troupes etc.
If you get to -3str you insta kill ork boyz and all of the above.
-4T kills a whole lot of other things like scatbikes, wuffen, cron warriors, immortals, marines, most special characters.
-4Str kills all of the above short of wuffen but adds up most bikes.
And -5T kills literally anything else short of monsters and nurgle spawns/bikers.

It seems like Alpha Legion can do a decent MSU army now. A warband and cutists formation can be a lot of cheap infiltrating and/or outflanking units, with the cultists constantly recycling and coming in with outflank

The chosen and 2+ CSM units in the warband can infiltrate to get closer with special weapons. The fast attack slot can be bikes which will have shrouded on T1 for 2+ jink saves (possibly a good place to put a mindveil IC). The final tax in the formation would either be havocs or a helbrute, neither of which need to be expensive. Take at least one big unit of cultists with the apostle (and optional other IC's) to outflank with.

Add sorcerers to summon pink horrors and you have a list with cultists constantly respawning and summoned horrors which generate units as they die. IC's can be attached to cultist blobs for killing power

I just realised that alpha legion only has warband as a core - and not cultists, so to get double returning cultists, you still need a warband. Not that infiltrating marines with shrowded 1-st turn are bad or something but i was allready planning to add a cultist factory to supplement the world eater's 1-st turn charge.

 koooaei wrote:
You could technically get the target to -5 toughness. Almost unreachable in regular games but -2 is quite realistic and -3 is reachable. -4 is rare but can be achieved.

Curse of the Lepper: -1str, T
Gift of contagion: 1/3 chance for -1str, T
Biomancy: -1str, T
Plague colony: -1str, possibly -1T
Tallyband: -1T.

If you get to -3T you insta kill guardsmen, sob, cultists, renegades, warp spiders, scarabs, solitaires, troupes etc.
If you get to -3str you insta kill ork boyz and all of the above.
-4T kills a whole lot of other things like scatbikes, wuffen, cron warriors, immortals, marines, most special characters.
-4Str kills all of the above short of wuffen but adds up most bikes.
And -5T kills literally anything else short of monsters and nurgle spawns/bikers.

also you're forgetting Grotti the Nurgling, the Daemons Relic with his -1 T aura.

Is it possible to make a 'Zerkerstar now?

I am thinking 20 Zerkers with Kharn with 1 Chaos lord with the Gorefarther and Talisman. Ally in 1ksons Cyclopia Cabal and give each sorcerer a power fist and fish for invis and 1 of them the Astral Grimoire.

This should all be possible in just 2 sources right? 1x WE warband or CAD and 1x 1kSons Cabal.

I know its not fluffy, but if this is a legal list I can see this being the new big tournament invis deathstar and it might make CSM very tournament competitive again

I don't know about you guys, but I'm gonna spam IW daemonic possessed vindicators. Re-roll on ordinance counteracts the BS 3 and makes them the most likely to actually shoot and hit vindicators in the game. Even the smiths get some new artefact goodies right?

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Is it possible to make a 'Zerkerstar now?

I am thinking 20 Zerkers with Kharn with 1 Chaos lord with the Gorefarther and Talisman. Ally in 1ksons Cyclopia Cabal and give each sorcerer a power fist and fish for invis and 1 of them the Astral Grimoire.

This should all be possible in just 2 sources right? 1x WE warband or CAD and 1x 1kSons Cabal.

I know its not fluffy, but if this is a legal list I can see this being the new big tournament invis deathstar and it might make CSM very tournament competitive again

Kind of. You can't mix marks, so the sorcerors would have to stand next to the khorne blob. (And the cylopea cabal is Black legion only, the sons cabal is harder to build) I've been playing with bezerker star and it's hard to achieve without a lot of tax.

Unmarked sorcerors are better for invis rolling (alphas with mindviel are great or iron warriors with easy troop choice.)

Getting the TS character: doesn't have to be a sorceror. There are some good formations with warpsmiths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(And only 1 relic per character, so its a talisman OR a relic weapon)

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Is it possible to make a 'Zerkerstar now?

I am thinking 20 Zerkers with Kharn with 1 Chaos lord with the Gorefarther and Talisman. Ally in 1ksons Cyclopia Cabal and give each sorcerer a power fist and fish for invis and 1 of them the Astral Grimoire.

This should all be possible in just 2 sources right? 1x WE warband or CAD and 1x 1kSons Cabal.

I know its not fluffy, but if this is a legal list I can see this being the new big tournament invis deathstar and it might make CSM very tournament competitive again

Kind of. You can't mix marks, so the sorcerors would have to stand next to the khorne blob. (And the cylopea cabal is Black legion only, the sons cabal is harder to build) I've been playing with bezerker star and it's hard to achieve without a lot of tax.

Unmarked sorcerors are better for invis rolling (alphas with mindviel are great or iron warriors with easy troop choice.)

Getting the TS character: doesn't have to be a sorceror. There are some good formations with warpsmiths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(And only 1 relic per character, so its a talisman OR a relic weapon)

Thanks, I think I understand. So I cant have independent characters from from 1kSons formation join a WE detachment? What about unmarked Independent Character like the Cyclopia Cabal?

You could still join Marked characters to Gorepack Flesh Hounds...

 MagicJuggler wrote:
You could still join Marked characters to Gorepack Flesh Hounds...

I think I know what the confusion is. You cant mix marks WITHIN the detachment. E.g. you cant take a WE warband and give one of the squads Mark of Nurgle.

but you can attach characters from a different formations OUTSIDE of the detachment. E.g. Take a WE warband and add a Nurgle Sorcerer from an allied detachment to one of the Warband squads.

Therefore, you should be able to take a WE detachment and a separate 1kSons detachment and attach the independent character how you want. E.g. World Eater Warband AND a Thousand Sons War Coven, taken as an independent formation.

So with that cleared up I am trying to keep the 'Zerkerstar to 2 sources as that is what most of the tournaments are round my way. I think the best way to run it at 2 sources would be:
1) World Eater detachment with 2 Chaos Lords (One with Talisman and 1 with Gorefather in the Command Section and a Maelstrom of Gore consisting of Kharn unit of 20 Zerkers and 3 min squads as the Core. The Auxiliary can just be a Spawn to keep cost down on tax.
2) Thousand Sons War Coven with 4 sorcerers, 1 with the Astral Grimoire and all with Powerfist, Spell Familiar and the chosen discipline as Telepathy (for casting invis on 3+)

Is this legal?

Mixing marks has nothign to do with detachments at all.
You can't mix marks in a unit because an indep character cannot join a unit with a different mark. That's a rule for marks.
What you're thinking of is are the requirements to dedicate a detachment to a legion. In that case you can't have models in that detachment with marks they aren't allowed to have. But that happens at the army building stage. It only affects their upgrade options. On the table top they are free to join as they wish, provided they don't join a unit with a different mark.

As such you can't have a tzeentch marked character join a unit of berzerkers or anything else with a mark of khorne, but that doesn't stop the grimoire from affecting them. They're still a friendly unit.

 Roknar wrote:
Mixing marks has nothign to do with detachments at all.
You can't mix marks in a unit because an indep character cannot join a unit with a different mark. That's a rule for marks.
What you're thinking of is are the requirements to dedicate a detachment to a legion. In that case you can't have models in that detachment with marks they aren't allowed to have. But that happens at the army building stage. It only affects their upgrade options. On the table top they are free to join as they wish, provided they don't join a unit with a different mark.

As such you can't have a tzeentch marked character join a unit of berzerkers or anything else with a mark of khorne, but that doesn't stop the grimoire from affecting them. They're still a friendly unit.

OK understood, thanks for your help.

So maybe take the Spawn in the Auxillary choice as a max unit but with no marks and then attach the War Coven for it so the Sorcerers have lots of extra wounds.

any unit that can have a mark has to have it, so spawn in a WE detachment have to be MoK

Well, technically you can still join indeps with different marks to an unmarked unit - like khornedogs.

Latro_ wrote:any unit that can have a mark has to have it, so spawn in a WE detachment have to be MoK

koooaei wrote:Well, technically you can still join indeps with different marks to an unmarked unit - like khornedogs.

Ah understood. So the only way to provide protection would be to take a WE detachment and 1kSons detachment.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, technically you can still join indeps with different marks to an unmarked unit - like khornedogs.

No.

The rules summary for marks bans this.
As as example, suppose all the dogs get shot out, you are left with an illegal unit.

Right so after some thought I have come up with my 'Zerkerstar in 2 sources is list.

+++ World Eaters Detachment +++

Command:
Chaos Lord with Gorefather.
Chaos Lord with Talisman.

Core:
Maelstrom of Gore:
Kharn the Betrayer
20x Bezerkers
5x Bezerkers
5x Bezerkers
5x Bezerkers

Auxiliary;
Chaos Spawn

+++ Thousand Sons Detachment +++

Core
War Cabal:
Lvl 3 Sorcerer: Astral Grimoire, Force Staff, Melta Bombs
3x Lvl 3 Sorcerer: Force Staff, Melta Bombs.
Rubric Marines.
Scarab Occult Terminators.

Auxiliary
Spawn

So the Sorcerers can go in either the spawn, marines or terminator units to keep them safe and they follow the zerker star around casting invis on it. Also thanks to all the “tax units” the list actually has quite a lot of MSU to run around and cap objectives whilst the Zerkerstar is off smashing face.
Not sure on the points exactly but I think it should be doable to get this in 1750 points.

Looks cool.

I.. think you might struggle at 1750. The TS stuff especially costs so many points.

I almost feel like each legion will need to find ways to stand on their own since they're all pretty pricey.

Here is my provisional 1850 for WE

Chaos Warband
Chaos Lord 197
MoK, VoTLW, Terminator Armour, Sigil, Tailsman of Burning Blood
Lightning Claw, Chainfist

10 Chaos Space Marines 205
Bolt Pistols, CCWs, Frag, Krak, MoK, VoTLW
2x Meltaguns, Champion - Power Fist

Rhino 35
Combi-Bolter, Smoke, Lights

10 Chaos Space Marines 205
Bolt Pistols, CCWs, Frag, Krak, MoK, VoTLW
2x Meltaguns, Champion - Power Fist

5 Chaos Bikers 165
Twin Bolters, Bolt Pistols, CCWs, Frag, Krak, Power fist
2x Meltaguns, MoK, VoTLW

5 Chaos Bikers 155
Twin Bolters, Bolt Pistols, CCWs, Frag, Krak, Power Maul
2x Meltaguns, MoK, VoTLW

7 Chaos Terminators 274
MoK, VoTLW, Combi-Bolters, Power Weapons
2x Chain Fists, 2x Combi Meltas

Land Raider 230
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, 2x Twin Linked Lascannons
Search Light, Smoke

Helbrute 100
2x Power Fists

Lord of the Legion
Daemon Prince 250
DoK, VoTLW, Power Armour, Wings, The Berzerker Glaive

Spawn
1 Chaos Spawn 32
MoK

Marines jump in the LR, know the lord and the termies are big sink/risk foot sloggin it but they get an average FT charge of 26" so hope for the best, mainly doing it because it looks so cool . Have a second list where they seperate into two units in 2 LR with kharn

thanks to the core codex CSM still suffer from bad points cost balance. GW seems to be under the impression that giving free VotLW would be enough (it's not even close). Even giving marks for free wouldn't help all that much, as legions that can't take them are left behind such as night lords, iron warriors and alpha legion (iron warriors to a lesser extent).

It would have been interesting if the reduced the total points cost of a detachment by a percentage based on the amount of units and/or size of them. This would differentiate us from gladius marines and give us some flexibility, as CSM are not as rigid in their army structure as normal marines.

Something like "every unit in this detachment reduces the total points cost of this detachment by 2% (just guesswork atm), every time a unit is doubled in size (by buying more bodies) it adds another 2% reduction. All points reductions are cumulative, no more than 25% of total cost reduction can be achived".

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, technically you can still join indeps with different marks to an unmarked unit - like khornedogs.

No.

The rules summary for marks bans this.
As as example, suppose all the dogs get shot out, you are left with an illegal unit.

it says.
An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a you nit
with a d ifferent Mark of Chaos

Nothing about models with different marks - only units. And if you join Kharn to khornedogs, the unit doesn't become "a unit with mark of khorne". So you can freely join Ahriman in there too.