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Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list.

Bezerkers just got heavily shafted. +1 WS is not worth +4 points, and chainaxes are not worth the addition +3 on top of that 4.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list.
w
Bezerkers just got heavily shafted. +1 WS is not worth +4 points, and chainaxes are not worth the addition +3 on top of that 4.

Chaos warband Havoc and Chosen are superior to Plague marines at MSU, since there both cheaper can take more weapons and in the case of Havocs can load up on relentless heavy weapons instead of specials. You do have to pay a tax on 2 squads of chaos space marines, but even then you can give them a single special.

 koooaei wrote:
you're never happy. If i win eldar you'll say that eldar was garbage

There's garbage Eldar lists to be fair, but that's not the point.

You don't understand how out of date Mantis Warriors are. For recap:
1. They have a silly clause for the main part of their Chapter Tactics that doesn't allow bulky units to use it. Not even White Scars have that anymore (which is stupid because Centurions really shouldn't be able to use Hit and Run. I digress though).
2. That part of the Chapter Tactic gives them Move Through Cover and Hammer Of Wrath. Charging though terrain gives them Furious Charge, which means very few units will ever make use of that.
3. The next part allows them to reroll to seize, which can be nice, and then they still have a clause saying they can take from Divination. All chapters can do that now.

It'd be like saying you beat Black Templars. Even in a BDC, they aren't good. In fact, most of the FW Chapter Tactics need some updating. You're literally using a 6th edition rule set.

I mean, I don't think I'm never happy as much as you're too happy at everything. You don't understand how little insight that game gave you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list.
w
Bezerkers just got heavily shafted. +1 WS is not worth +4 points, and chainaxes are not worth the addition +3 on top of that 4.

Chaos warband Havoc and Chosen are superior to Plague marines at MSU, since there both cheaper can take more weapons and in the case of Havocs can load up on relentless heavy weapons instead of specials. You do have to pay a tax on 2 squads of chaos space marines, but even then you can give them a single special.

Chosen are definitely silly.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list..

5x MoN Havocs with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 100/110/120 pts
5x MoN Chosen with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 115/125/135 pts
5x Plague Marines with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 130/140/150 pts

Granted, the PM's do get defensive grenades and poisoned attacks, but that's not the reason you take them in a MSU-approach.
Now ponder the fact that Havocs can have 4 special weapons in a 5man squad, and Chosen can have 5!

The PM's are troops, that's the only real benefit they have over Havocs and Chosen in this scenario imo.

I can't remember if Typhus can turn Cultists outside his detachment into Zombies. If so, Alpha Legion with an allied Typhus might be pretty bonkers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
you're never happy. If i win eldar you'll say that eldar was garbage

There's garbage Eldar lists

see


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list..

5x MoN Havocs with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 100/110/120 pts
5x MoN Chosen with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 115/125/135 pts
5x Plague Marines with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 130/140/150 pts

Granted, the PM's do get defensive grenades and poisoned attacks, but that's not the reason you take them in a MSU-approach.
Now ponder the fact that Havocs can have 4 special weapons in a 5man squad, and Chosen can have 5!

The PM's are troops, that's the only real benefit they have over Havocs and Chosen in this scenario imo.

They can also fart in the enemy's general direction if taken in their new special formation with Typhus.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
you're never happy. If i win eldar you'll say that eldar was garbage

There's garbage Eldar lists

see


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list..

5x MoN Havocs with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 100/110/120 pts
5x MoN Chosen with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 115/125/135 pts
5x Plague Marines with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 130/140/150 pts

Granted, the PM's do get defensive grenades and poisoned attacks, but that's not the reason you take them in a MSU-approach.
Now ponder the fact that Havocs can have 4 special weapons in a 5man squad, and Chosen can have 5!

The PM's are troops, that's the only real benefit they have over Havocs and Chosen in this scenario imo.

They can also fart in the enemy's general direction if taken in their new special formation with Typhus.

And as you can see you didn't even bother to address the point I made.

Guys go argue in pm ffs.

Rest of you, Death Guard should be hard to kill and brutal to fight. Not jump packs and normal marines. Fitting seven into 1500 is hard so I dropped that idea, in 1850 maaaaybe its do able. Termies for backfield. Prince is going bonkers with a 2+ cover jinking and 4+ cover in the open, and poison novas and weapons and omg this is so much fun........

My list, and the plan is to spawn me some daemons oh yeah.

++ vectorium (1500pts) ++

+ Core (691pts) +

········Plague Colony (691pts)
············Chaos Lord [Burning Brand of Skalanthrax, Chainfist, Mark of Nurgle, Sigil of corruption, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War, Warlord]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]

+ Command (255pts) +

········Lord of the Legion (255pts)
············Daemon Prince [Mastery Level 1, Nurgle, Power Armour, Puscleaver, Wings]

+ Auxiliary (554pts) +

········Terminator Annihilation Force (554pts)
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-Bolter, Powerfist]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-Bolter, Powerfist]
················Terminator Champion [Chainfist, Combi Bolter]
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
············Sorcerer [Additional Mastery Level, Force Axe, Mark of Nurgle, Power Sword, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

Is fleshmetal skeleton or Stormbolt Plate on a Tzeenth prince good enough to make Daemon Princes worth taking again?

 Rydria wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


Berzerker 19 ppm compared to marked CSM at 15ppm or whats even more embarassing is a bike at 22ppm or a raptor at 19ppm
Plague marine 24 ppm compared to marked CSM at 16ppm That's 8 fething ppm for defensive grenades and a plague knife! Oh and btw a nurgle biker 26ppm! or again a raptor 20ppm!!!!! thats 4ppm cheaper, still have access to 2 specials per 5 and they move 12" a turn and have deepstrike.
Noise marine 17ppm, marked CSM 15ppm

Noise Marines at least get unique weapons that still gives them a tactical niche unlike berserkers and Plague marines who are just outright inferior to basic chaos marines of there legion.

I'm actually going to try going all in on the Kakophoni formation shredding sonic blasters also aren't that bad mathematically the strength 4 version with shred is better at killing most targets than a heavy bolter/equivalent, while the strength 5 version is superior to a scatter laser vs everything with a toughness value (except things with toughness 10 since the blasters can't harm them) (Bare in mind i'm not a tournament gamer so I probably have a lower standard of good than some of you)

I respect your decision either way, and I have no problem making an army out of a theme or fluff so don't get discouraged by my push back. However this is a tactics thread so I feel that while we can respect the theme of our builds we have to also take off the rose tinted lenses. Heavy bolters are not good, I am not even going to list the reasons as I feel like that would be talking down to the thread, and shredding blasters are now where near a scatter laser, to suggest so is so disingenuous and insulting to the scatter lasers power. Scatter lasers have a 36" range for one and for two are only available on platforms that allow them to move and shoot, so may as well be assault. They fire an additional shot, and have strength 6, shredding s5 is nowhere near as god as flat s6. I can prove it by asking you, if you had the option of s6 blasters or shredding s5 which would you take? Clearly the one that can wreck vehicles, ID t3, and still ruins infantry and MC's alike.

Again, I field noise marines myself, but because the doom siren and blast master are still worth the price of admission. Blasters still don't synergize with the models carrying them and cost far too much. Again, in order to get the strength benefit and shred, you are forced into taking 6 units, that's 6 champion taxes on shooting units. That champion tax can't be ignored since it is 60 points from the formation that are worthless since your kitting them to shoot. But by far the biggest issue I have is the lack of obsec, the only reason my army wins 75% of the time is due to this amazing rule. 160pts for 5 noise marines with a blastmaster in a rhino on an objective. With proper objective placement you can start the game sitting 3 of those units on 3 objectives at least most of the time. Also try to always place them in or near terrain, opt for night fight. This combo is a PITA to remove from an objective early on and lobs a small blast, ignores cover, pinning battle canon at enemy objectives. The kakaphoni can still field these units at the same price, but rather then 3-4 units, I now need a redundant number of them and they don't need to be touched on objectives. I'll tell you from experience as a seasoned Dark Eldar player that the kakaphoni would be my wet dream in any match. MSU beasts and min bike units can jump on your objectives for the contest every turn and due to their discount price compared to yours I can double down making you waste those expensive shots on a handful of wounds while still contesting you since I can swarm you. Now try a CAD with those noise marines and it's a literal 180 tactically. I now have to waste precious AT trying to pop a rhino only so 5 fearless bodies can disembark onto that same objective using the wreck to block LOS to most of my poison.

The other issue I have not running a CAD for the record is the fact that if I run an EC detachment for the drugs and FNP 6+ I can't field noise marines in the chaos warband again denying me obsec. The formations don't allow for retaining obsec which sucks, so again it encourages MoS CSM, raptors and chosen. I've gone full circle on the flaw, albeit a nitpick with this release. Beyond fluff reasons, there is next to no reason in running cult troops outside a CAD. Then even in a CAD it is not worth it except for in the case of weapon load outs for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:
Guys go argue in pm ffs.

Rest of you, Death Guard should be hard to kill and brutal to fight. Not jump packs and normal marines. Fitting seven into 1500 is hard so I dropped that idea, in 1850 maaaaybe its do able. Termies for backfield. Prince is going bonkers with a 2+ cover jinking and 4+ cover in the open, and poison novas and weapons and omg this is so much fun........

My list, and the plan is to spawn me some daemons oh yeah.

++ vectorium (1500pts) ++

+ Core (691pts) +

········Plague Colony (691pts)
············Chaos Lord [Burning Brand of Skalanthrax, Chainfist, Mark of Nurgle, Sigil of corruption, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War, Warlord]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]
············Plague Marines [4x Plague Marine, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Rhino [Havoc Launcher]
················Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague knife]

+ Command (255pts) +

········Lord of the Legion (255pts)
············Daemon Prince [Mastery Level 1, Nurgle, Power Armour, Puscleaver, Wings]

+ Auxiliary (554pts) +

········Terminator Annihilation Force (554pts)
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-Bolter, Powerfist]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-Bolter, Powerfist]
················Terminator Champion [Chainfist, Combi Bolter]
············Chaos Terminators [Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
················Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Sword]
············Sorcerer [Additional Mastery Level, Force Axe, Mark of Nurgle, Power Sword, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

Your plague colony is 38 points per wound... No obsec...no special weapons... Why bother with the plague colony is my question? The only benefit is -1 ws and -1 initiative at point blank range, at which point you have no teeth anyway. Without obsec your not scoring either. Hilariously your next option also lacks obsec but hat a 2+ 5++ and both ranged and cobat punch with psychic buffs at 55 points per wound. Why not just double down on the terminators, Take the DP in a CAD with cultists and give the DP the pox walker hive and have obsec T4 zombies that regain in number each turn on your back field objectives?

Just a quick question regarding Psychic power selection as I have read a number of ways to play this and wonder if I am doing it wrong?

With a marked sorc or prince the rule book clearly states they get the primaris power on top of those they know. As this is newer than the codex does this not take presedence over the stipulation to generate 1 power from the gods discipline?

I have played quite a few ganes with chaos but rarely use sorcerers. I am taking the number of powers their level allows from whatever I like then the marked power as a bonus, my local GW shop manager also thinks I should be able to take the primaris from another discipline if I role all in one, potentially having 4 powers for a lvl 2 sorc. Is this not correct/how others play?

Sorry if this should not be in this thread but it has a large impact on how I intend to use my Word Bearers going forward!

Hi guys I think my list helps plague colony work better... what do you think?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/710414.page

I've maxed the squads to get the toughness reduction benefit. They'll be in the opponents face soon thanks to 4+ cover Rhinos (smoke launchers). I would consider mixing specials to keep them flexible and of course the terminators can beam down and join in the party turn two give the opponent plenty of target priority issues. Can easily jiggle the points to get burning brand on the sorcerer beaming down. Remember the leader of the annihilation force doesnt pay for their armour and Votlw is free.

So I ran a list of maelstrom of gore, headlined by a juggerlord with a choppy relic in each squad. This was at 1250, and at 1850 my plan was to expand it with a chaos knight inside a CAD (with squads of MoK CSM as objective squatters with some teeth).

Though I got a first turn charge in all 3 games (even in hammer and anvil with the talisman squad), I think the list seriously lacks durability. I'll have to play around with it more to see how I can boost the durability of the squads. The juggerlords are nice, but I would love to get 2+ armor on them, but I can't find a way to do that while maintaining their 12" move in a WE detachment. Or even just normal CSM. Oh and by the way, in dawn of war, 4 first turn charges (all of the maelstrom squads).

I'm thinking I might have to ally in Be'Lakor and just go for one true deathstar sadly.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Plague Marines also have 2 specials at 5, plague knives and blight grenades, making them still the kings of msu special weapon spam in a Death Guard list..

5x MoN Havocs with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 100/110/120 pts
5x MoN Chosen with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 115/125/135 pts
5x Plague Marines with 2x Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasmaguns - 130/140/150 pts

Granted, the PM's do get defensive grenades and poisoned attacks, but that's not the reason you take them in a MSU-approach.
Now ponder the fact that Havocs can have 4 special weapons in a 5man squad, and Chosen can have 5!

The PM's are troops, that's the only real benefit they have over Havocs and Chosen in this scenario imo.

well if they are in the warband those chosen and havocs have obsec anyhoo

Anyone thought about relentless/fnp rapier batteries using Purge detachment? Hades rattlecannons or laser destroyers crawling all over the table seems like they'd be pretty nasty. If you're taking heavy bolter havoks, why not just go whole hog and take 3x quad heavy bolter rapiers for more dakka and more toughness

EDIT: bah, just checked and rapier crews can take marks or veterans. nevermind!

 luke1705 wrote:
So I ran a list of maelstrom of gore, headlined by a juggerlord with a choppy relic in each squad. This was at 1250, and at 1850 my plan was to expand it with a chaos knight inside a CAD (with squads of MoK CSM as objective squatters with some teeth).

Though I got a first turn charge in all 3 games (even in hammer and anvil with the talisman squad), I think the list seriously lacks durability. I'll have to play around with it more to see how I can boost the durability of the squads. The juggerlords are nice, but I would love to get 2+ armor on them, but I can't find a way to do that while maintaining their 12" move in a WE detachment. Or even just normal CSM. Oh and by the way, in dawn of war, 4 first turn charges (all of the maelstrom squads).

I'm thinking I might have to ally in Be'Lakor and just go for one true deathstar sadly.

Why so down, seems like the list is doing what it is expected to do. I mean 4 first turn charges in legacy style deployment is pretty nuts. You can't expect to charge the enemy before he gets to reach for his measuring tape AND table him with no riposte. It's a meat grinder style army, not sure any of the new chaos stuff can be expected to take home a trophy from any of the other top dogs.

Maybe a tell us your list specifically and each game/ opponent for perspective? Hard top tell what you mean by heavy losses without knowing what you started with and what died to what.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McGibs wrote:
Anyone thought about relentless/fnp rapier batteries using Purge detachment? Hades rattlecannons or laser destroyers crawling all over the table seems like they'd be pretty nasty. If you're taking heavy bolter havoks, why not just go whole hog and take 3x quad heavy bolter rapiers for more dakka and more toughness

Can they purchase marks? That would be the only hurdle otherwise yea, gross.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
So I ran a list of maelstrom of gore, headlined by a juggerlord with a choppy relic in each squad. This was at 1250, and at 1850 my plan was to expand it with a chaos knight inside a CAD (with squads of MoK CSM as objective squatters with some teeth).

Though I got a first turn charge in all 3 games (even in hammer and anvil with the talisman squad), I think the list seriously lacks durability. I'll have to play around with it more to see how I can boost the durability of the squads. The juggerlords are nice, but I would love to get 2+ armor on them, but I can't find a way to do that while maintaining their 12" move in a WE detachment. Or even just normal CSM. Oh and by the way, in dawn of war, 4 first turn charges (all of the maelstrom squads).

I'm thinking I might have to ally in Be'Lakor and just go for one true deathstar sadly.

Why so down, seems like the list is doing what it is expected to do. I mean 4 first turn charges in legacy style deployment is pretty nuts. You can't expect to charge the enemy before he gets to reach for his measuring tape AND table him with no riposte. It's a meat grinder style army, not sure any of the new chaos stuff can be expected to take home a trophy from any of the other top dogs.

Maybe a tell us your list specifically and each game/ opponent for perspective? Hard top tell what you mean by heavy losses without knowing what you started with and what died to what.

Had the WE Decurion detachment with with the Maelstrom of Gore (no upgrades)
As my Auxiliary, just a MoK Spawn
And the 4 command choices were:
1) Juggerlord w/MoK, Talisman, power fist
2) Juggerlord w/MoK, Gorefather
3) Jugglerlord w/MoK, Axe of Blinding Fury
4) Juggerlord w/MoK, Bloodfeeder

The only real upgrade I had points for was a single power first on one of the berzerker champions.

It'll do great in Dawn of War games where it can go first, and of course I can expand the list at 1850. The games I played were also odd because they were 1250 points per player, but 2500 points per side. So I was literally the meat grinder. And they did that job admirably. First game, I played with Space Marine allies (we did random pairings) vs Space Marines and Imperial Knights. In the first game, we went first and I rolled pretty decently, which allowed me to pop two land raiders and and imperial knight on turn one, plus hilariously fail to kill a single space marine captain. That game went well, needless to say.

The second game, I played with an Ork player against a Space Marine and Eldar player. Probably should have known how that game was going to go from the get-go, especially when we rolled hammer and anvil deployment. The talisman squad did still make their charge (good job guys) and that was also the squad with kharn in it, so he went toe to toe with a wraith knight (sword and board version) causing it to have to take 5 invulnerable saves. Only one failed feel no pain. Womp. The knight then proceeded to d out both kharn and the lord (failed 2+ LOS is super OP, let me tell you). The marine player didn't have a super good list, but 3 grav cents with the hunter's eye plus a screen of d scythe wraith guard was good enough to close that one out handily. Oh, also there was a second wraith knight (shooty variety) which 6'd gorefather at range (yet another failed LOS). The zerkers really wanted to prove themselves in combat I guess.

The third game was even stranger, a 2 v 2 v 2 with a sort of triangular deployment. It was the fluffiest game, with me and another CSM player vs IK and SM vs Eldar and Harlequins. The mistake that I made (though I don't feel that I had any other choice) was splitting my four mini death stars into two fronts, sending two towards the IK player and two towards the Eldar/Harlequins. It was pure Maelstrom, and Kharn killed a knight without skipping a beat (a theme that I enjoyed thoroughly throughout both games this happened) and almost forced a second knight to try and charge him, which would have been great for Kharn....but then he died to the heavy stubber. The other front got brutalized by a Solitaire from the detachment where he re-rolls invulnerable saves of 1. Truly, I've never failed so many 3+ saves in my life...was at 8 out of 9 straight at one point.

I know that these games were outliers from the norm for a number of reasons, but I still worry because the lists were hardly super-competitive except for probably the 3 IKs at 1250. I just don't think the list has enough durability to stand up to other armies without Be'Lakor, and even then I'm reduced to one death star casting invis and if that gets denied....well sad times.

I'm interested in running a mono khorne army with the maelstrom of gore in a WE detachment, plus probably a CSM CAD with Be'Lakor and a forge world Chaos Knight Errant. Sadly, that can't be a WE CAD....I don't know if Be'Lakor can even be in a legion. Will have to look into that, especially if that benefits the Knight somehow. I'll keep you guys updated, as an 1850 along those lines will most likely be what I run next week, but I'm open to suggestions.

Alright, I'm really indecisive about how to run a DP with this new book alongside my Night Lords. I'm planning on running a Raptor Talon, and toying between a warband under the Murder Talon, or a CAD so I can get my fire raptor in there.

Should I run him with the Stormbolt plate and Mark of Tzeentch to make him ultra-durable, or throw the Black mace on him to make him a close combat monster?

He's less effective in combat without the mace, but you're looking at a 2+ armor save and then a 2+ jink save, rerolling 1's...

Anyone else seeing some great legion combos? I'm liking a Death guard detachment with world eaters. The DG handle the shooting and objective secured while WE use their nice bonuses to cover quick CC.

 buddha wrote:
Anyone else seeing some great legion combos? I'm liking a Death guard detachment with world eaters. The DG handle the shooting and objective secured while WE use their nice bonuses to cover quick CC.

I'm just liking the Death Guard because Nurgle is SO COOL haha. For sure I'll be trying them out with the world eaters because you're totally right about the shooting and durability, which is exactly what you want with objective squatters.

I just played a game (1850) vs Tau + BA with the new DG Vectorium (ye, because neither do i see any reason to take the colony, sadly)
My list was (everything MoN and VotLW)
Warband
-Typhus (i know hes not cost effective, but hes my favourite, besides i handsculpted him, so hes going nowhere until mortarion arrives)
-5 Chosen with 4 plasmas and PF
-2x 5 CSM with plasma/melta and PF + Rhinos with Dirges (never did get close enough vs Tau to do anything, but i just cant resist the chance of once being useful)
-2x3 Bikes with 2x meltas and Powersword
- 5 havocs with 4 AC
Terminator Annihilator Force
-5x Termies with reaper, combiplasmas/melta, power axes and one PF
-3x Termies with LCs (i know, garbage, need to retool these)
-3x termies with 2xCF, combiplasma/melta/flamer, power axe
- Sorci lv3, termiarmour, combisomething, force axe, blight grenades, spell familiar

i wanted to roll some teleporting shenanigans on sinistrum, i ended up with reroll saves (was great vs missiles) and adamantium will/fearless (useless) plus regain wounds on nurgle. typhus had regain wounds and debuff D3

He had a Tau CAD with buffmander, darkstrider with shotgun guys in DF, kroot snipers, missilesides, and a hammerhead plus the new BA 3x5 Termi DS-assault thing with TH+SHs

The game was 3 secret TOs at hammer/anvil. It didnt go bad, i just didnt have luck with my TOs (at least not as much as him), so i ended up losing, but my army actually performed well in my eyes, i just made some mistakes (need to think through what unit to hate with termies to maximize the DS-shooting, etc..). I expected the guys to be a pain in the ass to kill, and that they were by all means, i just need to figure out, how to optimise the offensive punch. I had the feeling, if i just had to sit on objectives, i wouldve won easily, but to hop around for TOs, DG is a bit slow, characteristically.

neither of us are power gamers, so even if i saw a top dog tau list i wouldnt know it, the same with him, but he is my primary gaming opponent, so he knows what to expect from my army, hence the T-ignoring kroot, and the T reducing darkstrider. Still its a casual game, so i'm not primarily interested in what ways our lists suck balls in a tournament environment, but rather how to optimize it while retaining its main shape in your opinion?

edit: do i read it right, that chosen actually could have had 5 plasma guns?

This is a build I was thinking of, when trying to make use of daemonology

Word Bearers Grand host

Lord of the Legion 320
Daemon Prince
- Nurgle
- Power armour
- Wings
- + 3 mastery levels
- Spell familiar
- The malefic tome

Lord of the Legion 150
Sorcerer
- Terminator armour
- +2 mastery levels
- spell familiar

The lost and the Damned 305
(stock)

Raptor Talon 585
Chaos Lord
- Jump pack
- Lightning claw
- Powerfist
- Aura of dark Glory

Raptors
- 2x meltagun

Warp Talons
- Mark of Slaanesh

Warp talons
- Mark of Slaanesh

Hellforged Warpack 485
Warpsmith

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

1845 total

So the Prince rolls on Daemonology, fishing for cursed earth, making him Warlord might help out (+1 mastery potential), the sorc is there for wc battery and support rolling on either ectomancy or sinistrum, Using Cursed earth to get the talons into position of some juicy 3+ units (MoS is there to get first attacks in). Daemon engines are in there because I lik them, but could be swappend for something else, the LatD are there to fish for Daemon princes.

There are a few problem though, as the DP is really expensive, and getting it into position turn 2 can get tricky. This list is also left to the mercy of the dice gods, as getting the right power(s) is critical, otherwise the raports could scatter off and just stand there.

An other option is to drop the sorc and hellforged warpack to get another daemon prince and switch the raptors out for warp talons (maby get in 1 more unit of warp talons even)
Any thoughts?

trindaros wrote:
This is a build I was thinking of, when trying to make use of daemonology

Word Bearers Grand host

Lord of the Legion
- Daemon Prince

A bold move!

The Raptor Talon loadout is atrocious. Lose MoS on the Warp Talons and then lose the Warp Talons for more Melta Raptors. Put the Sigil on the Lord and then maybe use remaining points to put in more Raptors into the existing squads.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Raptor Talon loadout is atrocious. Lose MoS on the Warp Talons and then lose the Warp Talons for more Melta Raptors. Put the Sigil on the Lord and then maybe use remaining points to put in more Raptors into the existing squads.

I actually took the warp talons, because they don't scatter when they DS within 12 inch form the DP if he gets Cursed earth up, it's not there for the +1 invul save. I took MoS as More often than not, I'd face marines.

I think you're looking at the berzerkers as too much of a frontal assault unit. As you found, they don't have any staying power after the initial bumrush. In order to give them any kind of protection, they either need Rhinos crashing into the enemy lines alongside them for cover, or Raptors rushing into combat with them, or some other unit taking advantage of the WE benefits to join in the fray and take pressure off the berzerkers.

This book is driving me mad. I want everything and can have nothing lol. Be it points, legion restrictions, decurion restrictions etc...there's always something that causes problems.
It's like an endless cycle of finding solutions or cool combos which bring their own new problems which lead to new ideas, etc etc XD

trindaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Raptor Talon loadout is atrocious. Lose MoS on the Warp Talons and then lose the Warp Talons for more Melta Raptors. Put the Sigil on the Lord and then maybe use remaining points to put in more Raptors into the existing squads.

I actually took the warp talons, because they don't scatter when they DS within 12 inch form the DP if he gets Cursed earth up, it's not there for the +1 invul save. I took MoS as More often than not, I'd face marines.

That's relying to much on a Power for a unit that's still outperformed by Raptors. You need the anti tank anyway. Run into more than one Imperial Knight and you've got nothing outside of Maulerfiends, who aren't going to do well in that fight.

I mean honestly I think you need to play more games with your list in a more conventional format. Team matches can be loads of fun but they don't actually tell you much on how one army will do on its own. I played in a team tourney with space wolves and my team mate had tyranids, it was a crazy good combo and we went undefeated with some bizarre lists that on there own wouldn't have done as well.

Some of the enemies you faced seem crazy as well, I mean eldar with D scythe guard and two wraith knights paired with hunters eye cents? Not much anyone can do against that lol. That would table even a min maxed death guard list fairly easily. Doesn't help you were paired with orks lol, probably should have been you and the marine player verses the ork and eldar player but random pairing and all lol. Thats what 40k needs, more random ha ha.

 Roknar wrote:
This book is driving me mad. I want everything and can have nothing lol. Be it points, legion restrictions, decurion restrictions etc...there's always something that causes problems.
It's like an endless cycle of finding solutions or cool combos which bring their own new problems which lead to new ideas, etc etc XD

Glorious isn't it?

and now battlescribe won't work and I can't even deal.