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That's not a question to traitor legions really.

Don't ask why some wargear appears useless, we'll be here all day

macluvin wrote:
My one question is why do plasma pistols cost 15 points… a melta does everything it does except better and cheaper. Only thing the plasma pistol does extra is grant an extra attack in close combat but that isnt worth the 5 points and gets hot vs.an extra strength the melta special rule and ap 1 for that vehicle damage chart… what the heck is that?

They cost the same in every book, it's silly.

Right now I'm trying to work on my jointed Alpha Legion/Death Guard army. My question is how do we do Chosen?

Obviously there's an ability to spam special weapons, so we would need a few extra bullet catchers if we go above 2 weapons. I was thinking at first 3 Plasma Guns in a group of 7 with a Rhino, which comes up to 206 points. They get real close and are safe for maybe a turn hiding in the Rhino.
The next idea is to just take two weapons at the stock size with a Rhino. With Plasma Guns that is 155 points. That clearly doesn't take up a lot of points, but once the Rhino is dead they're dead. They're still T4 3+ bodies after all, and they're pretty expensive without much more benefit (they have more attacks and LD. YAY? Though I suppose you're paying for the benefit of being able to spam weapons, but whether that's worth it has yet to be seen).
The other next option is to just go ballistic and buy 5 special weapons and a Rhino and hope you live to see something die horribly. 6 dudes total with 5 Plasma Guns is 218 points with a Rhino, but the squad becomes an even easier target to kill compared to #1, and is much more expensive by a unit of Cultists compared to #2.

Either option presents itself as better than the regular Marine squad. Compare the first option I created with 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns a Rhino at 205 points. For one more point we lose 3 Bullet Catchers but there's more Plasma Guns, ergo there's a more dangerous squad. The same logic will take place with Melta Guns as well, but I think our Bikers will be fine with doing that, but if that isn't satisfactory we can ally in Nurgle Bikers to actually get the job done or Gorepack to get the good stuff cheaper.

Plasma gun chosen create an interesting problem; chosen with plasma guns are a decent choice in any warband, but it seems a waste of their close combat ability if they can't even charge after shooting, so I'd prefer to go for meltas or flamers. Give plasma guns to the havocs. I suppose that's irrelevant if Death Guard chosen get relentless though

I tried to do chosen.. but when the point hit the limit, a 5 man marine squad with one special weapon one combi weapon fits a lot easier

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Plasma gun chosen create an interesting problem; chosen with plasma guns are a decent choice in any warband, but it seems a waste of their close combat ability if they can't even charge after shooting, so I'd prefer to go for meltas or flamers. Give plasma guns to the havocs. I suppose that's irrelevant if Death Guard chosen get relentless though

Their close combat ability is having 3 attacks each.

That's a trap in the same way a Guardsman could have two attacks base, but not as extreme in the example I give. Think about their transport options and how likely they're charge anyway. You could Infiltrate without the Rhino, but that's a whole turn out in the open for them to die. They aren't getting their melee weapons as cheaply as Vanguard or Honour Guard do (the latter coming with Bolters they'll use for maybe one turn, if that). The Alpha Legion doesn't have any melee benefits if they want to charge compared to other warbands.

Yeah you would have the option, but it isn't a fantastic one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I tried to do chosen.. but when the point hit the limit, a 5 man marine squad with one special weapon one combi weapon fits a lot easier

That gets even more expensive. A single 5 man with a Plasma and Combi with a Rhino is 135 points. How is that saving any points in the long run?
It is a cheaper initial investment that goes wrong right after you get another one.

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but i came across it last game, where i rolled the +1 to fnp death guard warlord trait in the vectorium Its wording is "add +1 to your warlords fnp rolls", iirc, so the warlord loses his reroll on 1s, or are rerolls happening on natural 1s before the modifier?

 zedsdead wrote:
Iron Warriors and The Purge Detachment from Vraks seems like a doable option ?

1hq and 2 elites mandatory and up to 8 Troop slots. Leaves lots of room for oblits. and the addition of barrage which IW can take advantage of . Also can add in a Traitor Knight or even the Brass Scorpion for Stupid.

Havent looked into it a lot but could this be the way to go with IWs ?

Barrage can only come from the Land Raider Achililes and Thunderhawk from the chaos arsenal. I've been trying to theorycraft a Purge detachment for ages but its insanely expensive with that Achilles. You'd have to take Chosen flamers and/or havoc missiles launchers to make use of it (to get the shred). If you're not going for a ton of flamers/missiles, plus an Achilles there's no reason whatsoever to go for that detachment. The unorthodox fore org isn't worth the loss of ObSec without making use of the detachments other bonus'.

 Muzsikus wrote:
Sorry if this has already been addressed, but i came across it last game, where i rolled the +1 to fnp death guard warlord trait in the vectorium Its wording is "add +1 to your warlords fnp rolls", iirc, so the warlord loses his reroll on 1s, or are rerolls happening on natural 1s before the modifier?

I would say the re-roll triggers off the roll of a natural 1.

i feel like a dope complaining about something, when this book makes me giddy with all the options. But I really wish demon engines had a 1-3 option like spawn. I want to throw in a single forgefiend to fill out some points, but the option is none, or 650 points for 3+warpsmith.

in that vein, the most affordable way i can think of to do that is a forgefiend and 2 hellbrutes. (don't judge i love the models) still expensive, but not half you army expensive. So can I get some thoughts on hellbrute loadouts, most discussions i've been able to find are from pre-extra attacks faq. I'm thinking plasma+fist. Threatening enough in combat to run interference against drop pods and whatnot, but mostly sitting in back lobbing blast templates. +1 to cover save from range with death guard isn't too shabby either.

Yeah it would be sweet. The thousand sons get it .. grumble..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can cheat and take a KDK allied detachment.

Alright, here's my first go at Alpha Legion + Death Guard. After doing some testing I will be doing Alpha Legion + Codex: Gorepack and see if it yields different results. Anyways...

Detachment: Alpha Legion CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mindveil

x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x15 Cultists
x15 Cultists

Detachment: Death Guard CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mark Of Nurgle, Blight Grenades

x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino
x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino

x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle
x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle

My general plan would be to Infiltrate the Cultists further than the Chosen, as they're something I don't plan to have at all by T2. At that point, Nurgle will have made his way down there, and both Lords will be in their own unit together, and with Mindveil I can guarantee they're charging every turn for the most part.

My issue? I have 27 points left. I have a couple of options:
1. Borrow Flamer Cultists as everyone has them but doesn't use them.
2. Add a Flamer to each Chosen Squad as a deterrent to charges on top of potentially nasty Overwatch.
3. Give the Plague Marines Plasma Guns instead, as how much Melta could I possibly need?
My other issue is my lack of Heavy Support in terms of range. There's potentially nothing in my backfield. I'm unsure how comfortable I am with that as I've always had some sorta camping unit.

I like the Deathguard and Alpha Legion combo too.

Take a Vectorium but add a Alpha Legion CAD with a Sorcerer or Lord to a unit of Terminators from the DG detachment. Give that guy a Mindveil and it could really help the movement issues of terminators.

I'd really like to use terminators and I think FNP (reroll 1s) + T5 + ~stealth + movement bonus can really help them become somewhat viable.

Take 2 units (or more) cultists in your AL CAD, and they get infiltrate. Seems like a really good combo to me. And, if you want to take Poxwalker Hive, there is nothing that stops you from using it on the AL cultists.

There doesn't seem to be a rule that stops other legions from joining each other.

NamelessBard wrote:
I like the Deathguard and Alpha Legion combo too.

Take a Vectorium but add a Alpha Legion CAD with a Sorcerer or Lord to a unit of Terminators from the DG detachment. Give that guy a Mindveil and it could really help the movement issues of terminators.

I'd really like to use terminators and I think FNP (reroll 1s) + T5 + ~stealth + movement bonus can really help them become somewhat viable.

Take 2 units (or more) cultists in your AL CAD, and they get infiltrate. Seems like a really good combo to me. And, if you want to take Poxwalker Hive, there is nothing that stops you from using it on the AL cultists.

There doesn't seem to be a rule that stops other legions from joining each other.

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Tried fitting a kharybdis in key list. It's not a fleshed out list by any stretch of the imagination.


Black Legion Speartip
(hounds as core) 1 juggerlord with axe, 5 man csm, 5 man zerkers, 3 man bike all naked
(raptor Talon) 1 lord with claw and key, three 5 man units of double melta raptors

1 Black Legion CAD

1 Black mace nurgle prince lvl3 (and armour), one three man termi plasmacide and a 5 man chosen unit with 4 melta
And finally a kharybdis and an obsec claw for the chosen.

That's 1800 points. Considering a 1850 list, that doesn't leave much to work with. There's some leeway with the prince, but the rest is about as barebones as it gets.
The prince is 315 points, but might be worth it. Though I could just be shoehorning it in because I have a converted model lol.
I'd probably drop the armour mind you, to round out the hounds a bit more, maybe even drop a level.

On the other hand, dropping the prince for another lord to join the chosen or one the hound csm could also be good.
That would free the points to add some bodies rather than having everything as msu and give out some fearless. Besides, the hounds formation isn't much use as is.

With the prince, for turn one, you would run up with the juggerlord + bikes, the prince, deepstrike the chosen to disembark them and hopefully unlock the key.
Maybe plasma chosen would work better than melta for that, but getting behind a knight before it can tear you up could be worth the risk. Besides, they could still use their extra attacks. Might even be an idea to drop the weapons on the raptor bodyguard. The points could be more useful in other places.

Turn two, you would drop 2 non scatter raptors (which WILL assault), 1 ObSec plasmacide and the kharybdis. By now you should be able to assault with the juggerlord and the prince too. Not sure what to do with the csm or zerkers, but there are enough points to add a rhino and the kharybdis is a transport. The list could use a bit more anti horde, so maybe give them a flamer?

Any thoughts?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus can't because they are different detachment, but the relic doesn't say that it's necessary.

NamelessBard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus can't because they are different detachment, but the relic doesn't say that it's necessary.

Neither does Typhus's rule. It says "any Chaos Cultists in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies." His CSM rules were written pre detatchment stuff, and as far as I know, haven't been updated since the codex. Typhus can indeed change the cultists into zombies.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
I like the Deathguard and Alpha Legion combo too.

Take a Vectorium but add a Alpha Legion CAD with a Sorcerer or Lord to a unit of Terminators from the DG detachment. Give that guy a Mindveil and it could really help the movement issues of terminators.

I'd really like to use terminators and I think FNP (reroll 1s) + T5 + ~stealth + movement bonus can really help them become somewhat viable.

Take 2 units (or more) cultists in your AL CAD, and they get infiltrate. Seems like a really good combo to me. And, if you want to take Poxwalker Hive, there is nothing that stops you from using it on the AL cultists.

There doesn't seem to be a rule that stops other legions from joining each other.

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus affects cultists in your army, not detachment, so I don't see how you wouldn't be able to. Hell, technically daemonkin cultists could be turned since they have the mark of khorne built in and you wouldn't be taking any options.

As for the list, since you're going with a CAD, how about changing a unit of chosen into a unit of hades autocannon rapiers?
They are rather flexible as far as potential targets are concerned. Or a vindicator laser destroyer, the rest of the list is rather short ranged after all.

I've always had good results with flamers. A flamer or two never go amiss. I'd put them with the chosen though. the cultists aren't as likely to use them and the chosen get more out of it with their extra attacks in addition to overwatch. Cultists getting charged aren't likely to be in much shape to offer much resistance.

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
I like the Deathguard and Alpha Legion combo too.

Take a Vectorium but add a Alpha Legion CAD with a Sorcerer or Lord to a unit of Terminators from the DG detachment. Give that guy a Mindveil and it could really help the movement issues of terminators.

I'd really like to use terminators and I think FNP (reroll 1s) + T5 + ~stealth + movement bonus can really help them become somewhat viable.

Take 2 units (or more) cultists in your AL CAD, and they get infiltrate. Seems like a really good combo to me. And, if you want to take Poxwalker Hive, there is nothing that stops you from using it on the AL cultists.

There doesn't seem to be a rule that stops other legions from joining each other.

That's why I had my question posted in the thread that never got answered as to whether Typhus can turn them into his Zombies. There would be no upgrades after all, and they could Infiltrate without me having to pay the Ahriman/Huron tax.

Typhus affects cultists in your army, not detachment, so I don't see how you wouldn't be able to. Hell, technically daemonkin cultists could be turned since they have the mark of khorne built in and you wouldn't be taking any options.

As for the list, since you're going with a CAD, how about changing a unit of chosen into a unit of hades autocannon rapiers?
They are rather flexible as far as potential targets are concerned. Or a vindicator laser destroyer, the rest of the list is rather short ranged after all.

I've always had good results with flamers. A flamer or two never go amiss. I'd put them with the chosen though. the cultists aren't as likely to use them and the chosen get more out of it with their extra attacks in addition to overwatch. Cultists getting charged aren't likely to be in much shape to offer much resistance.

I might wait to do that when they might get VotLW because Death Guard would be broke.

However, that's not a bad idea. I'd only have two Chosen Infiltrating. I get nervous...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alright, here's my first go at Alpha Legion + Death Guard. After doing some testing I will be doing Alpha Legion + Codex: Gorepack and see if it yields different results. Anyways...

Detachment: Alpha Legion CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mindveil

x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x7 Chosen
. 3 Plasma Guns, Rhino
x15 Cultists
x15 Cultists

Detachment: Death Guard CAD
x1 Lord
. Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Bike, Mark Of Nurgle, Blight Grenades

x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino
x5 Plague Marines
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Rhino

x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle
x5 Bikers
. 2 Melta Guns, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, Mark Of Nurgle

My general plan would be to Infiltrate the Cultists further than the Chosen, as they're something I don't plan to have at all by T2. At that point, Nurgle will have made his way down there, and both Lords will be in their own unit together, and with Mindveil I can guarantee they're charging every turn for the most part.

My issue? I have 27 points left. I have a couple of options:
1. Borrow Flamer Cultists as everyone has them but doesn't use them.
2. Add a Flamer to each Chosen Squad as a deterrent to charges on top of potentially nasty Overwatch.
3. Give the Plague Marines Plasma Guns instead, as how much Melta could I possibly need?
My other issue is my lack of Heavy Support in terms of range. There's potentially nothing in my backfield. I'm unsure how comfortable I am with that as I've always had some sorta camping unit.

The chosen units are bad. I mean, your paying for 3 plasma guns on a unit in a transport with 2 fire points, so it's safe to assume your hopping out. Top that off with purchasing 2 extra guys for some odd reason and you have a very expensive unit with mediocre damage output. 206 points for a few plamsa guns on none fearless marines? Why even bother with the AL detachment, you chose a CAD. Infiltrate is not that amazing, in 9 out of 10 games it gets you 6" further from your deployment zone. You bought rhinos, so that isn't a very big boon as you have mobility. You could just take a chaos warband from the deathguard detachment and you would be way better off since the chosen would still have obsec but be much more durable and have relentless.

I mean for example lets ignore the horrible loadout on the chosen and just crunch numbers like for like.

7 AL chosen with 3 plasma guns in a rhino comes to 206 pts

compared to 6 death guard chosen with the exact same gear with comes to....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Plasma gun chosen create an interesting problem; chosen with plasma guns are a decent choice in any warband, but it seems a waste of their close combat ability if they can't even charge after shooting, so I'd prefer to go for meltas or flamers. Give plasma guns to the havocs. I suppose that's irrelevant if Death Guard chosen get relentless though

Their close combat ability is having 3 attacks each.

That's a trap in the same way a Guardsman could have two attacks base, but not as extreme in the example I give. Think about their transport options and how likely they're charge anyway. You could Infiltrate without the Rhino, but that's a whole turn out in the open for them to die. They aren't getting their melee weapons as cheaply as Vanguard or Honour Guard do (the latter coming with Bolters they'll use for maybe one turn, if that). The Alpha Legion doesn't have any melee benefits if they want to charge compared to other warbands.

Yeah you would have the option, but it isn't a fantastic one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I tried to do chosen.. but when the point hit the limit, a 5 man marine squad with one special weapon one combi weapon fits a lot easier

That gets even more expensive. A single 5 man with a Plasma and Combi with a Rhino is 135 points. How is that saving any points in the long run?
It is a cheaper initial investment that goes wrong right after you get another one.

thankfully we don't have that issue here, we house ruled charging from vehicles that haven't moved when 7th first hit, all the other restrictions still apply of course.

on the plus side, it means assault armies can actually compete in our tournaments, and everyone Is happy with that, I know it doesn't help here, but I'm just musing

Btw what do you guys think about new DG bikers vs spawns?

Fnp and +1 cover for 18"+ but -1 ini vs just +1 cover for 18"+.
Sounds like the bikes can make a comeback as a potent retinue for indeps. They're still a bit behind on resilience vs shooting in some cases but they're now more resilient than spawns to ap4+ melee. And pack a 3+ cover save in the open vs shots from far away, 2+ with NF. They still don't like grav - especially ignore cover grav but fare better vs poison due to armor+fnp vs just 3 wounds.

But on the bright side, they can wield fist on a champ, which is not terrible with 3 attacks on the charge and a couple meltas/plazmas.

hmm with the WE 2d6 move, how are you guys playing that if they are going though difficult terrain?

 koooaei wrote:
Btw what do you guys think about new DG bikers vs spawns?

Fnp and +1 cover for 18"+ but -1 ini vs just +1 cover for 18"+.
Sounds like the bikes can make a comeback as a potent retinue for indeps. They're still a bit behind on resilience vs shooting in some cases but they're now more resilient than spawns to ap4+ melee. And pack a 3+ cover save in the open vs shots from far away, 2+ with NF. They still don't like grav - especially ignore cover grav but fare better vs poison due to armor+fnp vs just 3 wounds.

But on the bright side, they can wield fist on a champ, which is not terrible with 3 attacks on the charge and a couple meltas/plazmas.

An nurgle biker squad would work pretty good with 2 plasma, a combiplamsa and a fist, add maby 2 or 3 bodies with MoN would make it a nightmare, but a very expensive one

Helldrakes with 3+ jink is pretty cool


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And people have probably already noticed but2+ jink on Prince is very nice indeed.

 koooaei wrote:
Btw what do you guys think about new DG bikers vs spawns?

Fnp and +1 cover for 18"+ but -1 ini vs just +1 cover for 18"+.
Sounds like the bikes can make a comeback as a potent retinue for indeps. They're still a bit behind on resilience vs shooting in some cases but they're now more resilient than spawns to ap4+ melee. And pack a 3+ cover save in the open vs shots from far away, 2+ with NF. They still don't like grav - especially ignore cover grav but fare better vs poison due to armor+fnp vs just 3 wounds.

But on the bright side, they can wield fist on a champ, which is not terrible with 3 attacks on the charge and a couple meltas/plazmas.

Usually I took a unit of both already before the update. So far spawns didn't really impress me and if they don't profit from DG rules they might fall behind even more.

I was thinking of Combining the Warpsmith+Mutilator/Obliterator formation with the "Mindveil" Relic

As the Special Formation Ability grants Mutilators to attack with 2 different weapons in a turn and allows the Mutilators to Attack with I4 Chainfists (as the Rule States, Resolve the First set of attacks (Pick Power Swords for this) and then Immediately Resolve the Second set of attacks (Pick Power Fists/Chainfists for this one))

So Mutilators that Charge your units, Deal HEAVY Damage, Disengage and Charge the Same Unit, Or a Different one, EVERY TURN

(Unless the Warpsmith Cannot join Mutilators)

Did i miss something or dp can now forego 3+ armor and save 20 pts?

 koooaei wrote:
Did i miss something or dp can now forego 3+ armor and save 20 pts?

Princes have always had to buy their Power Armor (or now, Relic Armor).