Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Power fists for the deathguard all the way. As for the EC, it's hard to tell. i5 is quite tasty but this 1 attack even if you get killed mitigates the ini drop somewhat. Quite expensive though.

But that one time your 50 pt model takes a 200 point model with it as it dies and turns into a 250 point model afterwards I mean at least mark of slaanesh with unwieldy weapons isnt a complete waste anymore. There is that.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Stick it on an alpha rhino and it can infiltrate. Still gonna blow up, but you never know.

Er what? Are you confusing the Helforged Warpack with the Fist of the Gods formation? Helforged Warpack allows you to choose an alpha unit, but it doesn't get infiltrate. Fist of the Gods doesn't even allow you to bring Rhinos. Where are you making an alpha rhino?

Pretty sure he was talking about an Alpha Legion rhino and not an "alpha" from the Helforged Warpack. Also, wouldn't be too had to grab that - an allied Alpha Legion detachment with a Chosen/CSM squad infiltrating with their rhino. You could even toss a Mindveil on the Alpha Legion HQ and have him join a 'zerker unit later to assist in getting out of fights/charging every turn.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

According to 1d4chan that legacy of ruin is meant to be used on those with the Icon of Vengeance. Apparently Forgeworld confirmed via email that it was a typo and should be for the unmarked icon. Makes sense given that Khorne was the only god that got two legacies and unmarked got none in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andysonic1 wrote:
My main idea was to bring the legacy into a Butcherhorde + Maelstrom of Gore, so the main carriers would have to be either a Rhino, a Land Raider, a Pred, or a Helbrute. I'm realizing that allying in a CAD or Allied Detachment just for a sturdier unit to carry the legacy is a huge point sink, like several hundred, compared to the 75 point sink for the Rhino + Legacy (this is disregarding the 60 points for the icons on the four units of zerkers). Yes, the thing is probably doomed, but 135 points for even one turn of FnP on 10x4 units of zerkers seems worth the price. The enemy has to make the choice between shooting at the charging mob or shooting the Rhino, which takes some fire from the mob at least temporarily. Pop smoke and cross your fingers!

A good detachment to take for this would be a Purge detachment with a 1 HQ 2 Elite min requirement. You'd want this legacy on a walker (i.e. a contemptor) anyway.

Demantiae wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

According to 1d4chan that legacy of ruin is meant to be used on those with the Icon of Vengeance. Apparently Forgeworld confirmed via email that it was a typo and should be for the unmarked icon. Makes sense given that Khorne was the only god that got two legacies and unmarked got none in the book.

That would be awesome if it were like that. I scoured quickly through the FW material and couldn't find any mention.

On the other hand I started lawyering the supplement, and it seems to allow some weird combos.

For example some of the legion specific detachments are implied to be be legion specific/exclusive. This however is not clearly stated in the book. Let me demonstrate: Night Lords Legion Insurgency Force. Insurgency force is the Alpha Legion detachment. Now all the VotLW units gain Night Lords bonuses, and then the whole detachment has the Shrouded on 1st turn. Of course you won't get re-roll on WT, but you can get this anyway by doing CAD with whichever legion you want.
You could fill up your Fast Attack with bikers (2+ Jink 1st turn, 3+ later on). Then compulsory Helbrute could be stuffed into dreadclaw and you have 2+ Jinking Helbruteclaw + 15-20 bikers boosting at the enemy. Then behind you have swarm of cultists which come back on 4+/4+, maybe twice, if you have lost and the damned as aux and why wouldn't you.

What do you think, is this even legal?

... I wouldn't recommend.

The nocturnal warfare rule also references night lords. And the full name of the formation is the Night Lords Murder Talon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've read that backwards, but still.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
... I wouldn't recommend.

The nocturnal warfare rule also references night lords. And the full name of the formation is the Night Lords Murder Talon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've read that backwards, but still.

It is never mentioned in the restrictions that the detachment must be nominated as Night Lords. You just have a detachment which name is either Night Lords Murder Talon, Murder Talon or Sons of Curze (supplement uses there 3 terms when referring to the detachment).

Then each specific legion has rules along the line that any detachment can be nominated as [Legion] if they follow certain guidelines. Now if I pick the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force detachment to be Night Lords, I'm actually following the guidelines given in the supplement.

Ghorgul wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
... I wouldn't recommend.

The nocturnal warfare rule also references night lords. And the full name of the formation is the Night Lords Murder Talon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've read that backwards, but still.

It is never mentioned in the restrictions that the detachment must be nominated as Night Lords. You just have a detachment which name is either Night Lords Murder Talon, Murder Talon or Sons of Curze (supplement uses there 3 terms when referring to the detachment).

Then each specific legion has rules along the line that any detachment can be nominated as [Legion] if they follow certain guidelines. Now if I pick the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force detachment to be Night Lords, I'm actually following the guidelines given in the supplement.

if this is true that is disgusting. Infiltrating death guard?

 -v10mega wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
... I wouldn't recommend.

The nocturnal warfare rule also references night lords. And the full name of the formation is the Night Lords Murder Talon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've read that backwards, but still.

It is never mentioned in the restrictions that the detachment must be nominated as Night Lords. You just have a detachment which name is either Night Lords Murder Talon, Murder Talon or Sons of Curze (supplement uses there 3 terms when referring to the detachment).

Then each specific legion has rules along the line that any detachment can be nominated as [Legion] if they follow certain guidelines. Now if I pick the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force detachment to be Night Lords, I'm actually following the guidelines given in the supplement.

if this is true that is disgusting. Infiltrating death guard?

This is all a stretch.

Every decurion has a blurb at the top of the page.
" X detachments are used exclusively by the *insert legion*. The rules below... "

But unlike the black legion only formations, the decurions don't have the restriction spelled out that says they are a legion detachment. So RAW they're not really limited to the their legions, it's really just heavily implied.
They really should say:" A butcher horde detachment must be from the world eaters" or something to that extent. I sure would love me some Black Legion butcherhorde, but I doubt you'll find a lot of players allowing cross legion detachments other than in friendly or narrative games.

What does Traitor's Hate have that Traitor Legions doesn't have ?

 godardc wrote:
What does Traitor's Hate have that Traitor Legions doesn't have ?

The Black Crusade Detachment and rules for the Renegade Knight.

And a passable story, with some highlights from Kharn.

 godardc wrote:
What does Traitor's Hate have that Traitor Legions doesn't have ?

Renegade knights and the black crusade detachment.
The latter gives you free VotLW and hatred(armies of the imperium). It also gives you one free boon per turn (or two for the warbands).
The crusade is more or less identical to the legion detachments but you also get a lost and the damned as core.

so it's mostly for Crimson Slaughter or alpha legion. CS or generic CSM would also allow you to use all the characters and there is an auxiliary with cult troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Random thought. Would there be any benefit in taking the new inquisitor detachments for warlord traits? Spamming on strategic traits since those don't care about factions.
The night lords relic for - reserves plus divide to conquer could be nasty, but they're all good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What's the verdict on the Black Legion warband?
Armywide hatred(everything) and preferred enemy(everything) is a pretty potent combination on paper.
In addition you could termicide turn 1. Crusader would also help to destroy a unit during the combat phase to get the buff there.
It would also combo with the raptor talon...in theory.

Against msu and light transports it could be good, against other stuff you'd need a pretty big warband to come even close to everything being ObSec.
You're also limited by range. The only long range in the warband would be from the havocs.
Termicide would only hit once and chosen or marines would need a claw to get close enough for turn 1. I suppose you could start them in rhinos, but then you're stuck with plasma.

I feel like the buffs themselves aren't bad but we'd still need an update to our base units/codex for it to be an alternative to ObSec. Not to mention that the detachment almost requires a TAF or raptor talon due the deepstrike bonus, so you can only spend that many points on the warband.
Of course, the hounds of Abaddon have issues of their own and that's their only other core.

Which legion in your opinions benefits terminators the most. Black legion for better chance of early DS, possible prefered enemy, and hatred, or death guard with FNP, +1 T and semi-stealth, or world eaters with reroll charges and all the melee USRs? Or maybe another. Curious.

BL can run the best MSU termie list with a CAD. 6x3 obsec Termies with combi-meltas. They can be very annoying if spread out all over the board to contest objs. This gives Armies that doesn't have high volume of shooting a lot of issues.

Run that with a IW CAD with 5-6 sinlge obliterators as troops for some lulzz

Danny slag wrote:
Which legion in your opinions benefits terminators the most. Black legion for better chance of early DS, possible preffered enemy, and hatred, or death guard with FNP, +1 T and semi-stealth, or world eaters with reroll charges and all the melee USRs? Or maybe another. Curious.

Deathguard by a country mile. For a mark of nurgle (so T5) they are fearless, feel no pain and Objective Secured. So they're quite likely to stick around on that objective long enough to deny it to your opponent.
But it's more than that even. The nurgle discipline got soooooooo much better imho, everything is good. You have no reason not to use p-axes now on DG termies and blades of putrefaction gives them re-roll to wound more often than not.
Leper curse gives them S6 with axes putting them at the same strength a WE unit would have with furious charge, except these guys are then T6! So they punch as hard as WE but are much much tougher in that case. And if you're taking a TAF with a warband, you can stick that sorcerer with one of the Objective secured termies. Only he gets to fire twice but at this point who cares.

BL termies make for a slightly nastier alphastrike, especially with the dicegods in your favour, but after that they are normal terminators (without obsec)
You can give them obsec, but then they loose pseudo preferred enemy and come on like every other terminator.

Oh lawd speaking of DG did anyone notice the nerf to daemon princes:

'Units that have the Veterans of the Long War special rule have the Fearless and Feel No Pain special rules, but reduce their Initiative characteristic by 1. Typhus and units of Plague Marines are unaffected'

Daemon princes have the VOTLW special rule.... that means deatguard daemon princes just got their I dropped from 8 to 7!!!!

booooooooo

XD

lol. On a different topic, Black Legion are the only legion to have access to the new TSons units other than TSons themselves.. Which means BL is the only legion with access to divination, albeit in a CAD. I can't really think of any good combo with those units mind you. Hatred doesn't do much for those units and they still can't use them in their speartip. Only benefit I can think of is to gain access to divination slightly cheaper than other legions due to do not needing a second CAD (and not needing tzeentch cultists). At the same time though, the black legion warband already gives them a weaker prescience but for free, so getting prescience isn't as important. Plus seer'S bane woudl be the biggest reason to bring an exalted sorcerer, but a BL exalted sorcerer doesn't get that.

Black legion is the only one that can take the cabal right? The other decurions don't have the cabal in their HQ options.

Yes, but it'S pretty easy to incorporate it, since marks are entirely optional and it's a formation that can be taken standalone.

Considering a BL list based on the warband (with maelstrom in mind):

1 Black Legion Warband formation (Core)

x1 Chaos Lord
WITH: Sigil, MoK, Juggernaut, AoBF, VotLW

x6 Bikers
WITH: x2 melta, VotLW

x5 Chosen
WITH: x5 Plasma gun (1 on champ), VotLW, Rhino

x5 Chosen
WITH: x5 Plasma gun (1 on champ), VotLW, Rhino

x5 Havocs
WITH: x4 Autocannon , VotLW

x5 Havocs
WITH: x4 Autocannon , VotLW

x4 Terminators
WITH: x4 combi-Melta, VotLW

______________________________

1 Black Legion Raptor Talon formation (Aux)

x1 Chaos Lord
WITH: Sigil, Jump pack, Lightning Claw, VotLW

x5 Raptors
WITH: x2 melta, VotLW

x5 Raptors
WITH: x2 melta, VotLW

x5 Raptors
WITH: VotLW

This gives me 314 points to work with. Ideally I would like add a psyker of some kind to cover my bases on tactical objectives.

If possible, the chosen disembark and shoot at something, either before or after moving their rhino. The lord + bikes move up while the rest of the army deepstrikes in.
The raptor talons should take the heat off of the lord and chosen as they lock units into CC and the terminators try their best to pop a vehicle. And the havocs sit on an objective, shooting at whatever.

The Black Legion objectives and rules require you to be a jack-of-all-trades, so this army would try to capitalize on that.
You've got preferred enemy on the warband after killing a unit in the shooting phase and you have quite a bit of that in T1, you have hatred armywide for melee which the raptors can benefit from T1 and ideally some sorcerers to benefit from the objectives as well.

Except right now the list is short on bodies and psykers. I was thinking of either adding a lvl 3 sorc (to the warband) and some bodies, or, 314 is enough to squeeze in a cabal. Even with just 3 warpcharges you 'd still be able to cast the deceit if you keep them close as it's almost a free cast. In that case I'd probably swap some bikers to buy bikes for the cabal and join them with the juggerlord. On the other hand, that's almost enough to add another TAF. I'd need to drop a unit in the warband or some bikes but it should fit.

Or add something else entirely, It's enough points to add in a CAD from any legion after all.
What do you think?

I don't yet have the book, but I've been thinking about Alpha Legion, wanting a legion that would be low in model count. What I planned was basically a CAD with the troops being min squads of Chosen with special weapons in rhinos. Thoughts on this? I realize there's a give and take of missing out on some rules, but I just don't want a horde army of cultists in any way, and I want to keep the model-count down. Would another legion be better suited for multiple small squads?

Jacksmiles wrote:
I don't yet have the book, but I've been thinking about Alpha Legion, wanting a legion that would be low in model count. What I planned was basically a CAD with the troops being min squads of Chosen with special weapons in rhinos. Thoughts on this? I realize there's a give and take of missing out on some rules, but I just don't want a horde army of cultists in any way, and I want to keep the model-count down. Would another legion be better suited for multiple small squads?

If you want to run low model count, you want those models to be hard to kill, which means Death Guard or some sort of death star.

Danny slag wrote:
Which legion in your opinions benefits terminators the most. Black legion for better chance of early DS, possible prefered enemy, and hatred, or death guard with FNP, +1 T and semi-stealth, or world eaters with reroll charges and all the melee USRs? Or maybe another. Curious.

I hate to keep repeating myself but Deathguard. The black legion can take the terminators as troops sure, but if you want early deepstrike then you need to take their detachment, at which point they lose obsec anyway, meanwhile deathguard can take the same number of terminator units, but keep obsec.

I cannot believe they didn't give the black legion the chaos warband as an option. The black legion warband is so damned awful by comparison.

Please note that every legion except T-Sons and BL have access to the CWB meaning things like raptors, chosen or termi troops are basically a thing to everyone. In that regard, the unmarked legion that has the most flexibility is probably Iron Warriors since they have more of a reason to take a CAD and unlock oblits as troops.

Ugh that fething Black Legion Warband.... SOOOOOOO STUPID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I don't yet have the book, but I've been thinking about Alpha Legion, wanting a legion that would be low in model count. What I planned was basically a CAD with the troops being min squads of Chosen with special weapons in rhinos. Thoughts on this? I realize there's a give and take of missing out on some rules, but I just don't want a horde army of cultists in any way, and I want to keep the model-count down. Would another legion be better suited for multiple small squads?

If you want to run low model count, you want those models to be hard to kill, which means Death Guard or some sort of death star.

Sadly if you want to do anything better play death guard, don't forget the fethers do horde best due to zambies as well. Drives me batty since I am so fatigues by the last few editions where literally everyone played death guard to some degree.

Thing is, the BL Warband works ok for casual games and is fluffy, but praying you get a good first turn or you'll lose isn't much of a competitive strategy.

I guess Iron Warriors can do small and elite decently, if you CAD and spam ObSec Deep Striking Oblits.

I realky liked the idea from sonsofvulkan=).

So i tried to make a decent list with my available models^^.

BL CAD
DP of nurgle with wings, armour and mace
3x3 termis ( i only have 3 meltas and 2 flamers).
Low
Renegade knigth with battlecanon and reaper sword
IW CAD
DP of tzeentch with wings and fleshmetal armour
6x1 oblits

Dont know how many points this list is, maybe something around 1600 points?

Thought about adding the omniscient oracles or helldrakes.

What would you add to this list, sticking to the theme (want to keep my dps + at least 2x3 termis and my oblits)? Want to make it somehow decent, to play some tournaments and don' t get instant wiped=).

Hope this can be good and you guys can help me a bit^^.

Been writing some lists tonight for my older armies and lots can be done still with the CaD and picking a legion to grab some rules.

The decurion(s) do offer some good stuff but i'm finding it quite liberating to just ignore them and fit in some more juicy unit options the cad brings.

Like i just took one of my armies and nurgled it up a bit:
Got helbrute mayhem pack in there, fire raptor but now the marines are like plague marines with charging when firing their bolters

made the barebones sorcerer i have i gave pox hive so blob of cultists are now a lot harder to move

The unit of obilts I have gets FnP.

Kept all the good toys and other stuff got better.


e.g. here is the list before:
Kharn 160
Plasma pistol, Frag, Krak Aura, Gorechild

10 Chaos Space Marines 195
Bolters, Frag, Krak, 2x Meltaguns
Champ, Power fist, Vets of long war

Rhino 35
1x Combi-bolter, Smoke, Lights

10 Chaos Space Marines 195
Bolters, Frag, Krak, 2x Meltaguns
Champ, Power fist, Vets of long war

Rhino 35
1x Combi-bolter, Smoke, Lights

15 Chaos Cultists 72
CCW, Pistols, Shotgun

15 Chaos Cultists 70
CCW, Pistols

3x Obilterators 237
MoN, Vets of long war

Fire Raptor Gunship 235
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Autocannon Battery
4x Balefire Missiles, Extra Armour

3x Laser Destroyer Rapiers 165
6x Marines, 3x Laser Destroyers

5 Spawn 150

Mayhem Pack Formation
Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist

Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist

Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist


NOW:


Sorcerer 110
MoN, Lvl1, Poxhive, Frag, Krak, Bolt Pistol
Aura, Vets of long war

10 Chaos Space Marines 215
Bolters, Frag, Krak, 2x Meltaguns, MoN
Champ, Power fist, Vets of long war

Rhino 35
1x Combi-bolter, Smoke, Lights

10 Chaos Space Marines 215
Bolters, Frag, Krak, 2x Meltaguns, MoN
Champ, Power fist, Vets of long war

Rhino 35
1x Combi-bolter, Smoke, Lights

5 Spawn 180
MoN

20 Chaos Cultists 130
Auto Pistols, CCWs, MoN

3x Obilterators 228
MoN, Vets of long war

Fire Raptor Gunship 235
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Autocannon Battery
4x Balefire Missiles, Extra Armour

3x Laser Destroyer Rapiers 165
6x Marines, 3x Laser Destroyers

Mayhem Pack Formation
Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist

Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist

Helbrute 100
Multi-melta, Power fist


Its not hyper competitive but its an army i like with models i painted that i love. The marines are now a really real threat as opposed to literally a pts sink to hobby love. Kinda just an example that CaD is still good with this legions book, don't feel too restricted by the decurions because the freedom to take the actual units you want can maybe with the extra legion rules prove 'better' than the extra decurion buffs

So DG Warband or DG Plague Colony. I'm not very interested in being forced to take fast attack.

Ive been weighing up the pros and cons of the BL hounds of abaddon core vs the WE warband core.
My army is based around khorne marked marines and I could go for either, but I do like sorcerers.


Hounds of Abbaddon.
Pros
Free MoK (can add up).
Move and run, one turn only.
Can take bezerkers.
Only 4 compulsory units.
Turn 1 deep strike across army.
Can take sorcerors in same detachment.
Extra strength on charge roll of 8.
Access to eternal warrior (at highcost)
Eternal hatred IoM
Fear and crusader.
Abaddon
Free choice of marks on other units in detachment (e.g nurgle spawn)

Cons
No free fearless.(Can get with Lord or icon of vengeance)
Pay to get furious charge/rerolls to charge through icon of wrath.
Have to take bezerkers.
Mostly uninspired artefacts.


World Eaters Butherhorde warband.
Pros
Bonus movement at deployment.
Free fearless, furious charge and adamantium will.
Talisman of burning blood is very good. Other artefacts decent.
Free re-roll charge.
(Basically, don't need to buy icon of wrath, saving points.)
Khaaarrrnnn

Cons
No sorcerors.
Bonus movement doesn't work embarked or with allies joined.
Six compulsory units.
Pay for MoK on everything in detachment .

saruon wrote:
So DG Warband or DG Plague Colony. I'm not very interested in being forced to take fast attack.

I am stuck with this dilemma as well.