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Are the Word Bearers really bad ? I agree Crusader isn't a wonderful rule, but they have others things.

So we get possessed as troops, and if we bunch several squads together around footslogging HQ we get zealot. Carnifexes and haruspexes, beware of our mighty s5 ap3 re-rollable attacks!

3+ conjuration and some warlord traits and relics are nice, though they aren't free FnP reducing incoming damage by a third.

BrianDavion wrote:

pepsuber wrote:
I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance

sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced

CSMs have IA:13 and the Rapier Weapons Battery. An army of Iron Warriors can field a CAD that allows them to take up to 9 Laser Destroyers which are like twin-linked Lascannons with Ordinance that now rerolls. This would be better than the Defiler and any fortification by a mile.

I haven't gone back to look at tanks, but I imagine there is some Vindicator-type thing in there that would be truly awful to face as part of an Iron Warriors force.

 techsoldaten wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pepsuber wrote:
I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance

sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced

CSMs have IA:13 and the Rapier Weapons Battery. An army of Iron Warriors can field a CAD that allows them to take up to 9 Laser Destroyers which are like twin-linked Lascannons with Ordinance that now rerolls. This would be better than the Defiler and any fortification by a mile.

I haven't gone back to look at tanks, but I imagine there is some Vindicator-type thing in there that would be truly awful to face as part of an Iron Warriors force.

What rerolls do they get if they are already twin-linked ordnance?

Except the IW's Ordnance Bonus is only for their Meta Detachment, which can't have stuff from IA13 in it.

Even then, the bonus is that Ordance and Barrage weapons can re-roll scatter, so even if you could take Rapier Laser Destroyers in the Detachment they'd get absolutely 0 benefit as they don't roll for scatter and are inherently Twin-Linked to begin with.

 koooaei wrote:
Emp children can field a decurion of noize marines in a 750 game like no big deal. Will get 3 rhinos and some spawns for lord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, can you confirm that havoc launcher is s5 now? Does it still cost 12 pts?

That same Emperor's Children Decurion can upgrade with IoE and Sonic Blasters for under 1000 points for 4+ FnP and +1 S shots. It's vicious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Except the IW's Ordnance Bonus is only for their Meta Detachment, which can't have stuff from IA13 in it.

Even then, the bonus is that Ordance and Barrage weapons can re-roll scatter, so even if you could take Rapier Laser Destroyers in the Detachment they'd get absolutely 0 benefit as they don't roll for scatter and are inherently Twin-Linked to begin with.

Yeah... look at me flubbing the rules. It's still the best ordinance option for IW even if it's taken as part of an allied CAD. 9 of these things would annihilate most armies.

Thinking about it, any CSM army could take them as an allied formation. You could have Word Bearers outshooting Iron Warriors, for example.

Iron warriors are amazing allies with scoring 6+++ oblits.

So, can anyone confirm the nerf of a havok launcher?

 koooaei wrote:
Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.

You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.

Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.

You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.

Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.

Yep, i kinda failed 50% 2+ saves i had to make in this game. Don't know about ts termies. They'll end up more expensive and like twice less choppy. The rest of the list will be slower and weaker and you'll have to only rely on magic to get 1-st turn charges whereas khorne termies can do it on an average blood crazed move. Also, 3++ is less of an issue when you have wizards - just didn't use them in a game. Ideally, 2-3 sorcs would solve any durability issues. Also, khornate re-roll charge ranges which is very helpful.

Hard to say without playtesting yet. Grimoire is almost as good as a talisman of burning blood. And Tzeench dudes sure do have easier access to mages. I've seen a list containing nothing but 1200 pt of sorcs and the rest filled with cultists and spawns work in a competitive enviroment quite well. So, i won't pass any judgement about magic armies beforehand.

I want to mix khorne and nurgle sorcerers. The urgle discipline is amazing for khorne. The high strength works wonders with poiseoned and curse of leper gives them much needed durablity while often buffing their attacks into ID territory and d3 wounds for a juggerlord is sweet too.

Even gift of contagion is nice, since every roll debuffs in melee and helps your khorne units survive or ID

I've also thought about bringing in DG to act as a second wave to my WE's first turn charges, but I'm hesitant. It doesn't cost too much to get a sorcerer with cultists in an allied detachment added in. The only thing stopping me is, A) PSYKERS RRREEEEEE, and B) the urge to fill rhinos with plague marines which then leads to the urge to take a death guard detachment which leads to dark, point sinking places of doom. I have a personal grudge against the idea of taking things just to boost other things without them being able to stand on their own, so if I did take DG they would need to be significant / fluffy.

I feel like from a fluff perspective it's pretty easy to justify WE's rampaging through the enemy at high speeds while DG follow behind enjoying the dead bodies and rotting everything in their path. Now you've got me all hot and bothered about how cool it would be.


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NOW I'M LOOKING AT A "THE PURGE" DETACHMENT AND MY LIST EXPLODED IN POINTS LOOK WHAT YOU DID ROKNAR!

:3 I was thinking about a cabal though lol. The only option you have there is to add more sorcerers

 koooaei wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.

You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.

Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.

Yep, i kinda failed 50% 2+ saves i had to make in this game. Don't know about ts termies. They'll end up more expensive and like twice less choppy. The rest of the list will be slower and weaker and you'll have to only rely on magic to get 1-st turn charges whereas khorne termies can do it on an average blood crazed move. Also, 3++ is less of an issue when you have wizards - just didn't use them in a game. Ideally, 2-3 sorcs would solve any durability issues. Also, khornate re-roll charge ranges which is very helpful.

Hard to say without playtesting yet. Grimoire is almost as good as a talisman of burning blood. And Tzeench dudes sure do have easier access to mages. I've seen a list containing nothing but 1200 pt of sorcs and the rest filled with cultists and spawns work in a competitive enviroment quite well. So, i won't pass any judgement about magic armies beforehand.

Well MoT is only 2 pts more than MoK. If I give a 8 men termie squad 5 CF/PF and 8 combi-meltas and cast prescience, most things will die regardless of the chaos faction and so with rage is like overkill. And also a guy with Seer bane will kill a WK easily.

Once you get first turn charge and kill whatever unit, your deathstar dies to mass grav and etc next turn. And I just prefer 12" moves over terrain and models much over than a 9" footslog move.

I realize that the black legion formations are only available to the black legion decurion as auxiliary choices. I have heard most people agreeing that one can, for example, take the cabal as a standalone formation and declare whichever traitor legion rules to apply to it providing restrictions are met. There is no way, for example, to give a Death Guard cabal reroll 1's for FnP because that benefit can only be gained by models within the decurion. Am I understanding this correctly?

By the same token, could one use the Hounds of Abaddon formation as one's primary detachment and declare it to be a World Eater's detachment, thereby gaining free MoK on all units and free VotLW and associated perks on said units as well? Sure, the Red Rain or whatever isn't as good as the World Eater's blood-crazed scout move, but only paying 13 points per model for rage, counterattack, fearless, furious charge, adamantium will on top of formation benefits (faux furious charge again on charge distances of 8+) seems like quite a bargain. Berzerker unit is a tax, but having to take a few bikers or raptors isn't really much to complain about.

Can bikers use the red rain run + assault move with their turboboost?

Don't forget that a juggerlord can boost thismovement to 15". And it's basically 2d6 + 9-15 depending on positioning + re-rollable charge with extra 3". That's very fast.

Also, i was using mindveil. It's not stable but should give an average of 8-12 + 3"

 Roghrax wrote:
I realize that the black legion formations are only available to the black legion decurion as auxiliary choices. I have heard most people agreeing that one can, for example, take the cabal as a standalone formation and declare whichever traitor legion rules to apply to it providing restrictions are met. There is no way, for example, to give a Death Guard cabal reroll 1's for FnP because that benefit can only be gained by models within the decurion. Am I understanding this correctly?

By the same token, could one use the Hounds of Abaddon formation as one's primary detachment and declare it to be a World Eater's detachment, thereby gaining free MoK on all units and free VotLW and associated perks on said units as well? Sure, the Red Rain or whatever isn't as good as the World Eater's blood-crazed scout move, but only paying 13 points per model for rage, counterattack, fearless, furious charge, adamantium will on top of formation benefits (faux furious charge again on charge distances of 8+) seems like quite a bargain. Berzerker unit is a tax, but having to take a few bikers or raptors isn't really much to complain about.

Can bikers use the red rain run + assault move with their turboboost?

If the formation says "This is a Black Legion detachment," you can only use it as Black Legion. There is no such thing as a Death Guard Cyclopia Cabal (barring house rules which typically won't apply).

Turboboosting isn't running and things that apply to running do not apply to boosting.

 Roghrax wrote:
I realize that the black legion formations are only available to the black legion decurion as auxiliary choices. I have heard most people agreeing that one can, for example, take the cabal as a standalone formation and declare whichever traitor legion rules to apply to it providing restrictions are met. There is no way, for example, to give a Death Guard cabal reroll 1's for FnP because that benefit can only be gained by models within the decurion. Am I understanding this correctly?

By the same token, could one use the Hounds of Abaddon formation as one's primary detachment and declare it to be a World Eater's detachment, thereby gaining free MoK on all units and free VotLW and associated perks on said units as well? Sure, the Red Rain or whatever isn't as good as the World Eater's blood-crazed scout move, but only paying 13 points per model for rage, counterattack, fearless, furious charge, adamantium will on top of formation benefits (faux furious charge again on charge distances of 8+) seems like quite a bargain. Berzerker unit is a tax, but having to take a few bikers or raptors isn't really much to complain about.

Can bikers use the red rain run + assault move with their turboboost?

Both of those Formations are Black Legion only, so they can't gain the benefits of any other Legion. If you take a Cabal Formation along with your Death Guard marines, all you get is a cadre of Death Guard with their fancy rules, and then a couple of Black Legion Sorcerers with their own respective Black Legion rules. The Cabal does not become Death Guard.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Both of those Formations are Black Legion only, so they can't gain the benefits of any other Legion. If you take a Cabal Formation along with your Death Guard marines, all you get is a cadre of Death Guard with their fancy rules, and then a couple of Black Legion Sorcerers with their own respective Black Legion rules. The Cabal does not become Death Guard.

Thank you! I hope there isn't a similar restriction applied to the Crimson Slaughter formations? I assume those are still fair game for legion rules?

 Roghrax wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Both of those Formations are Black Legion only, so they can't gain the benefits of any other Legion. If you take a Cabal Formation along with your Death Guard marines, all you get is a cadre of Death Guard with their fancy rules, and then a couple of Black Legion Sorcerers with their own respective Black Legion rules. The Cabal does not become Death Guard.

Thank you! I hope there isn't a similar restriction applied to the Crimson Slaughter formations? I assume those are still fair game for legion rules?

I think the Legion book requires that all units outside of the Legions book are coming from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and nothing else. I don't have the book, but I think Crimson Slaughter formations are Crimson Slaughter only.

Yes and no, crimson slaughter can't have units with Veterans of the long war and all the legions require that units that can take it, must do so. Plus the benefits generally only apply to units with the VotLW special rule, so there is very little if anything to gain fro Crimson slaughter from the legions book. Bar the psychic powers of course.

Isn't that amazing? At first Crimson SLAUGHTER was better than everyone else, and suddenly this book comes out and makes them useless. Even Iron Warriors got their own Daemonheart!

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.

You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.

Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.

Where is the rerollable 3++ coming from?

I have been out of the loop for a bit.

 kronk wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.

You must rolled a crap load of 1s when hit by the BC.

Wouldn't a TS Termie death star be better with Astral grim and seer bane? 12" move, reliable 3++, and a guy that kills any MC/GMC and ID almost every infantry model in the game.

Where is the rerollable 3++ coming from?

I have been out of the loop for a bit.

Its reliable as in automatic 3++ with a single blessing. I plan to bring a cyclopia cabal to fish for warp fate to get the re-roll saves tho.

Ah, reliable! I read that as rerollable!

Sorry, I have a cold.

Played my World Eaters against a Gray Knights list. He had something like four units of purifiers, one termie unit in a land raider, two razorbacks, and two dreadknights. I had a butcherhorde with a warband with 2 havoc 4 autocannons units, min CSM with meltas, min termies, and 3 bike units with meltas. Kharn and talisman lord in unit of spawn, juggerlord with AoBF in one unit of bikes, deamon prince glaive.

Everything was going fine, until top of turn two when he cleansing flamed two units of bikers and my deamon prince off the board, then proceeded to shoot my juggerlord to death (who actually died to soul blaze at the start of my turn two). He also cleansing flamed my spawn off the table because I forgot kharns 2+ deny the witch, but with the other loses the game was over. I killed two units of purifiers and he killed 80% of my army, I conceded bottom of turn two. His shooting did nothing but his Cleansing Flame completely wrecked my gak.

I balk at the idea of being forced to take psykers in order to actually make World Eaters work, you know cause psykers rrrreeeee. Still I need something to deal with the Cleansing Flame as that is his ace in the hole and easily won him the game.

You need shooting. Purifiers are just expensive marines.

You could take a Allied Detachment of Daemons with Karanak to create a 12" bubble of Perils on Double for enemy psykers. You won't be able to get all their Psykers with it, but you can at least make it more risky for some of them.

That's the main defence that's still to the theme that I can think of, besides a small Word Bearers contingent with the Scrolls of Erebus to try and get that few extra Warp Charges to deny with using your Adamantium Will.


Or as koooaei said, take some big guns to kill them at range before they can hurt you.

 koooaei wrote:
You need shooting. Purifiers are just expensive marines.

I had two units of havocs with 4 autocannons each. The people casting Cleansing Flame were in Razorbacks and a Land Raider, and it was Turn Two. I had focused my havoc fire on the dreadknights, which seemed like a good idea since the Razorbacks were out of range and the Land Raider was invis. I had all my units in the mid field at bottom of turn one, and top of turn two he just rolled the vehicles up and nova'd. The only defense I can imagine against this would be the Oblit formation, roll them up mid-field, and double tap them on one of the vehicles with the warpsmith. Other than that it's what, more havocs? Ignore the dreadknights and focus on the tanks and Purifiers?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You could take a Allied Detachment of Daemons with Karanak to create a 12" bubble of Perils on Double for enemy psykers. You won't be able to get all their Psykers with it, but you can at least make it more risky for some of them.

That's the main defence that's still to the theme that I can think of, besides a small Word Bearers contingent with the Scrolls of Erebus to try and get that few extra Warp Charges to deny with using your Adamantium Will.


Or as koooaei said, take some big guns to kill them at range before they can hurt you.

Karanak would be a nice deterrent, leading one side of the board while Kharn is on the other. I have a ton of Flesh Hounds collecting dust since I stopped playing KDK anyways, could make a nice threat. The problem is fitting them in with a sizable Chaos Warband + Spawn Escorts + Juggerlords + Deamon Prince. There never seems like enough points in 1850 to work it all in.

iirc they can't nova out of vehicles now - got to get out. So, lure them in with a couple sacrificial units and than finish them off. Also, does kharn get auto-deny now? 2+ and adamantium will?

Even w/o adwill you could deny 1-2 novas by simply sticking kharn a bit forward and remembering kharn's 2+ deny the witches.

 koooaei wrote:
iirc they can't nova out of vehicles now - got to get out. So, lure them in with a couple sacrificial units and than finish them off. Also, does kharn get auto-deny now? 2+ and adamantium will?

Even w/o adwill you could deny 1-2 novas by simply sticking kharn a bit forward and remembering kharn's 2+ deny the witches.

HEAD DESK

I love my roommate to death but he doesn't know the rules to his army very well, this is the second time something like this has happened. He was casting invis and novas and goin' nuts from inside those vehicles in that game so I'll be glad to let him know it was all illegal.

I looked at the rules and around the interwebs, and it looks like there's nothing stopping Kharn's unit getting 1+ deny the witch except that you still need the correct number of warp dice to deny. This can be a problem in an army with no psykers.