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I wrote a Death Guard list, which I believe has the tools to be competitive. Very little fat (figuratively speaking. This *is* Nurgle we're talking about!) it's mostly murder.

++Death Guard CAD++
Sorcerer on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, and Spell Familiar - 180 [Warlord]

16 Cultists of Nurgle - 106
16 Cultists of Nurgle - 106

Sicaran w/ Heavy Bolters and Dozer Blade - 160
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 130
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 130
Void Shield Generator - 100

++Death Guard Purge Detachment++
Sorcerer on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, and Spell Familiar - 180
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Sicaran w/ Heavy Bolters and Dozer Blade - 160
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 130

++Heralds Anarchic++
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95

Total: 1850

Havocs and the Sicarans are self-explanatory.

Sorcerers join the Cultists and make them Fearless. They get Summon and Shriek.
Heralds are "solo" Landspeeder-equivalents. They roll on Lore of Change to fish for summoning Chariots or throwing the D. They took Exalted Locus instead of ML 2, because S6 >> S5, especially for hunting Rhinos.

The list gets 12 WC base. Add the bonus D6 Warp Charge, and it's enough for each Herald to get Flickerfire on 3 dice and the Sorcerers to Shriek on 2, or for two summons on 5 dice while absorbing WC loss from Perils.

Mutilators are "backfield" distraction, area denial, or "not worth shooting at" objective cappers. Free FNP and Veterans of the Long War do help out

 techsoldaten wrote:
Over the holidays, I play tested Black Legion and Death Guard lists to understand how they worked on the tabletop.

Played against Eldar in friendly games. Opponent brought a semi-competitive list that included a Farseer, 2 squads of Scatterbikes and 2 Wraithguard squads along with walkers and infantry units, but no big vehicles.

Vs. Black Legion, I brought a deep strike list built around Abaddon, the Bringers of Despair and 2 Cyclopia Cabals. Other units included raptors, terminators, CSMs and bikes. I went second.

The BoD and both Cabals came in on the first turn. Out of 9 squads that could deep strike, only 3 arrived. The Sorcerers got off Shroud of Deceit on the Scatterbikes, which shot each other up, while the BoD took out the Farseer with TL bolters. The next turn, they took a lot of shots.

Lesson learned was to roll for all reserve squads before placing the Warlord. Having to wait to assault is not a great thing when he stands in the middle of the entire enemy army. One good thing is Abaddon is he is still Abaddon and wrecks a lot of things once he does get into cc.

vs. Death Guard, my list consisted of a CL, Plague Marines, Chosen, Havocs, Bikes and a Terminator Annihilation force, playing against the same Eldar list.

The game went 4 rounds before we ended it. Both of us were frustrated because no one was destroying anything. Throughout the game, we missed maybe 30 saving throws total, all from shooting.

Lesson learned: it takes a lot of shots to kill Plague Marines.

You should probably get a fortification with comms relay. Something like a cad of iron warriors with 2 oblis and a sorc or a 2+ re-rollable dp, a bunker or aegis line with comms relay.

BrianDavion wrote:
Given CSMs can now take squadrons ala the SM tanks, how would a iron warriors grand company build along these lines work?

Warband with a Chaos Lord (power weapon, Sigil, and flesh metal exo skeleton)
3 10 man CSM sqauds,
1 5 man terminator Squad with 4 combi meltas.
1 Helbrute,
1 3 man Bike Squad.

and a Fist of the Gods deatchment with
Warpsmith,
1 3 man Vindicator squadron
2 Predators.

I've costed it out to be around 1517 or so points, the idea is to make use of the re-roll on ordinance scatter dice in combination with the linebreaker bombardment rule (giving the vindicators squadron when full the option to fire a nasty ignores cover apoclypse tempalte blast) my guess is that it's a trick you'll be able to use ONCE, but IMHO it's one of the more effective ways to use the Iron Warriors ordinance re-roll

I've had a bit of experience running a list trying to capitalize on the the Fist of the Gods of IW. Here are my thoughts:

Pros:
+ Firing off a Linebreaker Bombardment is just as satisfying as you think it should be. A good shot can wipe out multiple squads and even disable/wreck/explode some vehicles, if you're lucky.
+ Anything you bring besides the tanks has at least one free turn of not being shot by any gun with a chance to hurt Vindi's. Good for other tanks to sweep into position/grab objectives with rhinos

Cons:
- Having First or Second turn both kind of screw you. Best is having second and then seizing (Read: unlikely). If you go first, your opponent only needs to deploy semi-intelligently (keep things out of 30" inch range of Vindi's - 6" move, 24" shot). If Second, they will do everything in their power to disable one Vindi in each squad to prevent the Linebreaker Bombardment from happening.
- For reasons mentioned above, you have to spend a ton of points on Vindi's. Minimum, each needs Demonic Possession and a Combi-Bolter to the give the best chance of firing when in range and you need to field more than one full squadron.
- Even without rerolling scatter, the Large Blasts from the demolisher and the Linebreaker Bombardment have a good/very good chance of hitting what you put them on anyways, which largely makes the IW bonus irrelevant. I hate this more than any other Con.

All of that being said, I have had some success with this style of list ... but it's very "Shock and Awe" in terms of tabletop. Everyone is afraid of what you "could" do and that helps to bring out weaknesses and put your opponent on the defensive. However, a couple good pen's or a list with moderate to heavy Anti-tank and you're left scooting some crippled Vindi's around the table making car/tank noises while your opponent outmaneuvers the slow stuff and gets to giggle every time another Vindi is crippled/wrecked/exploded. I think it is best to forget that IW's have any kind of reroll to Barrage and Ordinance for now. Maybe we'll get access to Basilisks or something next edition or in a campaign book.

I wrote another Purge list. Feth Obsec, blow stuff up.

++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Fist and Claw & Sigil of Corruption - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150

++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Fist and Claw & Sigil of Corruption - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150

Total: 1850

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I wrote another Purge list. Feth Obsec, blow stuff up.

++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Power Fist & Sigil of Corruption - 150
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150

++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Power Fist & Sigil of Corruption - 150
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150

Total: 1850

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I wrote another Purge list. Feth Obsec, blow stuff up.

++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Power Fist & Sigil of Corruption - 150
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150

++Purge Detachment++
-Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle on Bike, w/ Power Fist & Sigil of Corruption - 150
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Chosen w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Plasma Guns - 165
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Autocannons - 130
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150
-5 Havocs w/ Mark of Nurgle & 4 Missile Launchers - 150

Total: 1850

So the chosen are on foot?

Yes. Everything is on foot and Relentless. You're basically running pseudo-Necrons.

Nah you need Rhinos. Dutch a single Havoc squad and you can fit them in.

Writing up some 1500 points lists for my Nurgle traitor chapter running the Death Guard Rules. This is what I've got so far
Chaos Warband
Chaos Lord Sigil Of Corruption Power Fist MoN votlw 130 points

10 chaos marines MoN 2 plasma guns votlw 200
Rhino 35 points

10 CSM MoN 2 Plasma Guns VOTLW 200 points

Rhino 35 points

7 Chosen MON 4 Plasma Guns VOTLW 212
Rhino 35 points


3 Chaos Bikers 2 Flamers Conbi Flamer MON VOTLW 108 points

Hellbrute 100 points

Auxiliary
Lost and the damned
4 x 10 cultists MoN on all 280 points
Dark Apostle pox walker hive 150 points

Always spring for the bike.

I'm honestly sick of biker lords lol

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I'm honestly sick of biker lords lol

And?

You're not taking him in a Terminator or Raptor formation, so what are you really expecting to get out of him? Plus avoiding ID from S10 is pretty good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I'm honestly sick of biker lords lol

And?

You're not taking him in a Terminator or Raptor formation, so what are you really expecting to get out of him? Plus avoiding ID from S10 is pretty good.

what what does he need ti justify wanting to do something differant?

Stick him in a unit of CSM in a Rhino and charge him up the middle of the table see how long he lasts.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I'm honestly sick of biker lords lol

And?

You're not taking him in a Terminator or Raptor formation, so what are you really expecting to get out of him? Plus avoiding ID from S10 is pretty good.

what what does he need ti justify wanting to do something differant?

Because there's no reason behind it. None at all. In the tactics subforum, I expect more rhyme and reason than "I'm honestly sick of biker Lords lol".

It's a self-imposed limitation, just like everyone else makes when they say "I'm going to play CSM."

I got a game today, against an Iron Warrior Company (3000 pts).
I played an Armoured Company, from Imperial Amour 1.

I have to say, the Iron Warrior bonus were very useful against me !
He killed several leman russes through their armour 14, with lascannons (tank hunter...).
His fearless marines didn't flee when I killed more than half of them because they were in an aegis.
Fnp wasn't that useful, especially against battle cannnons, but it was visible.
Tank hunter was stupid good against my list, but it wasn't a common list.

 godardc wrote:
I got a game today, against an Iron Warrior Company (3000 pts).
I played an Armoured Company, from Imperial Amour 1.

I have to say, the Iron Warrior bonus were very useful against me !
He killed several leman russes through their armour 14, with lascannons (tank hunter...).
His fearless marines didn't flee when I killed more than half of them because they were in an aegis.
Fnp wasn't that useful, especially against battle cannnons, but it was visible.
Tank hunter was stupid good against my list, but it wasn't a common list.

If its good against AV14, imagine how good it is against AV11, gladius is a common list and IW will wreck gladius

Yea I think Iron Warriors might be getting underrated a bit. Forget the detachment, run a CAD with fortifications, oblits as troops, triple havocs. Possibly a Tzeentch prince with the 2+ armour relic- some bikes to have more bodies to advance with. Use the formations for vehicles like dinobots. The warpsmith might seem like a tax but in this case he's fluffy enough that I'd happily take him

I'd probably rank IW above Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. A similar place to Black Legion and Night Lords. Not sure where World Eaters fit

Alpha Legion is definitely better than Iron Warriors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alpha Legion is definitely better than Iron Warriors.

I'm not sure about that... Alpha Legion rules buff some units (troops and chosen) that people didn't want to field to begin with, but had to. Iron Warriors have a blanket buff on all non vehicles, remove the need to field any mediocre units at all and further buffed two already good units (havocs and obliterators).

The Alpha Legion detachment is better than the IW one, but by using that detachment you can't take advantage of chosen troops. On top of that you'd need to field the cultists formation (minimum cost 300 points) to really take advantage of the AL rules, a formation that wasn't popular before Traitor Legions came out

I suppose it depends how much you rate infiltrating/outflanking CSM squads, chosen and cultists. I think AL are capable of good builds based on mass MSU and playing to the mission, which seems very fluffy. So are Iron Warriors for that matter- a bit tougher than average and good at killing with heavy weapons. Different flavours.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alpha Legion is definitely better than Iron Warriors.

I think they both have situational uses dependant on what your faces. I'd rank IWs ahead in armor heavy meta

An iron warrior player finished 4-th in our local 12-man tourney. Not too bad for a guy who plays csm for like the 4-th time.
He had a naked warband with ac havoks, cult of destruction with 2-1-1 oblis and a 2 heldrake formation. He also played his first 3 games thinking that obliterators have heavy stubbers instead of autocannons and none of the twin-linked gear (plazma, melta, flamer). So he only used heavy flamers, laz and multi-meltas.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alpha Legion is definitely better than Iron Warriors.

I'm not sure about that... Alpha Legion rules buff some units (troops and chosen) that people didn't want to field to begin with, but had to. Iron Warriors have a blanket buff on all non vehicles, remove the need to field any mediocre units at all and further buffed two already good units (havocs and obliterators).

The Alpha Legion detachment is better than the IW one, but by using that detachment you can't take advantage of chosen troops. On top of that you'd need to field the cultists formation (minimum cost 300 points) to really take advantage of the AL rules, a formation that wasn't popular before Traitor Legions came out

I suppose it depends how much you rate infiltrating/outflanking CSM squads, chosen and cultists. I think AL are capable of good builds based on mass MSU and playing to the mission, which seems very fluffy. So are Iron Warriors for that matter- a bit tougher than average and good at killing with heavy weapons. Different flavours.

Out flanking and Infiltrate with special weapon spam is super good. Remember how Cypher made Chosen actually okay to use? It is the same thing without the ATSKNF bonus and having LD10 instead.
Cultists infiltrating is just the icing on the cake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alpha Legion is definitely better than Iron Warriors.

I think they both have situational uses dependant on what your faces. I'd rank IWs ahead in armor heavy meta

In what manner? Alpha Legion will get Melta Guns closer. That's better than Tank Hunters on Lascannons.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I got a game today, against an Iron Warrior Company (3000 pts).
I played an Armoured Company, from Imperial Amour 1.

I have to say, the Iron Warrior bonus were very useful against me !
He killed several leman russes through their armour 14, with lascannons (tank hunter...).
His fearless marines didn't flee when I killed more than half of them because they were in an aegis.
Fnp wasn't that useful, especially against battle cannnons, but it was visible.
Tank hunter was stupid good against my list, but it wasn't a common list.

If its good against AV14, imagine how good it is against AV11, gladius is a common list and IW will wreck gladius

The thing isn't about if you will destroy rhino, it is how many rhino could you destroy each turn, and how many do they have ?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alpha Legion is definitely better than Iron Warriors.

I'm not sure about that... Alpha Legion rules buff some units (troops and chosen) that people didn't want to field to begin with, but had to. Iron Warriors have a blanket buff on all non vehicles, remove the need to field any mediocre units at all and further buffed two already good units (havocs and obliterators).

The Alpha Legion detachment is better than the IW one, but by using that detachment you can't take advantage of chosen troops. On top of that you'd need to field the cultists formation (minimum cost 300 points) to really take advantage of the AL rules, a formation that wasn't popular before Traitor Legions came out

I suppose it depends how much you rate infiltrating/outflanking CSM squads, chosen and cultists. I think AL are capable of good builds based on mass MSU and playing to the mission, which seems very fluffy. So are Iron Warriors for that matter- a bit tougher than average and good at killing with heavy weapons. Different flavours.

Out flanking and Infiltrate with special weapon spam is super good. Remember how Cypher made Chosen actually okay to use? It is the same thing without the ATSKNF bonus and having LD10 instead.
Cultists infiltrating is just the icing on the cake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alpha Legion is definitely better than Iron Warriors.

I think they both have situational uses dependant on what your faces. I'd rank IWs ahead in armor heavy meta

In what manner? Alpha Legion will get Melta Guns closer. That's better than Tank Hunters on Lascannons.

If you infiltrate in order to get into melta range, you will get maybe one turn of shooting before getting shredded by mass grav. All the opponent has to do is deploy in a way that you have to be in the open in order to get within 12" range.

Because you can expect 3 Obliterators to live compared to 6 Chosen with Melta Guns and a Rhino?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because you can expect 3 Obliterators to live compared to 6 Chosen with Melta Guns and a Rhino?

Oblits with 2+/5++ behind or in cover up 24-48 inches away, or infiltrating anything. Yeah, the Oblits will prolly live a bit longer than what you infiltrate, especially if you serve up meltas that close and don't go first.

In other news: I'm on the fence about keeping my DP with Glaive in my WE list. 260 points total with Gift and all other required upgrades. I could take a Juggerlord with Gorefather and Spawn escort for that much and be just as fast. The DP has Initiative on his side, though, and he's hopping over terrain while ignoring it completely. He's just so big of a fire magnet I find my opponent focusing him asap, meanwhile everything else rolls up unopposed.

On second thought maybe I'll keep him.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because you can expect 3 Obliterators to live compared to 6 Chosen with Melta Guns and a Rhino?

3 Oblits? If I bring a IW CAD, its going to be min of 6 single oblits. They have 48" first round lascannon volley, then they could switch to plasma cannons at 36" or multi-melts, def more cost effective.

SM grav cannons can only shoot 12" if they move.

Played WE vs Crons, he replaced his Annihilation Barge with the Judicator Battalion thing, two Arks and his CC Warlord unit. I had arguably a terrible list: warband with Kharn, 3 naked termies, 5 bikes with meltas, two units of Havocs with 5 meltas each, two rhinos one with anomaly, two MSU CSM, and a DP and juggerlords and spawn.

He conceded top of turn three. He didn't know Walkers don't get smash and walked his big judicator walker guy into combat where it stayed. I got two turn one charges off, DP and Spawn Juggerlord, and they started destroying everything. I eliminated all his Scarabs turn one as well. Overall he didn't play his list correctly and it wasn't very good (scarabs on the deployment line, wraths going after my bikes, things close enough for my turn one charges to go off), but mine wasn't very good either (havocs did absolutely nothing, termies wiped out turn one after failing their assault move, useless burning brand lord, my deamon weapons wanting to murder me over my enemy). I'm dropping havocs completely for an anomaly helbrute and taking rhinos with the CSM to sit on the backfield objectives. IDK if I want to try to make the CSM any more killy or beef up the bodies or what I want to do with them yet.

And I've been slingshotting Kharn into combat with the Spawn Juggerlord unit. It stretches out enough to hold onto him while keeping two spawn in front to soak up overwatch.