CSM Traitor Legions Tactica

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**-v10mega**

I have serious question, if the poxwalker hive allows cultists to have fnp and fearless for the entire game, could that combine with nurgle cultists? Nurgle cultists have t4, then you give them fnp and fearless, they become just as durable as iron hand marines. you could get some sorceres and give them endurance, now you have 33 cultists with EW and 4+++ put them with the thousand sorcerers and make them jump, you have a large blight of wounds and a crap ton of wounds and very strong killing power. Will that work?

**andysonic1**

koooaei wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
Nice. How did the Terminators fare as far as being an in-game threat?

They fared surprisingly ok vs an army with 90% stuff being ap2. They're really fuelled by a talisman juggerlord. I also ran an alpha apostle with mindveil which helped out in the right moment.

Termies scouted forward and multicharged 3 units of sisters 1-st turn, i lost 3 termies and lord suffered 3 wounds but wiped 2.5 units. Than as they were still locked in combat, grav cents had to choose another target and wiped all my mages and bikes - that i separated from the main deathstar cause sisters of silence get stronger vs units with mages and deny all the buffs anywayz. Than termies got charged by another unit of sisters of silence and due to positioning and their ini5 attacks, they killed another 3 termies before i could strike back - but when termies and lord did strike back, they wiped all but one lucky sister. Than mindveiled 11" towards centurions with a fist chapter master. Charged them wiping the squad - lord did most of the power lifting. Termies did kill a centurion beforehand with combi-meltas and bolters, so it helped out. Than the second centurion squad came from reserves and finished off terminators, however, apostle and lord managed to survive - each of them having 1 wound. They than teamed up with havoks and almost wiped the centurions in mellee - sarge still managed to hit and run with the last wound and than grav away 4 out of 5 havoks. Got finished off shortly after. In the meanwhile oblis were doing ok vs his vehicles, cultists were running around scoring, flaming marines and the rest of the sisters of silence - even managed to kill a couple in mellee. Though, it was an odd dice game. One turn i got 8 ones in a row - including when i needed to charge 3" with cultists, 4" with marines - re-rollable and pass 2 2+ saves with termies vs centurions in mellee. However, it evened out by amazing 4++ with apostle vs grav and the most important 5++ of the termie champ that somehow survived a challenge vs fist chapter master. By the end of the game, there wasn't much left on board on both sides but chaos got so many vp in the 1-st and 2-d round that it was a safe solid victory in the end.

Things that i'd change - meltas for bikes. Were not worth it in like every game i fielded them. I'd rather have an extra body or squeeze some extra pts for a spawn. Not really sure about the cultist formation but the mindveil was golden and i guess 110 pts over for the ability to resurrect from time to time is not a high price to pay for an allready ok unit of cultists with a flamer. I'm still not sure what to do with regular marines. On one hand, bp+ccw seems logical with all those mellee buffs. But it's not the first game where they didn't do anything at all in mellee cause they either couldn't get there or were killed without doing anything - like when 2 sister squads charged them in this game. However, they tend to shoot bolt pistols and throw grenades most of the time. I guess they could really go with bolters still remaining ok in mellee with 3 attacks instead of 4 - and the champ can still have his bp + ccw just in case.

As for termie's performance, they kinda made their points back by tanking wounds with 5++ and dealing a couple ap2 blows here and there but they'd never work without a lord. In this very matchup khornedogs would have been significantly better as deathstar meat for the lord and mages. But termies still have their merits. A chainfist is great vs knights, potential 4 s6 ap2 attacks with hatred per base can even be brutal - especially when it's not unheard of fighting vs 2+ re-rollable - and it's gona be even more often now with all the new imperial moneygrab releases. Dogs are still better overall due to grav and all the ap2 floating around and the fact that dogs get 4 5++ wounds for the price of 1 termie and they can be cheaper. But the fact that new rules have made termies even remotely a considerable option is great on it's own.

How did you 2D6 move with the Termistar and then Mindveil out next turn? You cannot 2D6 anything that is not a part of the Butcherhorde, so did your Alpha Legion HQ just catch up with the Termis before they charged turn one?

**Captyn_Bob**

In regard to mark of nurgle zombies - yes absolutely.
(The thousand sons character couldn't join the unit, so that part is tricky)

In regard to the mindviel and butcherhorde. I would put the alpha character on a bike and join up T1. Failing that daisy chain some terminators back.

**koooaei**

andysonic1 wrote:
How did you 2D6 move with the Termistar and then Mindveil out next turn? You cannot 2D6 anything that is not a part of the Butcherhorde, so did your Alpha Legion HQ just catch up with the Termis before they charged turn one?

Termies and lord did, apostle and sorcs didn't and just remained in unit coherency.
If we got the new faq right, you can do that as models move individually and there's no requirement for each model in the unit to have the rule. Also, you will get charge re-rolls for models inmixed units from the World eaturion bonus.

**Captyn_Bob**

koooaei wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
How did you 2D6 move with the Termistar and then Mindveil out next turn? You cannot 2D6 anything that is not a part of the Butcherhorde, so did your Alpha Legion HQ just catch up with the Termis before they charged turn one?

Termies and lord did, apostle and sorcs didn't and just remained in unit coherency.
If we got the new faq right, you can do that as models move individually and there's no requirement for each model in the unit to have the rule. Also, you will get charge re-rolls for models inmixed units from the World eaturion bonus.

generally that's correct, but the butcherhorde bonus move specifies that the entire unit has to be in that detachment to get the bonus.

**koooaei**

It says
After deployment and Infiltrate but before the first turn begins, all non-vehicle models may immediately move 2d6 inches (roll for each individual unit)

**Slayer-Fan123**

Anyone else use the Purge FOC yet for their Death Guard? It is simply the best way for us to get our Plague Marine fix but with Chosen instead. I ran the following last night after work:

The Purge - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. MoN, Bike, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Melta Bombs, Blight Grenades

x5 Chosen
. MoN, 3 Melta Guns, 1 Combi-Melta, Flamer, Rhino w/ Dozer Blades
x5 Chosen
, MoN, 3 Melta Guns, 1 Combi-Melta, Flamer, Rhino w/ Dozer Blades
x5 Chosen
. MoN, 3 Melta Guns, 1 Combi-Melta, Flamer, Rhino w/ Dozer Blades

Raptor Talon - Death Guard
x1 Lord
. MoN, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Melta Bombs, Blight Grenades

x5 Raptors
. MoN, 2 Melta Guns, Melta Bombs
x5 Raptors
. MoN, 2 Melta Guns, Melta Bombs
x5 Raptors
. MoN, 2 Melta Guns, Melta Bombs

Terminator Annihilation Force - Death Guard
x1 Lord
. MoN, Chainfist, Burning Brand, Sigil, Blight Grenades

x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes

While all my games ended in my favor, I STILL feel something is lacking. I didn't miss the OS of Plague Marines in a CAD, so that clearly wasn't it. We won't win the objective game against Gladius or Eldar. However, I don't think Terminators are the way to go in the list, even though the Terminator Lord himself makes an incredible distraction now. Yeah he can roast a unit in one go, but is that worth the Terminator tax? I'm unsure.
I'm considering cutting all the Terminators together, just leaving the Lord and paying for the suit of Terminator armor, and maybe getting more Chosen.

**Captyn_Bob**

koooaei wrote:
It says
After deployment and Infiltrate but before the first turn begins, all non-vehicle models may immediately move 2d6 inches (roll for each individual unit)

Does it now? Then we have different versions. ..
I have the ebook and it says:

"all non-vehicle units comprised entirely of models from this Detachment can immediately made a 2d6" move (roll separately for each unit). "

**lessthanjeff**

koooaei wrote:
It says
After deployment and Infiltrate but before the first turn begins, all non-vehicle models may immediately move 2d6 inches (roll for each individual unit)

The quote is "units comprised entirely of models from this Detachment can immediately make a 2D6" move"

**techsoldaten**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Terminator Annihilation Force - Death Guard
x1 Lord
. MoN, Chainfist, Burning Brand, Sigil, Blight Grenades

x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes

While all my games ended in my favor, I STILL feel something is lacking. I didn't miss the OS of Plague Marines in a CAD, so that clearly wasn't it. We won't win the objective game against Gladius or Eldar. However, I don't think Terminators are the way to go in the list, even though the Terminator Lord himself makes an incredible distraction now. Yeah he can roast a unit in one go, but is that worth the Terminator tax? I'm unsure.
I'm considering cutting all the Terminators together, just leaving the Lord and paying for the suit of Terminator armor, and maybe getting more Chosen.

I never thought Death Guard terminators looked right on a table until I saw power scythes in their hands.

It is a lot of points, but realize Targeted for Annihilation can be a very powerful tool. The way I see it, the formation you picked allows you to do a lot more than kill a single squad the turn you arrive. If you break a tank with the free round of shooting the turn you arrive, you can shoot up the occupants pretty well in the actual shooting phase.

**lessthanjeff**

When you roll the d3+1 rolls on the boon table result, have you guys played that those get doubled by the warband bonuses? If so, I had a term champ get 16 rolls on the table. It wasn't going to affect anything else in the game so we didn't resolve it, but it was funny and I was curious if you guys had seen something to rule one way or the other. Just not sure whether those count as being from the "champion of chaos" rule since a librarian kill was what led to the rolls that created more rolls.

**Table**

Ive been toying with the idea of adding a small Alpha legion detachment to my Black Legion Alpha build. Currently I am raptor heavy but I am eyeing the Terminator Annihilation Force if you take Burning Brand on the lord and put in two AL independent char's with the bolter upgrade relics I am thinking you can get some decent firepower on a alpha strike then move in to assault. There are two problems however, first is I am not near my copy of TL or TH so I cant read the all important terminology used to for TAF. If its models from this formation then the tactic wont work, if its units then I am gtg. The second is it leaves a pretty big foot print on the warlords turn 1 drop because you are running 3 termis, and 1 lord and two sorcs in Term armor. The second is that you are left with 2 sqwuads of terminators that wont accomplish much besides suicide melta due to lack of Obsec or FNP. Ill know more of what I plan to do when I get home and can read the rules. Im hoping its units.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Well Combi-Plasma suicide is still fairly neat.

**koooaei**

lessthanjeff wrote:
koooaei wrote:
It says
After deployment and Infiltrate but before the first turn begins, all non-vehicle models may immediately move 2d6 inches (roll for each individual unit)

The quote is "units comprised entirely of models from this Detachment can immediately make a 2D6" move"

hm, than the list needs adjusting.

**Latro_**

Gave my IW an outing with the new book

CaD
basic lord
7 havocs - 4 melta, fist, rhino
7 havocs - 4 lascannon
10 marines, HB/PG
10 marines, 2 melta, fist, rhno
3 obilts
las helbrute
vindi
Dakka Knight

Basically a very old army from 2004 with some new bits in so not hyper competitive.

Mate had:
TW cav (like 8) with a priest
Ragnar with BC in a storm wolf
grey hunters in a storm wolf
2 dreads
5 long fangs with multimeltas

To be fair his list was a bit of a slapped together and he was unlucky, tabled him turn 3.

highlight was both his SW's coming on and obilterating my knight only to have my havocs:
melta ragnar's out the sky not rolling a single one (killing 15 blood claws and ragnar!)

then the las havocs doing pretty much the same to the other one the turn after!

Tank hunter on obilts and havocs seemed like a huge boost! Cost him dearly as SW's have armoured cermite so he opted not to jink the meltaguns but ofc i had a re-roll and got those 5's!

also made a couple of 6+ FnPs

also got the WL trait that lets obilts withint 12" use the same gun, actually game in really handy!

pretty happy with how the list plays although i expect vs tougher lists a lot of my stuff could crumble.

One thing i have noticed playing with these new rules is that from a warm fuzzy fluff perspective it does 'feel' like you are playing with that legion, which is great.

**koooaei**

Yeah, i feel that iron warrior bonuses have been underestimated.

How did you deal with twc, btw?

**Latro_**

koooaei wrote:
Yeah, i feel that iron warrior bonuses have been underestimated.

How did you deal with twc, btw?

He didn't run them to well only a couple of SS's and a bit unit. The knight obv had 24 s6 ap3 rending shots so wittled them down with the odd lascannon round actually got one with mass bolter fire too. They still made it to CC with 3 of them just piled in two units of marines and help them up, the iron priest was the last model in the army to drop whilst in CC with the CSM.

Now i think about it i forgot hatred for Votlw!! damn!!!

**Table**

koooaei wrote:
Yeah, i feel that iron warrior bonuses have been underestimated.

How did you deal with twc, btw?

The problem with IW's is not that the legion rules are bad, they are not. Its just they could have been more and better. Id have liked the warlord trait that allows oblit weapon choices to be consecutive to be a legion rule. But the main problem with IWs is the legion detachment which only cover half of the fluff and is mostly useless unless you load up on defilers or vindicators or a macro cannon fort. If the bonus had simply included blast re-rolls it would have been good. But the detachment forces you to take either a horrible unit that is two times as expensive as it should be or a good solid tank with close range firepower or a fort with a barrage or ord weapon. Actually it would have been better to switch a few rules between the legion rules and the detachment rules. If the detachment rule had been legion it would at least let IW's take advantage of it with FW units which is far more fluffly than what we ended up with.

No one is going to argue that tank hunter havoc's or oblits are anything but great, when you fight AV that is.

**koooaei**

On the other hand it makes cad even more appealing. you don't miss much from decurions and get freedom of choice, troop oblis and no tax at all.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Due to there being no tax like that, another power combo could be an Alpha Legion CAD and Iron Warriors CAD.

**aka_mythos**

Table wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Yeah, i feel that iron warrior bonuses have been underestimated.

How did you deal with twc, btw?

The problem with IW's is not that the legion rules are bad, they are not. Its just they could have been more and better. Id have liked the warlord trait that allows oblit weapon choices to be consecutive to be a legion rule. But the main problem with IWs is the legion detachment which only cover half of the fluff and is mostly useless unless you load up on defilers or vindicators or a macro cannon fort. If the bonus had simply included blast re-rolls it would have been good. But the detachment forces you to take either a horrible unit that is two times as expensive as it should be or a good solid tank with close range firepower or a fort with a barrage or ord weapon. Actually it would have been better to switch a few rules between the legion rules and the detachment rules. If the detachment rule had been legion it would at least let IW's take advantage of it with FW units which is far more fluffly than what we ended up with.

No one is going to argue that tank hunter havoc's or oblits are anything but great, when you fight AV that is.

Wall of Martyrs weapon battery emplacement with battle cannons is the most cost effective means of ordnance fortifications... That said I agree. The rules are good but the Iron Warriors really suffer from how their rules were parsed. Unlike other legions the Iron Warriors army, to be fully realized, has to be built around two detachments. One central issue, is how the Legion rules have an emphasis on Obliterators and yet besides the cult of destruction there really isn't a way to use them in the Grand Company... and the cult is a bad formation. There simply isn't a reason to ever take Obliterators in anything other than a CAD. The cult of destruction, the Warpsmith is too expensive of a tax and unless you're going for 6 or more Obliterators, the benefit doesn't justify the cost, because you could always just take more Obliterators in place of the Warpsmith and have a similar effect without having to march the formation around like a unit and without being forced into targeting a single enemy unit when using that ability. Thus you take them in a CAD, 6 individual Obliterators each their own unit, optimizing flexibility, mitigating deep strike risks, and increasing the likelihood your opponent wastes shots if they do go after them... where the only tax is an HQ choice, that's more worthwhile than the meh-Warpsmith.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Due to there being no tax like that, another power combo could be an Alpha Legion CAD and Iron Warriors CAD.

I don't believe it this combo, but I think you're onto the yet fully realized potential of this book. The book makes it advantageous to take multiple detachments and once that happens there really isn't a reason to fixate on a single Legion. The undivided legions, I feel are really setup to promotes them as secondary choices to be combined with another Legion.

**Table**

I do not think legions were intended to be mixed and matched. I think they left that as a solid option, yes. Even a better option in a few case's. But its main goal was to give chaos players what they have asked for since the old dex. Working legions. And some of those legions work, some dont. In typical GW fashion. But there is a whole other side to this thats probably best left off the tactics forums But it bears mentioning that the IW entry to the supplement was very lacking in this department. We were given half of legion with no mention at all to the other half. Im not sure if this is a retcon as they have been so wont to do in the past 10 years or so or if it was pure laziness.

**andysonic1**

I'm building a 2k list of World Eaters to play against my friend's Imperial Guard. He's going to be bringing tanks out the wazoo along with two basilisk artillery carriages.

My usual World Eater list is as follows:

Butcherhorde

- Chaos Warband

- - AoBF Juggerlord, Sigil, Gift (escorted by spawn)
- - 3 - 5 Termies, Axes and C-Bolters (escort for termie lord)
- - 5 bikes, 2x meltas
- - Helbrute with rift anomaly (cheaper than taking a unit of havocs with rhino + anomaly, yes walkers don't benefit from 2D6 free move but I wouldn't have moved missile launcher havocs either)
- - two units of base CSM (backfield objective holders)

- Lords of the Legion

- - Black Mace Juggerlord, Sigil, GIft (escorted by bikes)
- - Talisman Termi lord, Gift, Axe, C-Bolter
- - Glaive Deamon Prince, GIft

- Aux

- - 3 - 4 spawn

I've only ever run into problems when invisibility is involved, otherwise the lords and prince smash through everything. Even if one unit gets singled out and demolished, the other units are still rushing headlong into combat. I've thought about adding a CAD of IW with 6 oblits, or another idea was an Ally Detachment of KDK with a Korlath lord scouting forward with five hounds as a fire magnet. A free Bloodthirster at full strength across the table seems fun and can take fire off my WE. I've also considered a Gorefather Deamon Prince or a Gorefather Juggerlord with Spawn escort. Or I can make the lord escorts beefier. Lots of options, all I know is I'm going to get shot a lot.

**Captyn_Bob**

Shiny.
Perhaps Kharn could be an option for countering invis? (if my faq recall is correct)

**godardc**

So, eventually, how does the World Eater Legion compares to the Khorne Daemonkin ?
They seem faster but not as resistant.

**andysonic1**

I'm not sure I want to fit Kharn into the list. Juggerlords and Deamon Princes are so much faster and just as killy. Besides I don't think my friend is going to be casting invis as much as shooty buffs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
So, eventually, how does the World Eater Legion compares to the Khorne Daemonkin ?
They seem faster but not as resistant.

WE are definitely not as resilient as KDK in my opinion mostly because KDK involved tons of Hounds which are pretty beefy. Plus you can occasionally get FNP across the board which helps a lot.

I was actually considering taking a Gorepack and sticking WE Juggerlords to the Hound units. My opponents are learning not to let me turn one charge, so the free 2D6 move from the Butcherhorde is losing its luster. A Hound scout move into cover and a turn one of repositioning for turn two charges is what I used to do with KDK and it worked fairly well. WE Juggerlords are 10x more killy than KDK Juggerlords, so mixing the best of both worlds might yield some good results.

**Rydria**

Starting to think that icon of excess aren't really worth it on anything except bikes, been trying to make use of 10 man squads of marines so that I get maximum value from the icons, but it never works out. God I miss charging out of stationary rhinos.

So think I will just stop buying them and try out some kind of Noise Marine rhino rush with doom sirens in minimum sized units I feel like I am wasting allot of pts taking 4/5 extra guys plus the Icon when there rarely do anything, especially in noise marines where most of the work is done by the doom siren wielding champion.

**Jimsolo**

What would be the best loadout for Night Lords Raptors?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Jimsolo wrote:
What would be the best loadout for Night Lords Raptors?

Melta Guns and an Icon at 10 dudes.

**koooaei**

Jimsolo wrote:
What would be the best loadout for Night Lords Raptors?

Depending on what you take them for and what kind of detachment they come from.

In any case, i'd not run them in anything other than 5-man squads. Raptors are not good enough to be real mellee killers - they perform as weak squad harrassers and scorers. And 5 man squads are suffecient enough for it. Furthermore, if you want to deepstrike them, the smaller their footprint is - the better. Deepstike without scatter mitigation is very risky and you want to minimise your chances of a mishap. Furthermore, you allready have access to 2 special weapons and a champ with a 5-man squad.
As for the special weapons, it will all depend on their role and each weapon has it's uses. I'd probably go for melta in a raptor talon and flamers/plazma/nothing in a cad. ~~Unlike bikers, raptors loose extra attacks for taking special weapons, so it's not always a must~~ Seems they do keep bp+ccw even after taking a special weapon. Sometimes you could even consider a power weapon for your sarge. Something like a mace could be great vs vehicles and soft targets.