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Loopstah wrote:
Just starting up Iron Warriors and I was wondering if the Heldrake is OK? I remember it being considered OP when it was first released but was under the impression it had been nerfed a lot since then.

it's still an ace model. All they did was give it a firing arc, in a sense. So no more torrenting dudes way behind you. It's still an ap3 flying template, so it's really good vs space marines. (especially with MSU being so popular, can roast squads fairly easy)

jSewell wrote:So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)

I'd say (without much testing myself, just seeing people posting their own results and theorycraft):
1. Death Guard

2. Alpha Legion
World Eaters
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Black Legion
Emperor's Children

3. Thousand Sons

4. Word Bearers

 Vector Strike wrote:

jSewell wrote:So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)

I'd say (without much testing myself, just seeing people posting their own results and theorycraft):
1. Death Guard

2. Alpha Legion
World Eaters
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Black Legion
Emperor's Children

3. Thousand Sons

4. Word Bearers

In my humble opinion I think Thousand Sons is #1 or tie with Black Legion (Cabal Star). Not because TS has the best overall unit selections, frankly rubrics, occult termies are all pretty garbage. TS is #1 only because of Magnus, he is probably the most competitive and destructive model available to CSM.

I can back my statement up not only with my own play testing but with one of the most recent GTs, the Huzzah Hobby ITC GT. The final top table was between Nick nanaveti's Rehati War Sect vs. Eldar.

I myself runs Magnus with a minimal CAD along side Omniscient Oracle formation, had success against strong GSC, WS Gladius and Eldar armies.

Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.

Just realized you said you're taking Magnus with Omniscient Oracle. Congrats, you're playing Chaos Deamons that include Magnus, not Thousand Sons.

It's a 650pt model.

He's not there as a paperweight!

Loopstah wrote:Just starting up Iron Warriors and I was wondering if the Heldrake is OK? I remember it being considered OP when it was first released but was under the impression it had been nerfed a lot since then.

You can no longer vector a transport to death and then flame the contents like in 6th, but it's still a serious threat to anything that isn't wearing a 2+ or extreme MSU. I honestly don't think that you can go wrong with including 1 in your list. Of note, even without any skyfiring weapons, it's still d3 str7 ap2 ignores cover hits on a flier/FMC, so it's still capable of putting a 4 wound FMC down in 1 turn with a favourable damage roll and a grounding check. It's not great, but one combined without pointing some autohavoks or a forgefiend skywards can usually get the job done in a pinch. It's never not going to be good against marines, especially since it's our only "real" ignores cover option in a game more and more dominated by cover shenanigans.

Vector Strike wrote:

jSewell wrote:So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)

I'd say (without much testing myself, just seeing people posting their own results and theorycraft):
1. Death Guard

2. Alpha Legion
World Eaters
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Black Legion
Emperor's Children

3. Thousand Sons

4. Word Bearers

DG & WE notably ahead of everything else, then everyone else. Honourable mention to BL on a technicality for the cabal as part of a cabalstar, but that's not really BL, it's just tax free unmarked sorcerors.

SonsofVulkan wrote:In my humble opinion I think Thousand Sons is #1 or tie with Black Legion (Cabal Star). Not because TS has the best overall unit selections, frankly rubrics, occult termies are all pretty garbage. TS is #1 only because of Magnus, he is probably the most competitive and destructive model available to CSM.

I can back my statement up not only with my own play testing but with one of the most recent GTs, the Huzzah Hobby ITC GT. The final top table was between Nick nanaveti's Rehati War Sect vs. Eldar.

I myself runs Magnus with a minimal CAD along side Omniscient Oracle formation, had success against strong GSC, WS Gladius and Eldar armies.

Magnus and LoC's arent Thousand Sons. Nick's flying circus list, while technically thousand sons, contains no real sons units, just Magnus and 3 princes. The actual units that one associates with the Sons are pretty terrible anywhere outside a full war cabal IMHO, but the war cabal can do work, there's a couple of reports in the Sons tactica proving that and I've had reasonable success with it in my local setting as well, far, faaaaaaar more than I had when I was previously running a Sons CAD and allied Daemons. I wouldn't place them above DG or WE, but they definatly belong above IW and EC, probably above NL as well. AL are a funny one that seem really, really strong on paper but I haven't seen them translate well into games. The TS are very easy to make a terrible list with, but the couple of strong options are surprisingly strong.

andysonic1 wrote:Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.

According to Nick, Magnus was MVP in the majority of the games he played. A lot of people are suddenly rethinking how to use him and that he might not be as bad as everyone first thought. I'll agree with you that TSons didn't win a GT (since I don't really consider Magnus and 3 princes a Sons list even if it technically is), but Magnus is what makes the list, everything else is there to support him and it works (apparently).

Wait, didn't they give back the 360 degree firing arc for a drake wit hthe latest faq that nullified the previous one?

As for the emp children, it's hard to tell if they're really worth it. Probably if you don't overinvest and just accept +1 ini, 6+++ and always swinging at least once with your fist or axe, you'll be ok. The relics are useable. Noize marines are passable. Yep, shredding sonic blasters are ok but they're not relentless, so salvo hurts a lot. I've found them still doing well in small 500-1k games cause sirens are still great and shredding sirens - doubly so. I got rid of blastmasters and took a squad of slaanesh spawns accompanying a biker lord with a d6 shot s8 ap2 relic. When you get more points, just get some extra formations or simply abuse the warband's obsec and a tiny survivability increase. Or maybe ally in some bl mages to get so needed anti-tank and psy shreiks. So that you have an almost army-wide ignore cover.

 koooaei wrote:
Wait, didn't they give back the 360 degree firing arc for a drake wit hthe latest faq that nullified the previous one?
.

Nope.

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (pg 52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a hull
mounted weapon, measuring all ranges and line of sight
from the barrel of the gun.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.

Anyone got a link to Nick's list? Although it doesn't sound like there'll be much in it apart from Magnus and the DPS.

OK, updating the list:

1. Death Guard
World Eaters

2. Black Legion
Alpha Legion
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Emperor's Children

3. Thousand Sons

4. Word Bearers

The Word Beares hit me a lot. Always liked their lore and on 40k like her religious tohc with all the cultists and demonic stuff..........
And their rules are rubbish.


About TS that doesnt use a full war cabal, I think the NEED demons to provide WD yes or yes. The TS are by lore the most powerful on magic and bla bla...but the rules not show that.

TS thread shows them fare pretty good with all the magic stuff they can pull. Yep, they're expensive but decently durable and fearless. Mages everywhere. I've more inclined to move them to 1 or 2 while Night lords and emp children could easilly go to 3. Word bearers are also 3 as they have one of the best cores - the respawning cultist formation and some neat summoning capabilities to bolster scoring. Alpha legion is in a wierd spot. They're great as a source of an allied cultist formation and...not much else. Iron warriors are also easilly in 1 as an allied cad but are not so hot as an army on their own. Don't know about black legion. Deepstrikes without scatter mitigation are 4 for me.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

jSewell wrote:So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)

I'd say (without much testing myself, just seeing people posting their own results and theorycraft):
1. Death Guard

2. Alpha Legion
World Eaters
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Black Legion
Emperor's Children

3. Thousand Sons

4. Word Bearers

In my humble opinion I think Thousand Sons is #1 or tie with Black Legion (Cabal Star). Not because TS has the best overall unit selections, frankly rubrics, occult termies are all pretty garbage. TS is #1 only because of Magnus, he is probably the most competitive and destructive model available to CSM.

I can back my statement up not only with my own play testing but with one of the most recent GTs, the Huzzah Hobby ITC GT. The final top table was between Nick nanaveti's Rehati War Sect vs. Eldar.

I myself runs Magnus with a minimal CAD along side Omniscient Oracle formation, had success against strong GSC, WS Gladius and Eldar armies.

Is there a video available or a battle report? Just curious how the Dps in the List were kitted out and which other units he used.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.

Just realized you said you're taking Magnus with Omniscient Oracle. Congrats, you're playing Chaos Deamons that include Magnus, not Thousand Sons.

Well that is your point of view, my main CAD is TS and Magnus is the warlord not Fatey. If I win a ITC tournament, Torrent of Fire registers the army base on the main detachment which is CSM (TS CAD or Rehati War sect for Nick).

Ok now if the question was asked in this way: Rank the CSM faction using the Chaos War band or must use fast attack/heavy choices when creating a CAD. Then yes TS will probably be in the bottom.

Has anyone tried out hte pandemic staff on a DP yet? Was considering taking it over the black mace:

- 15pts cheaper
- would on a 2+ with poison as you are s6 likely will get a re-roll
- makes you s8 and ap2, so 6 s8 ap2 re-rolling 1's against most troops at I7 attacks on the charge (concussive is somewhat redundant).
- Obviously useful ap5 poison 2+ flamer

not a daemon weapon of course but dunno, seems like quite a solid aretfact for a offensive prince.

what wa'll think

(i'm also sick and tired of rollin a freakin 1 on daemon weapons!! xd)

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.

Just realized you said you're taking Magnus with Omniscient Oracle. Congrats, you're playing Chaos Deamons that include Magnus, not Thousand Sons.

Well that is your point of view, my main CAD is TS and Magnus is the warlord not Fatey. If I win a ITC tournament, Torrent of Fire registers the army base on the main detachment which is CSM (TS CAD or Rehati War sect for Nick).

Ok now if the question was asked in this way: Rank the CSM faction using the Chaos War band or must use fast attack/heavy choices when creating a CAD. Then yes TS will probably be in the bottom.

And if I take a CAD with WE Kharn as my warlord and a Cabal Star, it means WE can be top tier. It's disingenuous to call the legion top tier when they have one model who's fantastic, regardless of your warlord choice or what Torrent of Fire records your score as. ITC also counts the faction with the most points in it as your main faction for scoring purposes unless that got changed for the specific tournament. IDK, just my opinion that if you want to say Thousand Sons is the best legion you need more Thousand Sons than any other army in your list. If you do or Nick did, then they're up there.

Speaking of ITC rules: how does it handle duplicate single unit formations like Lords of the Legion? Can you still only take two of them or does it not count because it is not technically a formation?

 andysonic1 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Magnus didn't do much for that list, it's a deamon flying circus with Magnus instead of other deamons. Thousands Sons didn't win a GT, deamons that included Magnus did.

Just realized you said you're taking Magnus with Omniscient Oracle. Congrats, you're playing Chaos Deamons that include Magnus, not Thousand Sons.

Well that is your point of view, my main CAD is TS and Magnus is the warlord not Fatey. If I win a ITC tournament, Torrent of Fire registers the army base on the main detachment which is CSM (TS CAD or Rehati War sect for Nick).

Ok now if the question was asked in this way: Rank the CSM faction using the Chaos War band or must use fast attack/heavy choices when creating a CAD. Then yes TS will probably be in the bottom.

And if I take a CAD with WE Kharn as my warlord and a Cabal Star, it means WE can be top tier. It's disingenuous to call the legion top tier when they have one model who's fantastic, regardless of your warlord choice or what Torrent of Fire records your score as. ITC also counts the faction with the most points in it as your main faction for scoring purposes unless that got changed for the specific tournament. IDK, just my opinion that if you want to say Thousand Sons is the best legion you need more Thousand Sons than any other army in your list. If you do or Nick did, then they're up there.

Speaking of ITC rules: how does it handle duplicate single unit formations like Lords of the Legion? Can you still only take two of them or does it not count because it is not technically a formation?

Rehati warsect is a TS formation and it's over 1500 pts. My TS CAD is pretty much the majority of the 1850.

Unless you specified the question like I posted earlier, who is to say Thousand Sons might not be the first CSM army to be top 10 at the LVO in a long time. No matter how 1 dimensional they are

 Latro_ wrote:
Has anyone tried out hte pandemic staff on a DP yet? Was considering taking it over the black mace:

- 15pts cheaper
- would on a 2+ with poison as you are s6 likely will get a re-roll
- makes you s8 and ap2, so 6 s8 ap2 re-rolling 1's against most troops at I7 attacks on the charge (concussive is somewhat redundant).
- Obviously useful ap5 poison 2+ flamer

not a daemon weapon of course but dunno, seems like quite a solid aretfact for a offensive prince.

what wa'll think

(i'm also sick and tired of rollin a freakin 1 on daemon weapons!! xd)

It is a cool pick but suffers from not being the Mace. It is simply a better MC hunter which is a good niche to have.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Speaking of ITC rules: how does it handle duplicate single unit formations like Lords of the Legion? Can you still only take two of them or does it not count because it is not technically a formation?

Lords of the Legion is a command choice, not a formation, you may not take them on their own outside of their legions decurion style detatchment, the same way that you can't just shove a unit of deathmarks into an army or take Belakor on his own. Basically, unless the unit in question is an Imperial Knight, single units are never standalone formations. There might be something out there, but I can't bring anything else to mind. Check if it has the little triple circle icon that signifies a formation in the top corner, if not, then you can't take it as a stand alone formation.

 Drasius wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Speaking of ITC rules: how does it handle duplicate single unit formations like Lords of the Legion? Can you still only take two of them or does it not count because it is not technically a formation?

Lords of the Legion is a command choice, not a formation, you may not take them on their own outside of their legions decurion style detatchment, the same way that you can't just shove a unit of deathmarks into an army or take Belakor on his own. Basically, unless the unit in question is an Imperial Knight, single units are never standalone formations. There might be something out there, but I can't bring anything else to mind. Check if it has the little triple circle icon that signifies a formation in the top corner, if not, then you can't take it as a stand alone formation.

I think you answered my question while not getting my question at all. I was wondering if it was legal to take, say, four Lords of the Legion Command choices in a CSM Legion detachment. Since you say they do not count as formations, then the answer should be yes, correct?

It would all be part of the same detachment as i would understand it?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
It would all be part of the same detachment as i would understand it?

There is no question about where you would be taking Lord of the Legion. They must be taken in one of the Legion Detachments. They cannot be taken outside of these Detachments.

ITC rules say the following:



This doesn't make explicit mention of Command selections, which are not Formations. Does this then mean I can take four Lords of the Legion in my Butcherhorde?

Yes it does. That is an example of a data slate unit. So you can take duplicates.

Great! That's all I needed to know.

So, Night Lords and a deep strike army. Decurion with Raptor, terminator annihilation and heldrake formations, and maybe a tzeentch prince, with a comm relay aegis. Heaps of reliably deepstriking low footprint assault melta, lots of ap3 flamers, potential for plenty of telepathy shenanigans, good flyer defense, but does black legion do it better? Any obscure forgeworld stuff that would ally in to its benefit?

 Badablack wrote:
So, Night Lords and a deep strike army. Decurion with Raptor, terminator annihilation and heldrake formations, and maybe a tzeentch prince, with a comm relay aegis. Heaps of reliably deepstriking low footprint assault melta, lots of ap3 flamers, potential for plenty of telepathy shenanigans, good flyer defense, but does black legion do it better? Any obscure forgeworld stuff that would ally in to its benefit?

With zero reliable deep strike scatter. You get Stealth and Night Fighting +1, why would you ever deep strike Night Lords and risk losing units to mishaps?

If it's really a problem then you bring some 2+ jink bikes with an icon of vengeance for those cramped deepstriking locations. Maybe with an attached sorcerer or lord with the -1 leadership relic or the stormbolt armor. That would add another unit for turn 2 target saturation. But with raptors you don't need to deepstrike right next to them anyway, your charge range is pretty generous with rerolls, and with that much melta the half range bonus isn't crucial either.

I like the world eaters and man do they hit hard! But they are so glass cannon that I can't see them being a top-tier tournament army. MAYBE if they went first they would have a chance to win almost any game against hyper-competitive lists (in Dawn of War deployment) but otherwise I can't see it happening. Let your opponent go first and many armies will put a huge dent in your list (then again, maybe I just fail 3+ saves like it's my job).

That being said, they're still better than any legion outside of Death Guard, and definitely have favorable matchups that Death Guard would struggle against.

So you're taking a warband instead of a Raptor Talon? What will an Icon of Vengeance do for your deep strikes? What will an attached sorcerer or lord with relics do for your deep strikes? Where are you getting charge rerolls? Again, you have nothing that will mitigate deep strike scattering, so the best laid plans can fall apart instantly.

Having a lot of trouble making a 1850 DG list I feel confident in. I'm on the fence between going full msu with a bunch of csm, chosen, havocs and bikes or taking some beefier options. The helldrake aux choice seems decent, especially with 3 squads of autocannon havocs walking around popping transports.