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I think the fortifications bring something unique to the game play... but I honestly don't like the Chaos Warband formation I have to take to get to them. Just bringing as many fortifications can surprise most opponents.... if you take as many battle cannon weapon batteries possible it's even more striking. At the end of the day optimizing to get the most of the reroll by taking all those battle cannons... you can end up with an army that can put out more pie plates than an IG tank army. However it's much more static and less flexible.
For IW I like additionally taking some Wall of Martyr bunkers for Havoc Squads and a Reactor for Obliterators... I think there is a lot of potential for strategy in how you layout your fortifications... take tank trap upgrades and keep Knights and drop pods away from your battle lines. Take the shipping containers and you can layout an obstacle that funnels your opponent into tighter clumps for your battle cannons to shoot at.
All that said, I want to see what people think of just taking multiple CADs with individual Obliterators filling out troop slots... HQ choices are generally worthwhile... so for each HQ and 2 Obliterators you get the fortification and lord of war slot from the CAD. The minimum CAD for IW gives us what we want and gives us such flexibility to take pretty much anything we might need in great numbers. Imagine 1 sorcerer, 2 individual Obliterators... Havoc squads and some fortifications ...repeated a couple more times. Or using the multiple minimal CADs to then take multiple Chaos or Renegade Knights supported by those scoring Obliterators.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/30 06:49:35
first because give to the AL a rule more or less clsoe to the one they already have is *****
But no stack? ok, what that means?
also, why not stack if they are different rules with different names?
It means you can't bring two cultist units back from one being wiped out. But you do get two chances to try and bring the single unit back. Stacking refers to receiving the same benefit (I. E. A returning unit) more than once.
Two dice rolls is benefitting from part of both rules.
You are stacking them in some way if you roll two dice.
No it isn't, what if you fail both rolls? You get zero benefits and have nothing to stack.
If you pass one roll you get a single benefit and have nothing to stack.
If you pass both rolls you would get two separate benefits which would in theory stack by RAW, but has been disallowed by the FAQ as this probably wasn't intended.
The dice rolls themselves aren't benefits. If we were talking about a re-roll it would be a different situation, but these are two separate rules.
Fun post, i'm reading the latest fabius bile novel and we all know he's um not great on the tabletop but...
If you were forced to take him in an army how would you build around him to make full use of him and his rules.
For traitor legions you are obviously gonna need to take a CAD with him in with probably 2 units of cultists.
I was thinking run him with a WE list to give one of the units of Khorne marines +1S so they are S6 on the charge with 4 attacks and a power fist is s10!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/30 10:11:30
WEs would be my first choice. All or nothing first turn rush, preferably with invisibility support.
DG or EC are good for their fnp options , but less punch and mobility. EC character with steed for outflank could be fun.
A nearby TS character could provide jump.
I love Fabius, he's my army's spiritual leader, but is so naff on the table. I facepalmed when the novel has his staff cutting through power armour like butter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Funny that in all cases you are wasting fearless.
How about hounds of abaddon ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/30 10:20:45
Go hounds and take a nurgle sorc. Curse of leper can give you fearless, hatred S8 T5 marines. WE are still more usable though since the hounds pretty much require a claw or a TS character. WE can get there on their own.
What if you get 20 alpha legion dudes with a mindveil character? They'll be shrowded 1-st turn too. Not quite as durable but they would get infiltrate (if you join the character later on - not a problem with a bike) and benefit from fearless.
andysonic1 wrote: For the World Eater Butcherhorde's charge reroll rule, do I get to reroll one of the die or do I need to roll both?
From the way it's worded, I assume both but could be wrong. Most rules will explicitly state "one or both dice" while this just says "reroll any failed charge rolls." Both dice are part of the roll.
Bach wrote: Didn't look like this has been covered but Should I attach Abaddon to a unit in the Raptor Talon, Mr. Abaddon gets to assault out of Deep strike, yes?
He'd only get it if the Raptor Talon Lord could be exchanged for Abbadon
Incorrect, Raptor Talon mentions units when listing benefits of the formation. When a IC attaches to a unit it becomes part of that unit. Thus it gains the formation rules. If the formation rules mentioned models instead of units then you would be correct.
Its all in the wording.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/31 05:37:44
Bach wrote: Didn't look like this has been covered but Should I attach Abaddon to a unit in the Raptor Talon, Mr. Abaddon gets to assault out of Deep strike, yes?
He'd only get it if the Raptor Talon Lord could be exchanged for Abbadon
Incorrect, Raptor Talon mentions units when listing benefits of the formation. When a IC attaches to a unit it becomes part of that unit. Thus it gains the formation rules. If the formation rules mentioned models instead of units then you would be correct.
Its all in the wording.
Joined ic don't get squad rules. Including the ones granted by formaions.
It came up when one of the guyz tried to run Calgar to charge out of reserves with sm vet formation - you know, the one where they can deepstrike without scatter, aren't penalized for a disoriented charge, can come on whatever turn they want without a roll and get 5 ppm power weapons cause sm.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/31 08:26:15
Bach wrote: Didn't look like this has been covered but Should I attach Abaddon to a unit in the Raptor Talon, Mr. Abaddon gets to assault out of Deep strike, yes?
He'd only get it if the Raptor Talon Lord could be exchanged for Abbadon
Incorrect, Raptor Talon mentions units when listing benefits of the formation. When a IC attaches to a unit it becomes part of that unit. Thus it gains the formation rules. If the formation rules mentioned models instead of units then you would be correct.
Its all in the wording.
Joined ic don't get squad rules. Including the ones granted by formaions.
It came up when one of the guyz tried to run Calgar to charge out of reserves with sm vet formation - you know, the one where they can deepstrike without scatter, aren't penalized for a disoriented charge, can come on whatever turn they want without a roll and get 5 ppm power weapons cause sm.
Im not doubting you, would not be the first time I have gotten a rule wrong. But as of yet no one has questioned my inclusion of IC's in my raptor talon. Do you mind letting me know where that ruling is located? I could have sworn I checked the base rulebook for it.
It's a very obscured one and comes out as a result of a couple rules spread out across the rulebook (but still not clear enough). It's also in the faq where they cleared things out a bit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/31 11:00:06
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can
they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only
apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment
or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must
appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent
Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can
they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only
apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment
or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must
appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent
Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
I can see how this would keep cross faction/army battle brother ICs from running a mock. However we are not talking about appearing on a certain turn as the limitation explains. The clarification states that the rules apply to models/units in the detachment or formation. Abbadon is a model that can be in the detachment (i.e. Speartip) so that appears to be satisfying the "detachment or formation" part of the FAQ clarification.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/31 16:24:44
No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
This.
He's in the speartip, so he gets the speartip rules. He's not in the Raptor Talon, so he doesn't get the Raptor Talon rules.
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can
they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only
apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment
or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must
appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent
Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
I can see how this would keep cross faction/army battle brother ICs from running a mock. However we are not talking about appearing on a certain turn as the limitation explains. The clarification states that the rules apply to models/units in the detachment or formation. Abbadon is a model that can be in the detachment (i.e. Speartip) so that appears to be satisfying the "detachment or formation" part of the FAQ clarification.
No, it doesn't, because the formation that grants the rule is the Raptor Talon, not the speartip. The required Raptor Talon Lord can do it (since he's part of the raptor talon formation and as such, get the rules), but not the Lord required for a warband (since he's not part of a raptor talon, even though they're all in the same meta formation) or anyone else who's not part of the Raptor Talon (since they don't have the Rapton Talon exclusive rules and therefore can't be part of their specil club).
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
Well there it is. That will teach me to read the BRBFAQ. Its to bad Ive done it in two games so far, feels terrible to inadvertently cheat someone, even if its just a game of models. I have to admit that hurts my BL list a great deal as I included a khorne lord froma world eaters CAD in my talon drops. Back to the drawing board. Thanks for clearing that up guys.
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can
they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only
apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment
or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must
appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent
Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
I can see how this would keep cross faction/army battle brother ICs from running a mock. However we are not talking about appearing on a certain turn as the limitation explains. The clarification states that the rules apply to models/units in the detachment or formation. Abbadon is a model that can be in the detachment (i.e. Speartip) so that appears to be satisfying the "detachment or formation" part of the FAQ clarification.
No, it doesn't, because the formation that grants the rule is the Raptor Talon, not the speartip. The required Raptor Talon Lord can do it (since he's part of the raptor talon formation and as such, get the rules), but not the Lord required for a warband (since he's not part of a raptor talon, even though they're all in the same meta formation) or anyone else who's not part of the Raptor Talon (since they don't have the Rapton Talon exclusive rules and therefore can't be part of their specil club).
Tthat's not what the FAQ posted says. Detachment -or- formation is pretty open ended, that language can be construed as giving more than one way that the detachment or formation rules could be applied.
Bach wrote: Tthat's not what the FAQ posted says. Detachment -or- formation is pretty open ended, that language can be construed as giving more than one way that the detachment or formation rules could be applied.
Not really mate, detatchment or formation is simply a catch-all for stuff that hands out free rules for the things it contains. Do the child formations of an Iron Warriors Grand Company (say, a Cult of Destruction for a fluffy example) gain ObSec because the Warband has it? No, that's not how it works, the things from a formation or detatchment get the bonii from that formation or detatchment.
It really is this simple: Is the model part of the Raptor Talon formation when you build your list? If Yes (eg, the mandatory Chaos Lord with the free jump pack or one of the Raptor/Warp Talon units the formation requires), you get the rules. If No (eg, literally anything that's not a part of a Raptor Talon formation at list creation), you don't get the rules. No if's, and's or but's.
This is almost as bad as the people who can't seem to understand that no part of a model may move more than its movement allowance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/31 18:23:10
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Rehati War Sect
650 Magnus
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
Iron Warriors CAD
HQ 60 Sorcerer (Force Sword)
Troops
50 cultists
70 Obliterator
70 Obliterator
Fast attack
170 Helldrake (Baleflamer)
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Let's call it rustic. Other websites are worse.
The brackets for the 6th Annual account for 5 rounds of play. Is it an elimination bracket, where players are actually removed after each round, or something else?
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Let's call it rustic. Other websites are worse.
The brackets for the 6th Annual account for 5 rounds of play. Is it an elimination bracket, where players are actually removed after each round, or something else?
It's offtopic, but I think if we can agree that free transports SM don't make Eldar balanced then we can agree a website shouldn't not be called bad just because there are still websites up from the nineties. If they have the money to put together a big tournament like this, they have $50 to hire a college student to make them a better website.
On topic: I have no idea how the bracket works. People in Round Two of the bracket aren't in Round One sometimes, it's very bizarre.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Rehati War Sect
650 Magnus
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
Iron Warriors CAD
HQ 60 Sorcerer (Force Sword)
Troops
50 cultists
70 Obliterator
70 Obliterator
Fast attack
170 Helldrake (Baleflamer)
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Hmm not too optimized, could of probably done better by bringing in daemons for more WCs.
Captyn_Bob wrote: No one is saying Abaddon can't be in the speartip. But he cannot benefit from the Raptor Talons formation bonus to charge after deep striking.
(He could still deep strike with some raptors T1 and not charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Magnus went 4-2 at my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this weekend.
Rehati War Sect
650 Magnus
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
310 Deamon Prince (Mark of Tzeetch, wings, armor, mastery lvl 3, spell familiar)
Iron Warriors CAD
HQ 60 Sorcerer (Force Sword)
Troops
50 cultists
70 Obliterator
70 Obliterator
Fast attack
170 Helldrake (Baleflamer)
This website is an abomination. I also can't tell anything from the bracket since it looks like someone screwed up making it. It doesn't show the above list going 4-2, it shows both CSM lists getting knocked out round one. Unless you've got the name of the person who went 4-2 or his list?
Hmm not too optimized, could of probably done better by bringing in daemons for more WCs.
The event in question limits lists to a single faction I believe.
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
5500 points
6000 points 
. Thanks for clearing that up guys.
