CSM Traitor Legions Tactica

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Darksider**

Guys i think you are talking past each other XD.

Slayer Fan you said that Princes are okay and aka_mythos only wanted to know why you thought that they are not good, cause he thought you find them bad and that they aren't good.

Btw: Any comments to my army list?

**andysonic1**

Darksider wrote:
Hey made a list with WE + Daemonkin. It's a MSU style army with the units i have and i wanted to know if it could compete in a Tournamentstyle meta.

Here's what is in my army. Everything has Mark of Khorne and VotlW.

WE Son's of Angron

Warband
Lord Jumppack with Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, MB
3 Terminators 3x Kombimelta + 1 Chainfist
Helbrute MM+ PF
2x5 CSM with 1 Melta each and a Rhino
5 Raptors 1 Melta + MB
5 Havocs with 2 Plasmarifle + Rhino

Aux
6x2 Spawns

Gorepack
3 Bikers with 2 Plasmarifle
3 Bikers (Champ has LC + PF)
4x5 Fleshhounds

That's 1844 Points.

I know some units are not optimal equipped, but thats the Figures i have and i can use at the moment.

List has over 60 Models, 10 Obsec Units + another 11 Units without Obsec (that's 21 Units for scoring Objectives).

Everything start on Foot and advances forward to the Enemy lines and if possible engage some Units in Closecombat. Rhinos + Brute score my backfield objectives.

Weakness is that i have no real punch and that i have no deathstar counter. Otherwise i have a lot of small Units and i can advance really fast the first turn.

What do you think?

You're going to be shot to death. If you want to protect that Lord, stick him in a unit of 10 hounds and forgo the turn one charge (smart enemies will deploy far enough away to deny it anyways). Put Rift Anomaly on the Helbrute. Drop a unit of Havocs and increase the two CSM units to 10 each, put flamers on them, stick the rhinos on backfield objectives and keep them there and use the CSM to claim midfield objectives, drop some spawn to allow you to do this. Drop melee weapons on bikes and put meltas on them, they arent fearless so they're better at being ranged annoyances. What is MB on the Lord supposed to be?

**aka_mythos**

Darksider wrote:
Guys i think you are talking past each other XD.

Slayer Fan you said that Princes are okay and aka_mythos only wanted to know why you thought that they are not good, cause he thought you find them bad and that they aren't good.

Btw: Any comments to my army list?

I'm not a fan of jump pack lords... When it comes to Chaos deep strike units they're all generally suicide units unless you really triple down and take some overwhelming numbers. How do you plan on using your lord? How do you plan on using your spawn? When it comes to Khorne lords, I find putting them on a juggernaut or bike and giving them either Khorne-dog or spawn as escorts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the "Chaos Warband" is one of the biggest challenges to our armies... it pushes a lot of point inefficient units that are best used in a suicide role. We really aerent left enough for other toys after fullfiling our prequisites.

Also beyond the Warband do WE have a Command Formation requirement? I know other legions have the lord that's required by the Warband, but the overarching formation also require a seperate HQ...

**Roknar**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
If there is some Legion's Daemon Prince that isn't good, I'd call it the exception and not the rule.

With all the available relics that's simply untrue. The weakest by far is the Black Legion Prince, but even then Hatred is helping with those sweet Daemon weapons...
Please explain to me how they aren't good?

Well, let's see...
1. World Eaters Princes get the Glaive, which should be self explanatory but I'll do it anyway. It is granting FNP and IWND and he didn't have Independent Characters to begin with. Plus he's got that free AW now which is nice but not too big a deal.
2. Death Guard Princes got a free FNP, and still have access to the Black Mace and the new Daemon Weapon that has poisoned attacks.
3. Emperor's Children Princes get DRUGS and some decent relics. Not my most favorite.
4. Iron Warriors Princes get the IWND 2+ armor and 6+++ for free. Also have some okay relics for melee like the armorbane axe or the less useful Power Maul one.
5. Night Lords Princes have one of THE best relics selections available to them, on top of the nice cover bonus.
6. Thousand Sons Princes have a Daemon Force Weapon and already proved themselves at some tournament recently with Magnus. I don't need to go further than that.
7. Black Legion Princes have a generic Hatred which helps with the potential lack of offense but otherwise have a generic EW relic. Definitely my least favorite.
8. Word Bearers Princes get the benefits to the Malefic table on top of already being Daemons, and have one of the best Warlord traits tables available to them.
9. Alpha Legion Princes are my second least favorite, but still have an icon relic when they can keep up with infiltrating Cultists, another 2+ relic, and a Daemon Weapon that grants additional attacks.

This supplement really gave the tools to make Daemon Princes a force to be reckoned with and it isn't like you face S10 weapons all the time.

I feel like you're downplaying hatred. In theory it's the difference between 66 and 88% chance to hit which is quite significant, but find hatred to be invaluable in practice. It makes huge difference.
YMMV of course, but more often than not, it's often the difference between hitting half and hitting with 90-100% of my attacks. Considering how nasty the black mace or the axe of blind fury are, that's pretty good.
And with T1 assaults you're prince isn't quite as exposed anymore. You'll still want invisibility and what have you though, which other legions aren't as reliant on (and thus cheaper), but when you get into assault a BL prince is pretty nasty.
And I've found that once they're in melee they're fairly safe considering there isn't usually much left to hit back.

**Slayer-Fan123**

aka_mythos wrote:
But all those are good things...

You're forgetting that the Daemon Prince was one of the only good things to use in the codex, or at least above mediocre. Now that there is free bonuses out of nowhere, they have their status elevated, see?

Anyone can agree that the Black Mace Nurgle Prince was pretty decent, but that's it. Now there's so many ways to play the Prince itself. I'm especially fearful of a Glaive Prince who really only fears Wraithknights.

**Darksider**

Tanks for your replies guys. =)

I will rework my list.

**aka_mythos**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
But all those are good things...

You're forgetting that the Daemon Prince was one of the only good things to use in the codex, or at least above mediocre. Now that there is free bonuses out of nowhere, they have their status elevated, see?

Anyone can agree that the Black Mace Nurgle Prince was pretty decent, but that's it. Now there's so many ways to play the Prince itself. I'm especially fearful of a Glaive Prince who really only fears Wraithknights.

I don't think you're reading what I've been writing closely enough.

Someone else said Daemon princes were bad.

I was skeptical.

I said Daemon Princes are good.

I then ask "how Daemon Princes are bad?"

I think Daemon Princes are good.

I just wanted to know if there was something I wasn't aware of.

I ask "what is bad?"

You answer with "what is good"...

I'm like "whaaaat?" I asked "what is bad?"

**pepsuber**

Would i be best to run berserkers from the maelstrom formation in MSU? Rhinos wouldn't work since the 2D6 opening move is for non vehicles..Id like to try units of 8 on foot to benefit from the 2d6, but 5 man units might be better. I have no idea though.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Leave the Berserker Marines at minimum and nothing else. Use them as a deterrent (though they aren't good at that) against Deep Strike units or outflankers.

**aka_mythos**

What I've heard when it comes to WE and Berzerkers... basic WE CSM are close enough to Berzerkers that WE players aren't bothering to take Berzerkers... it boils down to the added point cost of Berzerkers over a CSM squad make it more efficient to just take more CSM.

**SonsofVulkan**

Currently 2 TS Magnus lists made it to the top 8 of LVO.

Didnt I say Thousand Son is the strongest of all CSM factions?

**Vector Strike**

EC DP can get a daemon weapon too, but I find the Black mace to be superior (T instead of Ld test to remove from play, and also cvomes with the explosion...)

**andysonic1**

aka_mythos wrote:
What I've heard when it comes to WE and Berzerkers... basic WE CSM are close enough to Berzerkers that WE players aren't bothering to take Berzerkers... it boils down to the added point cost of Berzerkers over a CSM squad make it more efficient to just take more CSM.

It depends on how you're taking them. In a CAD, CSM are waaay better than Berzerkers. But in a Butcherhorde if you want to save points, taking the MoG is cheaper than a Warband if you keep the Berzerkers MSU. This allows you to put points into other units like Juggerlords + Spawn or even get some Heldrakes. The Warband needs to be kitted out to make any kind of effect, and if you aren't going to kit it out you're better off taking a MoG since those Berzerkers are going to be extra mean in CQC (red rain) + have the extra charge distance. It all comes down to how and where you're going to spend your points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SonsofVulkan wrote:
Currently 2 TS Magnus lists made it to the top 8 of LVO.

I'm sure when the other Deamon Primarchs start coming the other legions will get boosts as well. The Ultramarines will most likely start jumping up the charts after march.

**pepsuber**

It would be nice if we didn't need Magnus to get that far.....

As for WE, yea my idea was a cheap butcherhorde. If you take the minimum in berzerkers, no rhino or chainaxes at 5 men only, that pretty cheap. If i need bodies i was thinking khornate lost and damned. Something about a bunch of frothing maniac cultists that screams khorne to me. However, I'd rather not take the lost and damned by itself. That leaves auxilleries. Raptor talon loses out on rage if you Deep Strike then charge, plus your pretty likely to charge the enemy with your foot units before they can even come down. Thing is the khrone lord do i put him in a unit of berzerk and hope for the best? I feel spawn are wasted since they aren't nurgle spawn and already have rage.

**andysonic1**

Never run a lord with berzerkers. Never. Your lord needs wounds around him to take the heat while he rushes forward. Spawn fill that role no matter what mark they have. 3 wounds for 30 points, you can take up to 5. That is insane.

Take multiple lords in multiple units of spawn. The zerkers are there to fill gaps between your lords. Take empty rhinos to sit on backfield objectives. Everything else moves forward until the enemy is dead. Welcome to world eaters, prepare to get shot a lot.

**Jancoran**

Spawn are cool. They dont deal well with elite brawlers but they are otherwise superlative as a ball o wounds to accompany a bike commander or jump commander

**pepsuber**

Eh I only got 5, plus I can only take one lord in the Malestrom. I hate taking CAD, its become so boring for me.

**andysonic1**

Flesh Hounds > Spawn > Bikes > Raptors

Got any of the above?

**pepsuber**

Fleshounds no, and if i did i might as well play KDK which i will not do. Spawn just those 5, Bikes require the warband as do raptors plus i dont think a juggernaut can join the raptors

**andysonic1**

A juggerlord can join raptors, sure. Just can't hop over gak, have to go around it. Bikes / Raptors can be in the Warband or CAD sure.

**pepsuber**

But im taking malestorm but I mean im fine with warband if i have to.

Edit: With the 2d6 movement Possessed might be good now. Which means the Favoured of Chaos might be worth taking.

**koooaei**

What's wrong with the warband?

You want ranged support and bikers anywayz. Well, could live w/o termies or chosen. Regular csm are ok as a bit overly expensive but decent midboard point holders. They produce a frightening amount of s5 attacks - possibly with to-hit rerolls. There's not much stuff that wants to get close to them outside of hardy mellee units.

Not that zerkers with the formation rules are bad. They will more likely get there on the 1-st turn. Which is great. And they'll leave more place for ranged allies like an iron warrior obliterator cad.

**Latro_**

speaking of dP's i'v tried a DG one with the pandemic staff twice now and he's been great! real jack of all trades. S8 attacks, 2+ poision flamer is great especially combined with some of the nurgle powers.

**Covenant**

With the FAQ of the Alpha Legion: Is it worth to take the AL-Warband? It is only one unit of Cultists instead of two. 3+ of course is better than 4+. But I see the CSM troops or Bikes as a tax I do not want to use. In A CAD I could use some of them as Chosen. They are ObSec, the cultists are not... *sigh* ^^''

**koooaei**

1 chance at 3+.

**Covenant**

Yes. But is it worth to take the AL-Warband? Aren't there better options?

**Darksider**

You have no other Options other than the Warband if you want the AL Decurion with 3+ returning Cultists.

If you don't take the Decurion and only the Lost and Damned Formation your Cultists only come back on 4+ as always.

So is the Warband worth it? I can't say it depends what you want to do with your army. If you want to play msu and drown you oponnent in cheap replenishing cultists, than i would say yes. Take the Warband (everything min and only few upgrades) and the Lost and Damned as Aux.

**Drasius**

Covenant wrote:
With the FAQ of the Alpha Legion: Is it worth to take the AL-Warband? It is only one unit of Cultists instead of two. 3+ of course is better than 4+. But I see the CSM troops or Bikes as a tax I do not want to use. In A CAD I could use some of them as Chosen. They are ObSec, the cultists are not... *sigh* ^^''

2 min units of CSM is only 50 more points than your old min cultist tax used to be in a CAD. Just suck it up and take the warband.

**andysonic1**

koooaei wrote:
What's wrong with the warband?

The problem I've run into with making a WE Chaos Warband is that you have to take Termis and Bikes and a Helbrute/Havocs when all you really would want are those Bikes. The other units are going to be too slow or not mesh well with the army. Havocs can be great, but most of the time they aren't going to do much since they get no boosts to their shooting like IW. You want your entire army in the enemy deployment zone or midfield, and some cheap Rhinos in the back. When you try and split your forces too much with ranged in the back you end up with too little back there that gets blown off the board from deep strikers or FMC. The MoG kind of "fixes" this in a blunt kind of way. Your army isn't very tough, but it's mean in combat and your opponent will be stuck making the choice of which units they want to be killed by.

**Badablack**

The thing with havocs is they don't have to be back field long ranged squads. Chaos havocs can take any weapon they want, so you can throw 4 meltaguns on them and chuck em in a rhino to charge up with the rest of your list, or 4 flamers or whatever else.

Terminators can just be run as your standard combimelta 3-man termicide to deepstrike in and pop enemy parking lots.