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The best hard counter to Demons available to Necrons I think is a Renegades CAD featuring multiple Renegade Field Artilleries Batteries equipped with Heavy Quad Launchers.

The Heavy Quad Launcher is great against most any army and awesome against Demon summoning spam.

Against Demon FMC you can 'walk' the Heavy 4 Barrage over from a legal target to the FMC and hit it.

So the best way Necrons can take on Daemons is... to not use Necrons.
Awesome.
:/

 skoffs wrote:
So the best way Necrons can take on Daemons is... to not use Necrons.
Awesome.
:/

Necrons don't have either the Anti-Air or anti-psychic to bring them down. Another way to battle them is just outnumber them on the table and outscore them. We don't have many/tough/free ObSec units either. (Although, obviously, it's not as bad of a matchup with a Decurion or something like that, compared to the slaughtering of the pylonstar)

In other words, Necrons can't really deal with Demons, very easily. But, D.Eldar can't deal too much with TAU, Tyranids can't deal with D.Eldar, etc. etc.
I'm going to also say, that anything mentioned in the form of allies (like the riptide wing or the helldrake terrorpack) is not an answer to any demon list. It really is not. Otherwise TAU/Taudar/Eldar would be effective against it. No, a single riptide wing's shooting is absolutely zero when talking flying demons. Not to mention the laughable Helldrakes (that you mentioned as Anti-Air, so no baleflamers????). Ork Traktor guns?? Ork Traktor guns are going to bring down what? They're BS3 and 1 shot. 5 of them are more than 150 points. They're going to do absolutely nothing to flying demons. You can't include enough to actually threaten the demons and the more you include, the more useless the entire Orks detachment becomes versus absolutely every other list. Generally, Necrons can't deal with that list by killing it, or something like that. Even with all the allies in the world (That's quite proven, seeing how any other list is incapable of actually shooting the demons dead, even if it doesn't include the Necrons terrible shooting). If you can outmaneuvre or outscore them with some luck, using a lot of tough necrons, that's good. Otherwise, it's not a list you can build to counter. That's what this list does, it breaks the meta. Nothing can deal with it at this point with straight Dakka.

If there's something you should do with your lists to be able to play against demons is ignore better, buy even more useless weapons, bring even more tough models and necron shanenigans (VoD'S) etc. Demons can't remove Necrons, effectively.

How do you typically keep the pylons safe? A blob of warriors in front of it?

It's only a 3+ armor save. Kind of easy to take out the army's main gun.

 necr0n wrote:


Necrons don't have either the Anti-Air or anti-psychic to bring them down. Another way to battle them is just outnumber them on the table and outscore them. We don't have many/tough/free ObSec units either. (Although, obviously, it's not as bad of a matchup with a Decurion or something like that, compared to the slaughtering of the pylonstar)

In other words, Necrons can't really deal with Demons, very easily. But, D.Eldar can't deal too much with TAU, Tyranids can't deal with D.Eldar, etc. etc.
I'm going to also say, that anything mentioned in the form of allies (like the riptide wing or the helldrake terrorpack) is not an answer to any demon list. It really is not. Otherwise TAU/Taudar/Eldar would be effective against it. No, a single riptide wing's shooting is absolutely zero when talking flying demons. Not to mention the laughable Helldrakes (that you mentioned as Anti-Air, so no baleflamers????). Ork Traktor guns?? Ork Traktor guns are going to bring down what? They're BS3 and 1 shot. 5 of them are more than 150 points. They're going to do absolutely nothing to flying demons. You can't include enough to actually threaten the demons and the more you include, the more useless the entire Orks detachment becomes versus absolutely every other list. Generally, Necrons can't deal with that list by killing it, or something like that. Even with all the allies in the world (That's quite proven, seeing how any other list is incapable of actually shooting the demons dead, even if it doesn't include the Necrons terrible shooting). If you can outmaneuvre or outscore them with some luck, using a lot of tough necrons, that's good. Otherwise, it's not a list you can build to counter. That's what this list does, it breaks the meta. Nothing can deal with it at this point with straight Dakka.

If there's something you should do with your lists to be able to play against demons is ignore better, buy even more useless weapons, bring even more tough models and necron shanenigans (VoD'S) etc. Demons can't remove Necrons, effectively.

Lots of misinformation here.

1) Ork Tractor Guns are great against flyer lists since every wound is almost a guaranteed grounding. Obviously they are a specialized silver bullet and points spent are wasted points against non-flying lists (which I mention).

2) Baleflamers can hit FMC just fine.

3) Riptides with HBC and skyfire are a superb AA platform and solid overall against every single list in 40k.
.
.
.
4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.

Irrumare wrote:
How do you typically keep the pylons safe? A blob of warriors in front of it?

It's only a 3+ armor save. Kind of easy to take out the army's main gun.

A bunch of ICSs attach to the Pylons to make a Deathstar unit, you don't just let them sit there by themselves.

Though, I wonder,
If they were to FAQ Gauss Pylons tomorrow, letting them fire full BS against group AND flyer units, how would they do in the average army list?
Just "okay" or would they become the new auto-include?

col_impact wrote:

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.

Barrage weapons do nothing to FMCs unless you ground them or get first turn, but are good to take out summoned daemons. But they are far from a "hard counter"

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.

Barrage weapons do nothing to FMCs unless you ground them or get first turn, but are good to take out summoned daemons. But they are far from a "hard counter"

You can hit FMCs by 'walking' the barrage over from legal targets.

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.

Barrage weapons do nothing to FMCs unless you ground them or get first turn, but are good to take out summoned daemons. But they are far from a "hard counter"

You can hit FMCs by 'walking' the barrage over from legal targets.

Q: Do Blast weapons hit Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creatures?
A: No.

Only if they are gliding, which does not require "walking"

col_impact wrote:

2) Baleflamers can hit FMC just fine.

Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or Zooming Flyer be targeted by a Blast or Template weapon with the Skyfire special rule?
A: No.

(Nov 2016 Rule Book Errata)

The only thing a Heldrake with a Baleflamer can do to something that is Swooping is get d3 Vector Strikes at St7 Ap2 for Zooming over them.

Thanks for pointing out those FAQ items. I was working off the BRB and forgot to check the FAQ.

Renegades remain a solid choice as an inclusion into a Necron list for fighting Demons. Good barrage guns are generally very useful in the ITC and can curtail Demons ability to dominate the Maelstrom points.

It looks like the Riptide Wing is going to be the best option at taking down the flying Demon Princes.

 skoffs wrote:

Though, I wonder,
If they were to FAQ Gauss Pylons tomorrow, letting them fire full BS against group AND flyer units, how would they do in the average army list?
Just "okay" or would they become the new auto-include?

I've been waiting since 6th edition for them to say that. I would absolutely include the Gauss Pylons (3 of them) in my list tomorrow if they ever changed their mind on that. Unfortunately, it'll require a book update, since Forge World isn't going to change how sky fire + interceptor works.

Or maybe 8th edition will hold something better in store for them. But TBH, I doubt it. GW has a hard enough time selling flyers as is for whatever reason, and sky fire is generally overpriced and under effective as is. Making it cheaper and better won't help GW sell planes, and it seems like they've figured out that rules = sales.

Well, a simple update in 8th that would allow units to choose between regular and Skyfire at the beginning of the shooting phase could solve a lot of problems... so I guess we can hope for that... maybe.

So I've been following the thread while making notes of the more successful necron tourny lists and the problems necrons have against flying lists and come up with my own Pylonstar list hoping to address our shortcomings.



Though I'm a little unconvinced with only having 2 pylons. Thoughts?

^
The two Pylon version seemed to do well enough.
I'd question why there needs to be a Cryptek carrying the Solar Staff, though. Why not shave off some points and replace him with a Lord?

 skoffs wrote:
^
The two Pylon version seemed to do well enough.
I'd question why there needs to be a Cryptek carrying the Solar Staff, though. Why not shave off some points and replace him with a Lord?

Using Cryptek instead of Lord allows you to have majority toughness 7 for close combat.


I am wondering why you (n0xious) are choosing to run the Riptide Wing as Farsight Enclaves. The Earth Caste Pilot Array doesn't seem to be worth it considering you get to re-roll Reactor rolls with the Riptide Wing formation, or am I missing something?

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
^
The two Pylon version seemed to do well enough.
I'd question why there needs to be a Cryptek carrying the Solar Staff, though. Why not shave off some points and replace him with a Lord?

Using Cryptek instead of Lord allows you to have majority toughness 7 for close combat.

But with Anrakyr, Obyron, and the Lord in the unit with only two Pylons, wouldn't the majority toughness be T5?

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
^
The two Pylon version seemed to do well enough.
I'd question why there needs to be a Cryptek carrying the Solar Staff, though. Why not shave off some points and replace him with a Lord?

Using Cryptek instead of Lord allows you to have majority toughness 7 for close combat.

But with Anrakyr, Obyron, and the Lord in the unit with only two Pylons, wouldn't the majority toughness be T5?

True. But he could use the points saved from dropping the Farsight Enclave stuff and use another Cryptek instead of the Lord to carry the veil or drop the D Lord to add a 3rd Pylon.

Is it worth giving up PE to make sure the unit has T7?

Hey all, I'm going to be running Sentry-star in my next tournament. How does it ignore jink? I've been talking to the TO about the Pylons and he thinks the beam itself targets not the Pylons.

Here's the quote: "Can't hit zooming flyers because it doesn't roll to hit therefore it cannot be used to hit flyers. There is no reason that jink would not be allowed as you are targeting them with the beam. It also should not be able to shoot anything out of line of sight like some people want to do because it is not a blast weapon so it can't affect what it can't see. Not a terrible gun, though, if stuff is in range of it."

The beam targets points on the ground and not units. The units that wind up being affected by the beam aren't actually being targeted themselves and therefore cannot declare jink.

I wonder if a writing campaign would have any effect on Forge World?
Like, a mass one.
As in, get hundreds of people across the internet to send in letters, email, and call them on the phone.
"I would like to request a FAQ update to [book name here]. There are many rules that are unclear how they work in relation to other units in the game. The main rule book and codecies all got updates, when can we expect one from Forge World?"
I have a feeling if they get a deluge of people contacting them about it they won't be able to ignore it.

spacemarine542 wrote:
Hey all, I'm going to be running Sentry-star in my next tournament. How does it ignore jink? I've been talking to the TO about the Pylons and he thinks the beam itself targets not the Pylons.

Here's the quote: "Can't hit zooming flyers because it doesn't roll to hit therefore it cannot be used to hit flyers. There is no reason that jink would not be allowed as you are targeting them with the beam. It also should not be able to shoot anything out of line of sight like some people want to do because it is not a blast weapon so it can't affect what it can't see. Not a terrible gun, though, if stuff is in range of it."

Q: A beam attack does not target a unit – can you still Jink?
A: No.

From the FAQ

1) Ork Tractor Guns are great against flyer lists since every wound is almost a guaranteed grounding. Obviously they are a specialized silver bullet and points spent are wasted points against non-flying lists (which I mention).

I'd argue that even if you managed to ground something, it'd still be impossible to kill.(Magnus is rolling 2++ with rerolls and the DP's got 4++) There's not enough shooting in Necrons' arsenal to remove big guys. The only real benefit would be you could tarpit. But, honestly, if an opponent with Magnus sees you're running 15 Trakktor Kanons he's going to be really weary of your Wraiths' position and either take them out with other units or just avoid them. Even grounded, Demons can move a lot and they're just as dangerous, even more flexible with movement.

2) Baleflamers can hit FMC just fine.

This has already been answered. Although, arguably, even if they could, their damage would be at best laughable. I'd rather not shoot them to save my opponent the sheer satisfaction of making fun of me.

3) Riptides with HBC and skyfire are a superb AA platform and solid overall against every single list in 40k.

They are a superb AA platform, noone argues that. They're not enough to kill demons, that's what I'm saying. Plus, most people would roll Ion Cannons without Markerlight support (as in a riptide wing outside TAU). Even if you did run 3 HBC, they'd still not be able to kill Magnus and his friends. What I'm saying is, just because they have skyfire (which means they can hit them), doesn't also mean that they can kill them.

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.

This has already been answered.

With Traktor guns or Riptide Wing (HBC AA) the game plan would be to ignore/play around Magnus and remove a DP or more per turn and its associated Warp Charges.

With Renegade barrage guns the game plan is to ignore FMCs and play the mission/maelstrom while massacring any summoned units with barrage.

Anyone else annoyed we didn't get some sort of fix for Trazyn with the Gathering Storm books?
I mean, he made an appearance in Cadia, how hard would it be to give him a formation that made him functionally useful on the table as well?
>:/

Would be cool if we got our own triumvirate

The only way we're getting anything new is if they release a supplement for us... which is unlikely.
(though would fix a lot of the issues with the units that are garbage tier, eg. C'tan)

I have been told repeatedly that there are only 3 books in this series... though that doesn't prevent them from making more triumvirate boxes (Or releases like Magnus). A 4 box seems almost certain if only to complete the print that comes in the lids. It almost has to be chaos related, so I doubt it would be Necrons.
But everyone left out so far desperately want one.
Necrons... could include the Void Dragon, Silent King and 4 body guards? Either that, or something totally unexpected.
Orks want a new Ghazgkull and Mad Doc.
Tyranids need Doom of Malentai back.
Chaos are talking about a new Abaddon, Fabius BIle, and either Mortarion or Fulgrim. Fulgrim makes sense as a rematch between him and Guilliman seems like it would be popular.

So I have a really bad idea for a list. I present to you the Warriorstar


WS OL and Royal Court join the 20 man warrior blob providing 4+ RP with rerolls on 1s , +1BS/T (hopefully) from Szeras and an additional +1BS from the Stalker in range. Canoptek Harvest does Harvest things and as long as the OL is alive he can keep spawning Warriors/Scarabs.

Tell me how much this suc- err rocks!

I was thinking of dropping the Harvest for a couple of Ghost Arks and maybe a unit of Deathmarks instead.