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My Project Blog: Necrons, Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, and X-Wing "
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got into my pajamas, I'll never know." Groucho Marx
~A grammatically correct sentence can have multiple, valid interpretations.
Arguing over the facts is the lowest form of debate.
Klowny wrote:Ghost arks. So capacity is still 10. and only for warriors and characters. Boo. I cant remember if it applies to matched play or just the other two, (I'm 90% sure it does) but you dont have to take a full unit if you don't want, you just have to pay the points for a full unit regardless. So take a 9 man warrior unit chuck Szerath in there.
Is this possible, can anyone confirm? HQ and a 9 man squad of warriors in matched play? or just for the other two game modes.
bort123 wrote:ok... so... can the overlord cause a unit of immortals to tripple-hit on 5+ (with tesla carbines)?
"add 1 to the to hit rolls"
3+/5++, 4 tesla shots per turn, or 4 gauss when in rapid fire. Ignoring cover.
They're also 43 points base cost because they need to pay for both guns, or 34 with particle caster. You also can't take nebuloscope and shadowloom; if you take shieldvanes+shadowloom+tesla, they're 54 points per model. They're pretty bad honestly.
More survivable, more damaging than immortals, faster, better weapon options. Yes theyre expensive, overall better than a similar immortal unit?
Odrankt wrote: Thank you MoonlightSonata for the Necron pics. I am very hopeful for Necrons in 8th. We seem to work the same even if somethings have changed.
Kind of annoyed about match play though if we have to set aside points to activate RP. Be better off bring 2 units of warriors, immortals, flayed-ones, tomb blades etc then relying on RP if we pay to bring them back...
Yea reserve points apply to bringing in new units, we are just bringing models back to existing units. Literally clear as day, no ambiguity at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu-adom wrote: Anyone catch that you can't pull reserved Flayed Ones or Deathmarks out of a Nightscythe or Monolith?
How so? You have the option of setting them up in their tombworld, or in the other option the flayed ones have. Cant see whats stopping flayed ones or deathmarks from staying back on their tombworld and therefor allowing them to use the gate?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 13:02:31
Klowny wrote: More survivable, more damaging than immortals, faster, better weapon options. Yes theyre expensive, overall better than a similar immortal unit?
True. Not at all bad as I said, but probably a little better - either more expensive and more durable, or similar cost but similarly durable.
The +1 to hit is a good catch, we should ask about that. It makes a big difference to Deathmarks too.
Anpu-adom wrote: Anyone catch that you can't pull reserved Flayed Ones or Deathmarks out of a Nightscythe or Monolith?
Yep.
For a first turn charge set it up 12 inches away, deploy 20 flayed ones 3 inches away from it and then use their movement to go 5 inches towards the enemy. Then they only need to make a 4" charge with overwatch casualties coming from the back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 13:04:32
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Iirc, in matched play you always have to take min sized units, but in the other game modes you can take "understrength" squads.
Yea i had a quick look through the community site, couldn't find the page about understrength squads. :/
Fingers crossed we can. I remember it mentioning that you pay the points for the full squad, even if you dont have the models. The only game type you pay points for things though is matched play, the rest don't use the points system.
Klowny wrote: More survivable, more damaging than immortals, faster, better weapon options. Yes theyre expensive, overall better than a similar immortal unit?
True. Not at all bad as I said, but probably a little better - either more expensive and more durable, or similar cost but similarly durable.
The +1 to hit is a good catch, we should ask about that. It makes a big difference to Deathmarks too.
And the fact they are super fast compared to footslogging immortals. I do love me speed crons. And the 12 TB i have already
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 13:06:13
For the Flayed Ones and the Deathmarks it doesn't describe where they are as on the Tomb World... instead, in a "charnel pocket dimension" and a "Hyperspace Cubbette".
The rules for the Nighscythe and Monolith reference the Tombworld.
I'm imagining building myself a multi-level displayboard where the top is a tombworld, there are two little pockets underneath... one is like the inside of an empty Holodeck, and the other... well, Khorne would book a vacation in the other.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 13:08:41
My Project Blog: Necrons, Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, and X-Wing "
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got into my pajamas, I'll never know." Groucho Marx
~A grammatically correct sentence can have multiple, valid interpretations.
Arguing over the facts is the lowest form of debate.
Anpu-adom wrote: For the Flayed Ones and the Deathmarks it doesn't describe where they are as on the Tomb World... instead, in a "charnel pocket dimension" and a "Hyperspace Cubbette".
The rules for the Nighscythe and Monolith reference the Tombworld.
It says you can set up in the charnel pocket or hyperspace cubbette, but the eternity gate stipulates you can set up any number of Crons on their tomb world.
It gives you versatility. Realistically, you dont need to gate the flayed ones, as they have their own deepstrike, so you can just make sure they are 9" away and then move the 5" then charge the 4". It maters for deathmarks more though, as you can either set them up in their own dimension thing to use the etheral interception rule, or on the tombworld if you want to gate them in.
EDIT: Just re-read it, realistically it doesn't matter for either, as using the gate is a waste of the gate as both can deepstrike themselves, so dont need the mobility. So while you can gate flayed ones/deathmarks, its a waste of a gate activation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 13:12:17
My Project Blog: Necrons, Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, and X-Wing "
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got into my pajamas, I'll never know." Groucho Marx
~A grammatically correct sentence can have multiple, valid interpretations.
Arguing over the facts is the lowest form of debate.
Anpu-adom wrote: For the Flayed Ones and the Deathmarks it doesn't describe where they are as on the Tomb World... instead, in a "charnel pocket dimension" and a "Hyperspace Cubbette".
The rules for the Nighscythe and Monolith reference the Tombworld.
It says you can set up in the charnel pocket or hyperspace cubbette, but the eternity gate stipulates you can set up any number of Crons on their tomb world.
It gives you versatility. Realistically, you dont need to gate the flayed ones, as they have their own deepstrike, so you can just make sure they are 9" away and then move the 5" then charge the 4". It maters for deathmarks more though, as you can either set them up in their own dimension thing to use the etheral interception rule, or on the tombworld if you want to gate them in.
EDIT: Just re-read it, realistically it doesn't matter for either, as using the gate is a waste of the gate as both can deepstrike themselves, so dont need the mobility. So while you can gate flayed ones/deathmarks, its a waste of a gate activation.
FO Deep Strike is at the end of Movement, so you need a 9" charge. Still doable, though.
I'm working on a full unit analysis, but right now I'm already seeing great combos. I'm really, really disappointed in Tomb Blades though. ~50 points for a single model? Ugh. Yes, they're buffed - extra wound, faster, double the shooting (Gauss in RF range is going to be brutal), but min units will have a rough time benefiting from RP and it'll be all but impossible to give them the Cryptek buffs (though you can follow them around with a CCB for a Res Orb.
Anrakyr + Lych Guard is going to be a pretty solid Deathstar. Anrakyr, Cryptek, Warscythe Guard = 3+/5++ W2 with THREE attacks each hitting ON TWOS. I'm a bit miffed that my Shieldguard feel worse now but even they will be rocking a rend -2 attack and an invuln in melee.
Flayed Ones with Imotekh are going to be brutal. Hitting on 2+, rerolling wounds? Thanks! Again can try to pop in Anrakyr and a Cryptek for an extra attack on each and 5++ against shooting.
Doomsday Arks are the new hotness, quote me on that. Bubble Wrap is a thing and they're all but impossible to instagib. I'm thinking of going infantry heavy with 2 Doomsday Arks.
I'll do a big thought writeup later, work now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit:
Oh by the way, we lost allies. THIS SUCKS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 14:14:53
CthuluIsSpy wrote: For you, maybe. I hated the idea of allies, especially when you're playing necrons.
Why should I have to work with filthy illogical meat sacks?
Because I kitbashed a Necron Renegade Knight and now it does nothing other than sit on a shelf. Not even anything in the army to proxy it as. Allies were also our source of hard anti-tank (though now Doom Scythes and Doomsday Arks can fulfill that well), so it's a bit more limiting.
It's not the end of the world, I just don't think it had to go. Especially while Chaos and Imperium armies still get to pal around with all their different forces. Yeah they have less rules sharing but it still sucks that they have all these options while we're limited to ourselves. I figured we'd at least still be able to ally with Tau since that's even in the fluff.
My Project Blog: Necrons, Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, and X-Wing "
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got into my pajamas, I'll never know." Groucho Marx
~A grammatically correct sentence can have multiple, valid interpretations.
Arguing over the facts is the lowest form of debate.
Anpu-adom wrote: Monoliths can't move units already on the board. Sadness.
Overall, I'm very happy with where we are sitting.
Yeah, I didn't like that change either.
Necrons are supposed to be good at teleporting, why do they have to ride around like peasants? :(
A good change is though is that gloom prisms are now good. Instead of being restricted by a pathetically short range (3", really GW?), they can now be used anywhere on the table, much like how other factions can use psykers.
That is nice, I like that.
I'm thinking spyders might be seeing a lot more play due to how much utility they provide. There doesn't seem to be any restriction on what they can take, so you can have one decked out with a gloom prism for anti-psy, a fabricator claw to keep our (fragile) vehicles alive, and a (two!) beamers for fire support.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 14:50:38
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Can anyone see any reason to take the Obelisk over 3 Annihilation Barges? It still seems really bad. Sigh, one day it'll be usable...
Stuff which looks particularly good:
-Anrakyr; same overlord stuff, but get +1S (S8 warscythe!), +1W, bonus bubble of attacks to a unit, Tachyon Arrow is actually pretty good (hit on 2+, D6 damage) and Mind in the Machine is still pretty funny. It's particularly funny if you overheat a plasma and slay a tank instantly.
-Warriors; actually pretty good. Masses of shooting and lots of bodies for not that many points.
-Immortals; work out slightly easier to kill that the same points of warriors, but also surprisingly deadly shooting. 67.5 shots kills a W10 3+ tank; it's a lot, but at half range that's only 40 odd Immortals
-Doomscythe; I'm half on the fence with these guys, but actually they're quite deadly. For 220 points, you get S10 shooting and 2 tesla destructors, all of which can target different units. Only downside is they're quite fragile, hard to maneuver and degrade. Still, they seem pretty sweet.
-Wraiths. Really strong units. Not much more to say - they just got better. I think they'll be more balanced considering the multi-wound weapons flying around, plus the amount of CC attacks some armies get, but they look formidable to me
-Heavy Destroyers; yes, I'm eating my words a bit here, but they're very durable, relatively accurate and put some deadly lascannon shots down range. Hidden in a unit of Destroyers, they're probably a necessity.
I'm still puzzling it over, but I think the key is in mass Immortals somewhere...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: It would only be an 8 inch charge because you get the free 1 inch. So slightly less than a 50/50.
You have to be more than 9" away, so it's still a 9" charge even with the bonus inch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 14:47:34
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: It would only be an 8 inch charge because you get the free 1 inch. So slightly less than a 50/50.
No, because 8+1=9 and you need to be 'more than' 9" away.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
- Glad every one of the "staves" the HQs carry have at least AP-2. Staff of Light is actually semi decent now!
- I'll pass on Imotekh. Again.
- Welp, not much point in taking a Destroyer Lord any more now, is there? We had ONE GUY who was good at combat. Now he's gotta have a gun-staff to be of any worth.
- I kinda like new Szeras being able to give out his buff to multiple units, but am really angry they kept it as random. Seriously, how does a "Master Techromancer" not know whether he's about to make a unit of Warriors better at shooting or better at punching until he's right about to do a thing?
- Orikan lost his save reroll... that sucks.
- Anrakyr's buff is no longer just for Immortals! Stick this guy with a bunch of choppy infantry, give them both the Pyrrhian & MWBD buffs and they should be decent blenders. (and he's S8 with his WS!)
- Zahndrekh much less appealing now that his buff is random.
- Wow, no Veil anymore? And Obyron can only use his mantle if Zahn is on the field? That is crap.
- Trazyn still not worth taking. Pity. We just saw him do amazing things in the Rising Storm books, and none of it is represented on the table top.
- CCB is only 2 wounds more than the named Overlords? I mean, yeah, it's got QS, but...
- If Mortal Wounds can't be save via invuln, there's not really much point to taking Shield on Lychguard who are bodyguards for characters, is there. They still can't mix wargear either...
- Deathmarks lost their ability to wound on a 2+ ... damn.
- Can't remember, is it possible for FOs to charge the turn they arrive from reserves via the new rules? They seem alright, but are a little too expensive to field en mass.
- Interesting, both Praet melee options are identical. Only difference now is what kind of shooting you want to give them.
- Stalkers no longer takeable in units of 3, huh? Moves decently fast, though. Still helps with shooting (though not as well as it did before).
- C'tan seem usable.
- Transports are... I dunno.
- Doom Scythe. I'll probably pass, unless I can figure something out for them.
- Wraith traded Rending for AP-1? Hmm...
- Scarabs could be decent. No farming any more, though.
- Tomb Blades still great... just much more expensive.
- Poor Destroyers, So expensive now. Is there anything that can give them +1 to hit anymore? Stalkers now only grant a thing they've already got naturally. (the least they could have done was give Heavies a bonus wound or a 2+ armor save)
- Yikes, Spyders don't seem very good. (oddly enough, Scarabs appear to be better at shooting than they are?)
- They are going to need to FAQ "Hovering" otherwise all five weapons on a Monolith can fire at the same target.
- That's a lot of potential damage an Annihilation Barge can pull off... on a really flimsy body. Less so for a Doomsday.
- I see no point for the T-C'tan. They really should have at least given it back a form of it's T-Slide from Apocalypse. Or at least two powers to use.
- T-Vault. Lots of shots. Lots of Wounds. Okay.
- Obelisk seems situational at best. Maybe you can drop it into the enemy deployment zone as a bomb?
Overall, feeling really underwhelmed. Just looking at what we've got now and comparing it to what I have on hand... I'm not sure what I'm going to be able to make that's any good. Especially compared to some of the stuff the other guys are getting. How are we supposed to compete with that?
Eyjio wrote: Can anyone see any reason to take the Obelisk over 3 Annihilation Barges? It still seems really bad. Sigh, one day it'll be usable...
Stuff which looks particularly good:
-Anrakyr; same overlord stuff, but get +1S (S8 warscythe!), +1W, bonus bubble of attacks to a unit, Tachyon Arrow is actually pretty good (hit on 2+, D6 damage) and Mind in the Machine is still pretty funny. It's particularly funny if you overheat a plasma and slay a tank instantly.
-Warriors; actually pretty good. Masses of shooting and lots of bodies for not that many points.
-Immortals; work out slightly easier to kill that the same points of warriors, but also surprisingly deadly shooting. 67.5 shots kills a W10 3+ tank; it's a lot, but at half range that's only 40 odd Immortals
-Doomscythe; I'm half on the fence with these guys, but actually they're quite deadly. For 220 points, you get S10 shooting and 2 tesla destructors, all of which can target different units. Only downside is they're quite fragile, hard to maneuver and degrade. Still, they seem pretty sweet.
-Wraiths. Really strong units. Not much more to say - they just got better. I think they'll be more balanced considering the multi-wound weapons flying around, plus the amount of CC attacks some armies get, but they look formidable to me
-Heavy Destroyers; yes, I'm eating my words a bit here, but they're very durable, relatively accurate and put some deadly lascannon shots down range. Hidden in a unit of Destroyers, they're probably a necessity.
I'm still puzzling it over, but I think the key is in mass Immortals somewhere...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: It would only be an 8 inch charge because you get the free 1 inch. So slightly less than a 50/50.
You have to be more than 9" away, so it's still a 9" charge even with the bonus inch.
I think the loss of rending to the Wraiths is a pretty big blow, I'm not sure if they are still that strong, though they are more durable.
Destroyers have 3w each now, making heavies 4w is a bit excessive.
D Lords, like most necron characters, appear to now be buff dispensers. Stick them near destroyers for a good time.
I don't think destroyers are as bad as people are making them out to be.
They are still mobile, they still deal good damage, they are a source of multiple wounds, they are actually pretty tough and they can receive buffs. They are certainly expensive, but you are getting something for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 15:07:04
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Eyjio wrote: Can anyone see any reason to take the Obelisk over 3 Annihilation Barges? It still seems really bad. Sigh, one day it'll be usable...
Stuff which looks particularly good:
-Anrakyr; same overlord stuff, but get +1S (S8 warscythe!), +1W, bonus bubble of attacks to a unit, Tachyon Arrow is actually pretty good (hit on 2+, D6 damage) and Mind in the Machine is still pretty funny. It's particularly funny if you overheat a plasma and slay a tank instantly.
-Warriors; actually pretty good. Masses of shooting and lots of bodies for not that many points.
-Immortals; work out slightly easier to kill that the same points of warriors, but also surprisingly deadly shooting. 67.5 shots kills a W10 3+ tank; it's a lot, but at half range that's only 40 odd Immortals
-Doomscythe; I'm half on the fence with these guys, but actually they're quite deadly. For 220 points, you get S10 shooting and 2 tesla destructors, all of which can target different units. Only downside is they're quite fragile, hard to maneuver and degrade. Still, they seem pretty sweet.
-Wraiths. Really strong units. Not much more to say - they just got better. I think they'll be more balanced considering the multi-wound weapons flying around, plus the amount of CC attacks some armies get, but they look formidable to me
-Heavy Destroyers; yes, I'm eating my words a bit here, but they're very durable, relatively accurate and put some deadly lascannon shots down range. Hidden in a unit of Destroyers, they're probably a necessity.
I'm still puzzling it over, but I think the key is in mass Immortals somewhere...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: It would only be an 8 inch charge because you get the free 1 inch. So slightly less than a 50/50.
You have to be more than 9" away, so it's still a 9" charge even with the bonus inch.
I think the loss of rending to the Wraiths is a pretty big blow, I'm not sure if they are still that strong, though they are more durable.
It's better in the long run. Before you would have to fish for 6s otherwise you'd just bounce off of Tacticals. Now everything being -1 (and wounding on 3s against most things in the game) is more reliable damage output. Harder to wound on 2s, but you'll never wound on 6s either. They're better all-arounders.
Overall, feeling really underwhelmed. Just looking at what we've got now and comparing it to what I have on hand... I'm not sure what I'm going to be able to make that's any good. Especially compared to some of the stuff the other guys are getting. How are we supposed to compete with that?
Seems indeed a bit underwhelming.
Maybe we will go nowhere and quit Necrons for another army...
Former moderator 40kOnline
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Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Is there anything in other armies that looks particularly insane though? I'm seeing most other armies lose game breaking stuff and get flavorful abilities instead. I don't see much that's just a hard counter to us other than maybe pure Knight armies (and we may have the tools to combat those depending on build).
I wouldn't mind it so much, but several of the playtesters specifically said it was the most balanced it's ever been. Is it though? Really? Then why are so many Necron things incredibly underwhelming when compared to other factions? It's one thing to lose options that nobody took, but things like the veil of darkness and solar pulse have been in the Necron codex since it was created - why remove them now? I just don't understand. I look at marines and go "okay, this has shuffled up in cost, this down, this unit got more expensive but better". I look at Necrons and go "this got worse... and this... and this... this is trash... this is useless, etc". Even stuff which might be balanced like the Monolith has had its whole character changed from unstoppable death machine to very stoppable, hilariously inaccurate super-Leman Russ. It's just so disappointing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote: Is there anything in other armies that looks particularly insane though? I'm seeing most other armies lose game breaking stuff and get flavorful abilities instead. I don't see much that's just a hard counter to us other than maybe pure Knight armies (and we may have the tools to combat those depending on build).
Basically any of the Tyranid MCs. Genestealers and hormagaunts too, they hit us and there's nothing we can do to stop it. All marine armies are now super shooty; a twin assault cannon Razorback is T7 W10 3+ with 12 S6 AP-1 shots. We've got nothing even close to that good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 15:22:58
1. Unless I'm understanding it wrong, the monolith can't port a unit the same turn it arrives from deepstrike right?
Also ya, all it weapons trained on 1 target looks pretty devastating.
2. Everyone saying the destroyer lord is bad, it's pretty cheap for the stats it has, 135 pt beat stick that buffs destroyers isn't bad.
Plus it has the fly special rule so it can cut flyers to ribbons in close combat.
3. The profile on the annihilation barge was disappointing, but good god does it dish out a lot of hits. 146pts for 8 str7 telsa shots and 3 str6 tesla is a lots of potential hits. Since tesla averages 1 shot to 1 hit.
I'm actually looking forward to the crons in this edition. Not sure how to build them and the named characters being meh, doesn't bother me since I never really liked necrons having non-ctan named characters to begin with(Goes against my preferred 3rd edition fluff).
Psienesis wrote: While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Before the game starts the Deceiver can redeploy a monolith to within 12" of the enemy. You can then bring in an assault unit from the tombworld on your first turn, then move and charge.
Yep, that's a really solid combo at the moment. Expensive, but good.
You'll want to bring a unit that can do well by itself, but I don't think any of our melee units "need" to be accompanied by Characters so much as they're just better whne they are. I'm thinking Praetorians are a good pick, since the redeploy + 10" move gives them a 1" charge if you go first, and only marginally longer if they go first and run away.
Okay, so,
My Will Be Done says a units gets +1 to hit ("add 1 to the Advance, Charge and hit rolls of that unit").
Is just for combat to-hit, or would it extend to shooting, too?
Because if so, Destroyers are BS10 equivalent again (3+ to hit naturally, +1 makes it 2+, rerolling 1s).
Actually, anything given MWBD shooting at a Stalker's target would be able to as well.
Also worth noting: Stalker lets any Necron unit, NOT JUST INFANTRY, reroll their 1s for shooting. Granted, MWBD only applies to Infantry, but letting Doomsday Arks and Death Scythes reroll their 1s against key targets is going to be pretty damn handy. (Not to mention Tesla Destructors that can potentially turn 1s into more 6s!)
Looking like Stalkers might have to be stocked up on.
The profile on the annihilation barge was disappointing, but good god does it dish out a lot of hits. 146pts for 8 str7 telsa shots and 3 str6 tesla is a lots of potential hits. Since tesla averages 1 shot to 1 hit.
The pt costs are odd numbers. This will not properly work. We have seen this in WMH at MK1. Then PP decided to downgrade the numbers severely making MK2 well playable. Those odd numbers are garbage to the quare.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Everyone, keep in mind that they are going to be doing codexes as well. This is our "get us by" White Dwarf release... perhaps not thrilling, but certainly better than what the Warhammer Fantasy armies got with the release of Age of Sigmar.
Who knows what or when we will get our codex, but we will get one.
My Project Blog: Necrons, Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, and X-Wing "
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got into my pajamas, I'll never know." Groucho Marx
~A grammatically correct sentence can have multiple, valid interpretations.
Arguing over the facts is the lowest form of debate.
12,000 
~4100
~1660
Imperial Knights
Orcs and Goblins
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
High Elves 
4000+
Thousand Sons 4000+
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
