Old INDEX Necron 8th Tactica - link to new codex tactics thread in OP

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**Grimgold**

Eyjio wrote:
I decided that Grimgold did some excellent mathhammer earlier, so I've made the chart below for our shooty infantry:

This is the points per wound for each unit against the target at the top (where Wx means any number of wounds greater than 3). I've done it against what I think should be fairly common profiles: GEQ, Orks, Necron Warriors, MEQ, Primaris, Terminators (no invuln though, foolishly), Plague marines, etc. I missed off the gauss flayer arrays for the Doomsday Ark as I felt they'd often be out of range or targeting other things. Still, there's a few takeaways from it:

1) Heavy destroyers are, point for point, the best all around anti-tank unit we have. Seemed fairly obvious, but it's now here in black and white.
2) Annihilation barges are quite good fire bases. I modelled them as moving with a gauss cannon, so 153 points and -1 to hit for the gauss, and they're pretty good, usually a little better than Immortals. I think I'm actually sold on them being pretty good on this basis.
3) Deathmarks are bad on paper. Sure, they can snipe out characters, but the chance they actually kill one is pretty slim. I dunno, maybe deep striking and sniping make up for their shortcomings, but they seem pretty mediocre.
4) Destroyers are almost as point efficient as a death ray on its own. That surprised me quite a lot actually, I'd pretty much written them off against vehicles, but it turns out that high rend really helps them. I dunno, maybe I'll try them out.
5) Doom Scythes are quite good all rounders due to their mix of guns.
6) The Triarch Stalker isn't entirely fairly treated as I haven't accounted for the melta rule at half range. On this basis, it's the worst AT, but realistically you're more taking it for the unit buff anyway. The fact it degrades is absurd though - it's not good to begin with!
7) Immortals are fantastic. Tesla easily outguns Gauss between 12"-24", so the question becomes what range you think you'll be engaging at instead of one being superior. Either way, the question is now mass Warrior bodies for survivability or generally better Immortals?

I like that The colors make it really clear, so up next is effective hit points, which means I'll need to model quantum shielding, once that's done we can figure out our four quadrant map of our units.

**col_impact**

I think Spyders are going to be really popular for the Gloom Prism.

They go well with Scarabs (which will also be popular) and vehicles.

Spyders can hilariously repair flying vehicles.

**Shadar_Logoth**

buddha wrote:

- our anti tank. Doomscythes, heavy destroyers, and doomsday arks, all perform the duty just very expensive point wise. Necessary picks in almost any list just a tough tax to swallow.

Keep in mind everyone's anti-tank is more expensive, now. HYMP Sides, for instances, are over 200 points a pop. It's by design, to make MCs and Tanks more overall resilient and competitive for the points sink.

**Requizen**

Punisher wrote:
Bargelord isn't a character. Why do people keep thinking it is? No where in its stats does it say it's a character.

Oh you're totally right. That... Sucks. Pass.

**changemod**

I'd like to point out Forge World might do a great job of plugging our tactical holes.

Acanthrites bring jump troops who all carry a Melta weapon, plus the sentry pylons and the tomb stalker/sentinel, the latter of which has a huge exile gun.

Hell, the Pylon might even be our chance at a truly great Lord of War unit.

**Requizen**

Yeah but we'll have to wait a few months to get our FW rules.

Wondering if our Elite, Heavy, or Fast Attack slots are good enough to spam in their respective Detachments, or if sticking to the CAD (Battalion) is still best.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh wait, Doom Scythes have to move and Death Rays are Heavy. Eeehhhhh... That sucks a bit but still a good gun.

**changemod**

Requizen wrote:
Yeah but we'll have to wait a few months to get our FW rules.

Wondering if our Elite, Heavy, or Fast Attack slots are good enough to spam in their respective Detachments, or if sticking to the CAD (Battalion) is still best.

Well I have a pure destroyer cult 2000 point list from 7th, so I'm fielding that whether it's actually good or not.

I have 18 regular, 12 heavy and 2 lords to work with.

**skoffs**

... of course.
We get our Faction Focus after all the leaks are out.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/31/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-necrons/

Most of this is insulting, knowing what we do, now.
Anrakyr may very well be one of the best HQ, but saying his best ability is the one that comes standard on all Overlords?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Wondering if our Elite, Heavy, or Fast Attack slots are good enough to spam in their respective Detachments, or if sticking to the CAD (Battalion) is still best.
Well I have a pure destroyer cult 2000 point list from 7th, so I'm fielding that whether it's actually good or not.

I have 18 regular, 12 heavy and 2 lords to work with.

What (if any) force org would that combine into?

**changemod**

skoffs wrote:
... of course.
We get our Faction Focus after all the leaks are out.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/31/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-necrons/

Most of this is insulting, knowing what we do, now.
Anrakyr may very well be one of the best HQ, but saying his best ability is the one that comes standard on all Overlords?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Wondering if our Elite, Heavy, or Fast Attack slots are good enough to spam in their respective Detachments, or if sticking to the CAD (Battalion) is still best.
Well I have a pure destroyer cult 2000 point list from 7th, so I'm fielding that whether it's actually good or not.

I have 18 regular, 12 heavy and 2 lords to work with.
What (if any) force org would that combine into?

Originally it was 2 destroyer cults each consisting of a Destroyer Lord, 3 units of 3 destroyers and 1 heavy, plus one unit of three heavies. The only difference was wargear on the two lords.

Now? Either The fast attack based FOC or one fast attack FOC and one heavy support FOC depending on exact layout of the force.

Give the price hike I'd need a 3000 point game to fit them all, so some stripping down will be needed.

**Drakmord**

I'm glad that people are fiddling with the Deceiver combo!

Night Scythes were promising, for providing more fire support. Load 10 GB Immortals and a Cryptek into each one and -- alas, they don't count as embarking, so the Immortals and Crypteks can't come out at the same time. They also have to wait until Turn 2 to hop out, if they want to be in range. Annoying, but perhaps one can live without Crypteks? One unit could also come through the Monolith on Turn 2, if the Night Scythe can't get into range or is needed elsewhere on the board.

Another idea I had was to Advance up the board with Immortals carrying carbines instead of blasters, and Overlords instead of Crypteks. 2x10 Immortals advancing while each benefiting from "My Will Be Done," giving them +1 to Advance and their hit rolls.

Tesla Carbines can fire after Advancing (with a penalty, I believe, which is negated by MWBD) and depending on how the +1 to hit is meant to be interpreted, trigger their Tesla on a 5+. (Edit: they wouldn't be able to trigger it on a 5+ in the same turn they Advanced, as the penalty and bonus would cancel each other out.)

These units would be able to close the gap fairly quickly, perhaps in a turn or two, without really being that vulnerable; if the enemy is pointing weapons at your Immortals, they aren't pointing them at the melee thing you've spent so much getting into their deployment zone.

--

Destroyers are certainly good, but I feel that they cost too much for their expected role of Infantry and light vehicle munching, which the Deceiver slingshot is already quite happy to do. Heavy Destroyers cost more, obviously, but they provide higher Strength shooting for tougher vehicles, MCs, and so on. Whichever one chooses, they have a 10" move, and can provide support to the slingshot in short order.

I feel the same about Tomb Blades, though I'm also biased against them because... I think they look silly. I never liked the Decurion, anyway!

**Grimgold**

I might have to stop making fun of quantum shielding, because it's actually not bad. Admittedly it's a perverse incentive like 7th ed grav, where the opponent is punished for having a good stat, so I think it's poor game design but I'll take what I can get. so here is the google sheet.

My personal favorite wtf comparison, a ghost ark having more effective wounds than a monolith because of quantum shielding:

We for all intents and purposes have holtzman shields from dune, the slow knife penetrates and all of that.

Fixed per draco, added rounds to kill.

**Draco765**

Double check some of the point costs, Warriors are only 12 points each now.

**Grimgold**

Fixed and added rounds to kill since cost per EW is only half of the story.

**Klowny**

Grimgold wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
I decided that Grimgold did some excellent mathhammer earlier, so I've made the chart below for our shooty infantry:

This is the points per wound for each unit against the target at the top (where Wx means any number of wounds greater than 3). I've done it against what I think should be fairly common profiles: GEQ, Orks, Necron Warriors, MEQ, Primaris, Terminators (no invuln though, foolishly), Plague marines, etc. I missed off the gauss flayer arrays for the Doomsday Ark as I felt they'd often be out of range or targeting other things. Still, there's a few takeaways from it:

1) Heavy destroyers are, point for point, the best all around anti-tank unit we have. Seemed fairly obvious, but it's now here in black and white.
2) Annihilation barges are quite good fire bases. I modelled them as moving with a gauss cannon, so 153 points and -1 to hit for the gauss, and they're pretty good, usually a little better than Immortals. I think I'm actually sold on them being pretty good on this basis.
3) Deathmarks are bad on paper. Sure, they can snipe out characters, but the chance they actually kill one is pretty slim. I dunno, maybe deep striking and sniping make up for their shortcomings, but they seem pretty mediocre.
4) Destroyers are almost as point efficient as a death ray on its own. That surprised me quite a lot actually, I'd pretty much written them off against vehicles, but it turns out that high rend really helps them. I dunno, maybe I'll try them out.
5) Doom Scythes are quite good all rounders due to their mix of guns.
6) The Triarch Stalker isn't entirely fairly treated as I haven't accounted for the melta rule at half range. On this basis, it's the worst AT, but realistically you're more taking it for the unit buff anyway. The fact it degrades is absurd though - it's not good to begin with!
7) Immortals are fantastic. Tesla easily outguns Gauss between 12"-24", so the question becomes what range you think you'll be engaging at instead of one being superior. Either way, the question is now mass Warrior bodies for survivability or generally better Immortals?

I like that The colors make it really clear, so up next is effective hit points, which means I'll need to model quantum shielding, once that's done we can figure out our four quadrant map of our units.

Thanks for this guys! Any chance we can see the damage output of a Monolith?

Grimgold wrote:I might have to stop making fun of quantum shielding, because it's actually not bad. Admittedly it's a perverse incentive like 7th ed grav, where the opponent is punished for having a good stat, so I think it's poor game design but I'll take what I can get. so here is the google sheet.

My personal favorite wtf comparison, a ghost ark having more effective wounds than a monolith because of quantum shielding:

We for all intents and purposes have holtzman shields from dune, the slow knife penetrates and all of that.

Fixed per draco, added rounds to kill.

Does this take into account Living Metal Grim? Wraiths are the most durable unit we have still?

**Grimgold**

This assumes all damage is done in one round. Living metal and repair protocols are hard to factor in because it forces it over multiple rounds, so think of it as a worst case scenario.

as for wraiths being the toughest, lychguard used to be tougher with old repair protocols and a 3++, but with both of those gone away, yeah wraiths all the way.

**luke1705**

This monolith nonsense sounds amazingly fun. I doubt it'll be very good, but I am 100% down to try this 2k list:

Zandy
Obyron

Deceiver
Nightbringer
5 Scytheguard

6 wraiths
6 wraiths
6 wraiths

Monolith

(Can you tell what I played in 7th edition?) Best of all this is just two detachments and 5 command points (counting the 3 freebies we get)

**Klowny**

Requizen wrote:
Punisher wrote:
Bargelord isn't a character. Why do people keep thinking it is? No where in its stats does it say it's a character.

Oh you're totally right. That... Sucks. Pass.

good catch, I wonder why they did that. Annoying. Was shaping up to be a good unit. Maybe we can ask, they might have made a mistake?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimgold wrote:
This assumes all damage is done in one round. Living metal and repair protocols are hard to factor in because it forces it over multiple rounds, so think of it as a worst case scenario.

as for wraiths being the toughest, lychguard used to be tougher with old repair protocols and a 3++, but with both of those gone away, yeah wraiths all the way.

It says wraiths have 4w, but they only have 3, was this just a misprint or were they calculated @ 4?

great job though, puts a good perspective on things.

**taetrius67**

Someone said no more allied renegad knight with necrons but what prevent to take the formation with one lord of war ? Or i have miss something.

**Grimgold**

Fixed wraith, and in matched play all detachments must share at least one keyword, So you can't have chaos and necrons paling up.

**Draco765**

taetrius67 wrote:
Someone said no more allied renegad knight with necrons but what prevent to take the formation with one lord of war ? Or i have miss something.

In the leaked photos I found under Matched play - Choose armies, each unit in the ARMY must have at least one of the same faction keyword(s), unless unaligned.

The Renegade Knights are Chaos and Questor Traitoris Faction, neither which fits Necron or any of the <dynasty> keywords Necrons have.

Which sucks, I bought the full Renegade knight box kit just for my Daemonkin and Necrons to have one each.

**Klowny**

Just made a big game hunter patrol list @ 1850 with the sole intent of killing high W models.

Up in the army list page.

And people said we don't have reliable ways of killing the big guns

Didn't realise how big the points increase on flayed ones got. 420 points for a maxed out squad..... sadness.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I'm more excited about not only the Staff Of Light doing stuff in melee, but the Stormlord actually kicking ass in melee as well.

**Klowny**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm more excited about not only the Staff Of Light doing stuff in melee, but the Stormlord actually kicking ass in melee as well.

Yea its nice that it can do that now and were not forced to take warscythes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a whole though, how nice is it to be able to build any list that comes into your head, without the boring restrictions of the decurion.

Want fast crons? take the Fast Attack detachment.

Want big guns? take the Heavy detachment.

Want lots of CC death? take the Elite detachment.

The plethora of options we now have is tremendous.

**Arachnofiend**

I've been lurking this forum for months and finally joined just to ask...

Does anyone have good ideas on how to move around Anrakyr? I want to make a Flayed Ones list with him but I'm a bit puzzled on how to move him around the battlefield; he doesn't have a <Dynasty> tag so you can't move him with any of our transports. I'm guessing the Deceiver is the best option? DS the Flayed Ones normally and use the Deceiver to drop Anrakyr next to them?

**wuestenfux**

Well, I've seen the first army lists in the corresponding section of the board. Not really convincing if you ask me.
What are our strengths now?

Firepower using Gauss or Tesla or a combination of both.
Fast movement using flyers or the Monolith for teleport.
Durability using RP.
Close combat using Wraiths and whatnot.

**Denegaar**

Arachnofiend wrote:
I've been lurking this forum for months and finally joined just to ask...

Does anyone have good ideas on how to move around Anrakyr? I want to make a Flayed Ones list with him but I'm a bit puzzled on how to move him around the battlefield; he doesn't have a <Dynasty> tag so you can't move him with any of our transports. I'm guessing the Deceiver is the best option? DS the Flayed Ones normally and use the Deceiver to drop Anrakyr next to them?

Right now looks like that, the Deceiver is the only way until Anrakyr gets a Dynasty in a book, if any. It's a pain, but it makes sense fluff-wise.

Off topic - I'm holding on a Praetorians/Lychguard box, and I'm not sure what to build... both models look really good

opinions?

**skoffs**

Klowny wrote:
Want fast crons? take the Fast Attack detachment.

Want big guns? take the Heavy detachment.

Want lots of CC death? take the Elite detachment.

The plethora of options we now have is tremendous.

Thing is, what do those detachments give you?

**CthuluIsSpy**

skoffs wrote:
Klowny wrote:
Want fast crons? take the Fast Attack detachment.

Want big guns? take the Heavy detachment.

Want lots of CC death? take the Elite detachment.

The plethora of options we now have is tremendous.
Thing is, what do those detachments give you?

Command points? Special detachment rules don't seem to exist anymore.

**Klowny**

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I've seen the first army lists in the corresponding section of the board. Not really convincing if you ask me.
What are our strengths now?

Firepower using Gauss or Tesla or a combination of both.
Fast movement using flyers or the Monolith for teleport.
Durability using RP.
Close combat using Wraiths and whatnot.

Our CC is beastly, albeit pretty expensive, max flayed ones is 420 points, but all our vehicles, the things needed to kill the big stuff (they have all our big guns) are super durable now, look through the graphs before, they will last, and put out lots of hurt.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
skoffs wrote:
Klowny wrote:
Want fast crons? take the Fast Attack detachment.

Want big guns? take the Heavy detachment.

Want lots of CC death? take the Elite detachment.

The plethora of options we now have is tremendous.
Thing is, what do those detachments give you?

Command points? Special detachment rules don't seem to exist anymore.

Elites have most of our CC, so if you want to go CC heavy you use that, without as much infantry tax.
All our big guns will be in Heavy, so taking a heavy detachment means you can field crons much more eaisly. 7th meant you needed formations that were cost prohibitive, a decurion when you didnt want it, and even a CAD was a tax in many ways. Now you can try out as much of our army as you want. Weve always been the jack of all trades, so why not explore them.

Everyone gets 3 command points minimum, affecting rerolls can be big, but even if we dont get many extra, can still do heaps of cool stuff.

Not all matched play games have to be competitive, theres a whole new meta out there to explore frands, lets go test it out!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im interested in seeing what the 7th ed power builds will fare like. Build a reclamation legion and D-cult (disgustingly expensive now)/canoptek harvest.

Would be cool to see how it fared (maybe terribly?)

**Moosatronic Warrior**

Twin heavy Gauss seems to be the best fit for the stalker now. It's only 10pts more than the meltas and I think it's worth it for the extra range. QSheilding is best at long range where massed dakka is less likely to reach it, and you will have more targets in range to apply its buff against.

Seems like a good choice to combine with the Doomsday Ark for two QS tanks that can sit at range and work on high T targets.

EDIT: Don't know if this was covered in peoples mathammer but 10 Tesla Immortals buffed by "my will be done" will put an average of 20 wounds on T4 models (more with stalker buff) ouch.