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Yeah, no idea what they were thinking there. That's gonna have to be Errata'd

I would not hold my breath for an errata fix. I think we will be struck with thses rules for about a year before they get around to a Necron codex. The only errata fixing they will do is like making it so you can only take one Celistine. Remember how the Mono had to snapfire its gauss and we all thought it must be a typo?

We will have to find a way to make this work as it is now.

Looking around Dakka there seems to be a lot of love for big guns that drop d6 damage. After mathhammering we've already seen that RP and QS are some of the strongest things about the current list. When you combine those two facts I think there's some real juice in a list that's almost entirely either 1W with RP or QS. A list like that takes a whole lot of the value out of anything that does multiple wounds , and especially d6. Any vehicle with QS has just over a 40% average chance to completely ignore the damage done by a Dd6 weapon.

So that's Warriors, Immortals, Flayed Ones, and all the QS vehicles. with appropriate character support. I think it needs to be play-tested at the very least. The core of that list probably looks like this:

Overlord w Staff
Cryptek
2 x 20 Warriors
1x 10 Immortals
3x Doomsday Ark

Which is just under 1500 pts.

20 more warriors, another Cryptek, and a Ghost Ark brings it up to about 2000. Flayed ones are also a possibility for sure. or Scarabs for bubble wrap, even if it is outside the initial parameters of the list. Stalkers and ABs would work too, especially the latter for some movement.

It's slow like molasses, for sure, but I think there's a lot of lists that will have a lot of trouble putting any kind of dent in it, and attrition can win a lot of games when your firepower doesn't really degrade significantly over the first three turns. I think the trick is to not provide the opponent with anything to shoot that he can get full value out of his HW shooting at.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...

Spoiler:

Orikan

20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals

3x H.Destroyers

T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA
DDA

2000pts, 4CPs

Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.

Might be a good idea to take a second Stalker. That's your only force multiplier, so it'll be targeted immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh.
Actually, thinking about it,
A HGC Stalker is 181 points.
2 HDs are 150 points.
That's not too much difference.
They've got the same amount of firepower, but one's got QS and the other has multi wound RP.
...
Who's more survivable?

Here is a list using the Deceiver to port Stormlord and Orikan over 12 away then the FO pop with enough bodies to get their bonuses and still try to take on something juicy.

Type Name Cost
HQ 1 Stormlord 228
HQ 1 Orikan 143

Troop 19 Warriors 228
Troop 10 Tesla Imm 170
Troop 10 Tesla Imm 170

Elite 1 Deceiver 225
Elite 1 T Staker 171
Elite 20 Flayed Ones 420

Heavy 1 DoomArk 203

Fast 3 Scarb 39

Total
1997

Thoughts?

 skoffs wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...

Spoiler:

Orikan

20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals

3x H.Destroyers

T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA
DDA

2000pts, 4CPs

Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.

Might be a good idea to take a second Stalker. That's your only force multiplier, so it'll be targeted immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh.
Actually, thinking about it,
A HGC Stalker is 181 points.
2 HDs are 150 points.
That's not too much difference.
They've got the same amount of firepower, but one's got QS and the other has multi wound RP.
...
Who's more survivable?

Stalker is T6 W10 3+ with QS and living metal
HDs are T5 W6 3+ with RP.

The Stalker is tougher and has more wounds and retains both guns until the bitter end (although the BS degrades). I think the Stalker is tougher and most games will survive longer because the RP on the HDs are a little harder to benefit from than on 1W models (when there's only two of them especially). They only get to use it if one HD dies and not the other, and then you get a full wound guy back on a 5+. I think a lot of players will work pretty hard to make sure you don't get that chance.

Think about it this way. That Stalker will get a predictable 1W back every turn, so 6 over the game if it survives. The HDs would have to walk the knife edge of one-dead-one-not and make their 5+ RP roll twice to manage the same wound recovery. I don't have a mathematical model, but I suspect the former is a lot more reliable than the latter, and even moreso the more d6 weapons in the opponents army (not good for the HDs at all and actually maybe good for the Stalker).

HDs in squads of three are probably a more even comparison because they'll likely get more chances to actually roll RP over the course of a game.

That's my two cents anyway.

skoffs wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...

Spoiler:

Orikan

20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals

3x H.Destroyers

T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA
DDA

2000pts, 4CPs

Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.

Might be a good idea to take a second Stalker. That's your only force multiplier, so it'll be targeted immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh.
Actually, thinking about it,
A HGC Stalker is 181 points.
2 HDs are 150 points.
That's not too much difference.
They've got the same amount of firepower, but one's got QS and the other has multi wound RP.
...
Who's more survivable?

Depends? The stalker is pretty survivable, but is hard to claim cover on. Same speed until really hurt, and better in melee. The Stalker isn't... bad? Except for the Heavy + moving thing which still sucks.

Pyrothem wrote:Here is a list using the Deceiver to port Stormlord and Orikan over 12 away then the FO pop with enough bodies to get their bonuses and still try to take on something juicy.

Type Name Cost
HQ 1 Stormlord 228
HQ 1 Orikan 143

Troop 19 Warriors 228
Troop 10 Tesla Imm 170
Troop 10 Tesla Imm 170

Elite 1 Deceiver 225
Elite 1 T Staker 171
Elite 20 Flayed Ones 420

Heavy 1 DoomArk 203

Fast 3 Scarb 39

Total
1997

Thoughts?

It's a fun gimmick, for sure. If you fail that charge though... you're going to be in tears haha.

Yeah, I wouldn't risk a charge on deep striking FOs if it was a crucial matter.
I'd more use them for back field disruption
"Uhoh! A bunch of choppy guys just appeared behind your Dev squad! Better divert your attention there otherwise you'll be in trouble!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?

A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...

I hate to be a naysayer, but I'm feeling fairly discouraged.

I really don't believe you can create sufficient durability in a rule that can be hamstrung so easily.

The loss of gauss doesn't help either. It's not that we lost gauss, it's that we lost an edge. The mechanics of 7th made it so that our lack of high strength shooting volume wasn't so glaring. Gauss made our volume viable, while our durability kept our volume up.

I'm hoping that we can find ways to create a sustainable force, but a few points I would make are:

(These are just my opinions)
I don't think the named characters benefit enough to justify their cost. I feel like they're a points trap.
It hurts us very badly that crypteks and overlords have no RP

I feel we may have to resort to increasing our damage output (as much as possible) to aid our survivability. This means Ddarks, monoliths, maybe even doomscythes.

I also think the triarch stalker is going to be huge in negating the -1 to hit that happens when you move the Ddark and doomscythe.

I'm not sure, but I think each stalker can boost the other. Is that right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?

A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...

Yeah I can see it. Even with the threat of hordes you could screen with cheap scarbs and pull out of combat and let those DArks let those d6 to d6 wounds fly. Save 10 points on the T Staker for the heatray and get some of the flamer fun all the cool kids are raving about.

Another quick thing with DDA vs HD's.

The DDA is more survivable, so while it sits backfield, it doesnt have to be completely isolated and removed from the rest of the army. It can just be behind everything, but close enough so the flayer array can start to hurt stuff that goes into no-mans land.

But the main point is that against non vehicle units, it does way more damage. A maxed squad of terminators will be decimated by it, it does D6 hits against squads >10.

Its a niche advantage, wont be used much, but there may be situations in the future where it will come in handy.

Pyrothem wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?

A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...

Yeah I can see it. Even with the threat of hordes you could screen with cheap scarbs and pull out of combat and let those DArks let those d6 to d6 wounds fly. Save 10 points on the T Staker for the heatray and get some of the flamer fun all the cool kids are raving about.

For Hordes, how bad IS the Tesla Destructor, anyway?
In a list that uses a couple Stalkers, you'd have a much better chance at rerolling into a 6.
If their their main downside is lack of AP, against (assumed poorly armored) hordes that's not really as much of an issue, is it?

punisher357 wrote:

I'm not sure, but I think each stalker can boost the other. Is that right?

No, two stalkers can buff shooting against two separate units, but its not cumulative on one target.

punisher357 wrote:

I also think the triarch stalker is going to be huge in negating the -1 to hit that happens when you move the Ddark and doomscythe.

I'm not sure, but I think each stalker can boost the other. Is that right?

The stalker's targeting relay buffs all necron units shooting at a thing so yes that includes other stalkers. The buffs don't stack or anything though.

Sadly you do not get to mitigate the -1 to hit modifiers in the game with re-rolls on 1s, as in if you shoot at flyers or smoke launcher vehicles or whatever you don't re-roll on 1s or 2s because the 2 is subtracted down to a 1. In the rule book next to the psychic and shooting phase rules is a sidebar blurb about re-rolling and that says you do all re-rolling BEFORE you apply modifiers, so you would roll then re-roll your 1s then apply the negative 1 to hit that would reduce more results down to 1. Sucks for both targeting relay and destroyer's hardwired hatred.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...

Orikan

20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals

3x H.Destroyers

T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA
DDA

2000pts, 4CPs

Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.

Don't you need another HQ?

So my first battle is against IG troop spam. He is bringing 11 heavy slots, I initially thought it was going to be lots of tanks, but I know he is itching to spam his heavy weapons teams. I cant build a list I am happy with TBH, I have so much stuff I want to try out! I'm going with a Gauss bomb alpha strike.

Here's my list so far:



That way I have 7/11 units in rapid fire range T1. Good rolls means my T1 alpha strike is putting out 112 gauss shots, a particle whip, a SoL, D3 mortal wounds from the front-line. Wait, I thought we were a slow army

Solid front-line that bypasses the weaknesses of the phalanx, strong midline with alot of tesla and a heavy backline in the stalker and DDA.

Its anti-horde for sure, and not a CC threat in sight (besides the Deciever) and wont handle a Nid monster mash at all. But even against non-horde armies, this will shred most of anything.

I really don't believe you can create sufficient durability in a rule that can be hamstrung so easily.

It's really not easy at all to drop 20 Warriors in one turn. The volume of fire on the table has gone down substantially. Also, you can still use 5th edition shenanigans like anchoring your blobs behind LOS, like a Mono.

The loss of gauss doesn't help either. It's not that we lost gauss, it's that we lost an edge. The mechanics of 7th made it so that our lack of high strength shooting volume wasn't so glaring. Gauss made our volume viable, while our durability kept our volume up.

Getting -1 (or-2 ) AP for basic weapons on troops more then makes up for this. Now we are wounding light to medium vehicles on 5s and heavy vehicles on 6s, and dropping their save at the same time.

It hurts us very badly that crypteks and overlords have no RP

The fact that Character can no longer be shot at makes this largely a non issue. For the most part, the only damage they will take is a random wound here and there from snipers (which living metal will neutralize), or maybe some in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?

That's a really good point. The HDs do still have their re-roll 1's to hit (and potentially 1s to wound), but the HGC Stalker can pass a similar ability on to others.

I was originally envisioning HDs but I might have to re-tool back to HGC Stalkers.

 skoffs wrote:

Pyrothem wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?

A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...

Yeah I can see it. Even with the threat of hordes you could screen with cheap scarbs and pull out of combat and let those DArks let those d6 to d6 wounds fly. Save 10 points on the T Staker for the heatray and get some of the flamer fun all the cool kids are raving about.

For Hordes, how bad IS the Tesla Destructor, anyway?
In a list that uses a couple Stalkers, you'd have a much better chance at rerolling into a 6.
If their their main downside is lack of AP, against (assumed poorly armored) hordes that's not really as much of an issue, is it?

It takes an annihilation barge about 5 rounds to clear out a 30 termagant swarm assuming synapse, which points wise is pretty far from our worst at it, but immortals are better, but that might be the necron motto for 8th. With MWBD and a 10 man squad it would take immortals about a round and a half to skunk a 30 man blob.

Are HD's better off in groups of Destoyers now, anyway? Seems like a much better way to protect them and ensure RP rolls, and with splitfire they are going to be fine shooting different targets.

Also, the new Gauss Cannon is pretty solid. 24+ Heavy 2 S5 AP -3 D3. For 64 points a pop they don't seem bad at all.

I could definitely see a D-Lord with staff and RO running with a could beefed out 5xD 1xHD squads certainly being a thing.

I don't know why people are STILL complaining about our characters not having RP. They get a wound back a turn for free instead.

If my calculations are correct a full unit of 5D + HD in range of a D-Lord unloads on a T6-8 3+ save multi wound mode they are dealing about 9.32 wounds on average.

That seems pretty decent.

As Destroyers get no bonus from Stalkers, I'd say it's probably best to go an either/or route with those two units.

If taking Stalkers, you should probably bring a bunch of fast shooters (duh).

If Destroyers, fast CC would probably be good (Scarabs, I guess?)

 skoffs wrote:
As Destroyers get no bonus from Stalkers, I'd say it's probably best to go an either/or route with those two units.

If taking Stalkers, you should probably bring a bunch of fast shooters (duh).

If Destroyers, fast CC would probably be good (Scarabs, I guess?)

Why would they get no bonus? The Stalker Array gives a bonus to all necrons. Destroyers are necrons.
Edit : Oh I see what you mean. Yeah, that's a weird overlap.

 skoffs wrote:
So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?

A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...

Stalkers lose 1 BS from moving and firing. They're also less accurate and degrade over time. They find it much harder to take cover, whereas Heavy Destroyers, as infantry, can go into almost anything and get a 2+. Heavy Destroyers have fly if they get locked in combat; stalkers have to either fight or forfeit shooting. Heavy Destroyers can sit on top of ruins, where Stalkers can't really do anything with ruins at all. You pay more for a unit which, in essence, does less.

I like stalkers, but there's very good reasons to pick one over the other. Stalkers are quite good though.

I'm also not entirely sure why people are rating the Doomsday Ark so highly. If you move at all, the main gun becomes hilariously ineffective against vehicles. The only thing a stationary Doomsday Ark is better at killing than Heavy Destroyers or Stalkers is hordes, which we don't really struggle with. I guess there's an argument there for the durability, but then you've also got to consider that assault armies with deep strike capabilities (most of them) or highly mobile armies will render your main anti-tank silent on the first or second turn. The Ark seems to me to exist in a world where it's great if you have a very open board against a slow assault army, and worse than the other options otherwise. Bear in mind that against the vast majority of tanks, D3 S10 AP-5 shots is the same as 2 S9 AP-4 shots on average, so you're paying 53 points to become more durable and get some extra gauss flayers. I'll try them out to test my theory, but they just seem worse than the other options. I would rather take a Heat Ray/THGC Stalker for fewer points.

Eyjio wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
So if I understand this correctly,
For 31 points more than two Heavy D's, HGC Stalkers get the same movement, the exact same shooting, better CC cababilites, all on a more survivable platform,
AND they provide a slight buff to the rest of your army's shooting?
...
Remind me again why we're supposed to be taking Heavies?

A list with 2 Stalkers and 2-3 Doomsday Arks is looking fairly appealing right now...

Stalkers lose 1 BS from moving and firing. They're also less accurate and degrade over time. They find it much harder to take cover, whereas Heavy Destroyers, as infantry, can go into almost anything and get a 2+. Heavy Destroyers have fly if they get locked in combat; stalkers have to either fight or forfeit shooting. Heavy Destroyers can sit on top of ruins, where Stalkers can't really do anything with ruins at all. You pay more for a unit which, in essence, does less.

I like stalkers, but there's very good reasons to pick one over the other. Stalkers are quite good though.

I'm also not entirely sure why people are rating the Doomsday Ark so highly. If you move at all, the main gun becomes hilariously ineffective against vehicles. The only thing a stationary Doomsday Ark is better at killing than Heavy Destroyers or Stalkers is hordes, which we don't really struggle with. I guess there's an argument there for the durability, but then you've also got to consider that assault armies with deep strike capabilities (most of them) or highly mobile armies will render your main anti-tank silent on the first or second turn. The Ark seems to me to exist in a world where it's great if you have a very open board against a slow assault army, and worse than the other options otherwise. Bear in mind that against the vast majority of tanks, D3 S10 AP-5 shots is the same as 2 S9 AP-4 shots on average, so you're paying 53 points to become more durable and get some extra gauss flayers. I'll try them out to test my theory, but they just seem worse than the other options. I would rather take a Heat Ray/THGC Stalker for fewer points.

I like the model, and it's an alternate take on heavy weaponry we haven't had before. Sit it on a backfield objective and let it blow stuff up. It gets charged? Fall back and blow stuff away with it's cannon and flayers.

Stalkers and arks lose accuracy as they take more damage, but you have to do more wounds than the equivalent points worth of heavy destroyers have before it degrades, and then it regenerates them back! And it can be repaired, and it's harder to do damage to them

Ooookay, so it looks like we still haven't settled on which is best ("each has it's merits").

So looking at Heavy Destroyers again, better in Heavy slot units of 2 or 3, or a single HD embedded in regular Fast slot units?

Normally I'd say embed them with regulars (gives the unit more models/wounds for RP purposes), but by the looks of it we're going to need a LOT of HDs working together to take down heavy armour/monsters. That either means lots of smaller sized units (like 3 or 4) or paying an enormous amount of points for a handful of very expensive guys (5 or 6, multiplied by four or more units?)
...
Ugh, just thinking about how small an army that would make is making me quite discouraged.

 skoffs wrote:
Ooookay, so it looks like we still haven't settled on which is best ("each has it's merits").

So looking at Heavy Destroyers again, better in Heavy slot units of 2 or 3, or a single HD embedded in regular Fast slot units?

Normally I'd say embed them with regulars (gives the unit more models/wounds for RP purposes), but by the looks of it we're going to need a LOT of HDs working together to take down heavy armour/monsters. That either means lots of smaller sized units (like 3 or 4) or paying an enormous amount of points for a handful of very expensive guys (5 or 6, multiplied by four or more units?)
...
Ugh, just thinking about how small an army that would make is making me quite discouraged.

I read a battle report of a guy using 3 x 3 HDestroyers squads w/ a DLord, versus Blood Angels. In the first turn he got a Land Raider, a Predator and half a Rhino with those guys.
I have yet to try them on the field, but it certainly is an interesting unit with the new weapon profiles.

torblind wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So, after being unimpressed by our vehicles, and Anni barges in particular, I decided to write a QS heavy list to see what it looks like. Actually seems like it might be ok...

Orikan

20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals

3x H.Destroyers

T.Stalker
Anni barge
Anni barge
Anni barge
DDA
DDA

2000pts, 4CPs

Pretty good anti-tank for a Necron list and a lot of dakka. Still has a decent phalanx to hold the mid field and the Anni barges are pretty fast moving if they need to grab an objective.

Don't you need another HQ?

It's the heavy support detachment so you only need 1HQ.

I had a DDA charged by a flying hive tyrant on turn 1 in a game. QS stopped a lot of the HTs damage then the Ark fell back and shot it in the face. First blood to Necrons lol.

 Actinium wrote:

punisher357 wrote:

I also think the triarch stalker is going to be huge in negating the -1 to hit that happens when you move the Ddark and doomscythe.

I'm not sure, but I think each stalker can boost the other. Is that right?

The stalker's targeting relay buffs all necron units shooting at a thing so yes that includes other stalkers. The buffs don't stack or anything though.

Sadly you do not get to mitigate the -1 to hit modifiers in the game with re-rolls on 1s, as in if you shoot at flyers or smoke launcher vehicles or whatever you don't re-roll on 1s or 2s because the 2 is subtracted down to a 1. In the rule book next to the psychic and shooting phase rules is a sidebar blurb about re-rolling and that says you do all re-rolling BEFORE you apply modifiers, so you would roll then re-roll your 1s then apply the negative 1 to hit that would reduce more results down to 1. Sucks for both targeting relay and destroyer's hardwired hatred.

Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit
Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.

However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.

punisher357 wrote:


Oh right! I forgot it isn't +1 to hit
Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with this edition so far....too many flash backs to the 5th/early 6th edition codec.

However, I am really looking forward to using the monolith! Being able to put all those shots on one target is a substantial amount of fire power.

Yup. I remember 5th edition when half our codex was useless. Guess we're back to that. I'm super disappointed too.

And the monolith still isn't worth it. You can get more Gauss shots from a unit of immortals, and they have the same strength and AP. And the particle whip is also lame at only AP-2, and the model is BS 4+ now, which is terrible.