Titan size

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**CREEEEEEEEED**

So I'm reading False Gods and the Imperator-class titan Dies Irae is described as being 43 metres tall. This is really tiny for something that's supposed to be able to level cities. It also says it could hold a full company of soldiers in each leg. Assuming that's humans not astartes, that's still logistically improbable. That's around 300 people fitting in the leg who need to not be crushed together like sardines and need a way of deploying. And if you look at the warlord titans from FW on a table alongside other models, it has to be at least 100 metres tall. Is it just Graham McNeill not being a good author, cause I've heard that's the case and so far it reads like a bad fanfiction.

**Mr Morden**

GW in general are not very good with actual figures or stats.

**ntw3001**

Whenever a unit of measurement comes up, replace it with Plot Units (PUs). An Imperator Titan is 43 PUs tall, which is precisely equal to the height necessary to fulfil the requirements of the plot.

**Drasius**

I have no idea how you figure that something 43m tall is too small to level a city when it's spewing out 8 battlecannon shots and 3 str d large blasts a turn (which is meant to be what, about 10 seconds?). Hell, it could literally just walk through the city as it pleased and destroy it that way.

43m is freakin' huge, that's basically Shaq boosted 20 times in size. The basic physics that means that the volume increases as a cube while height goes up linearly means that the legs should be significantly wider than they are to the point where you could probably fit a reduced strength company in the legs. A full company is probably reserved for the realms of hyperboly, I will grant you, but IIRC, the Warlord is actually fairly close to the scale they describe in the books. A search for "warlord titan height comparison" should yield a result where people have compared them.

**Waaaghpower**

Drasius wrote:
I have no idea how you figure that something 43m tall is too small to level a city when it's spewing out 8 battlecannon shots and 3 str d large blasts a turn (which is meant to be what, about 10 seconds?). Hell, it could literally just walk through the city as it pleased and destroy it that way.

43m is freakin' huge, that's basically Shaq boosted 20 times in size. The basic physics that means that the volume increases as a cube while height goes up linearly means that the legs should be significantly wider than they are to the point where you could probably fit a reduced strength company in the legs. A full company is probably reserved for the realms of hyperboly, I will grant you, but IIRC, the Warlord is actually fairly close to the scale they describe in the books. A search for "warlord titan height comparison" should yield a result where people have compared them.

43m is the size of a 12-story building. That has to hold crew, fuel, engines, and ammo. Unless the entirety of the entiror is dedicated purely to storing resources to fire the guns and keep the engines running (which is unlikely, since a single well-placed meltabomb could blow the entire thing if that were the case,) there's no way it is carryig enough firepower to level a 40k city.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Go to your local athletics track. Look at the hundred metres strip. Now halve it. Now take off a little more. It's really not that much. Huge is an overstatement. You'd expect it to be a few hundred metres, something like the empire state building at least. Possibly even the burj khalifa for the true 'god-machine' aesthetic.

**Peregrine**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
This is really tiny for something that's supposed to be able to level cities.

Why? Nuclear weapons can level cities without being massive. Firepower doesn't necessarily require skyscraper-scale size.

**Lord Kragan**

The thing is that the dies irae, in another novel, is described as being 141 meters tall. So chalk out the 43 meters figure and slap this one, which seems more fair to this kind of deathmachines.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Peregrine wrote:
CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
This is really tiny for something that's supposed to be able to level cities.

Why? Nuclear weapons can level cities without being massive. Firepower doesn't necessarily require skyscraper-scale size.

But the imperator isn't using nukes, it's using guns roughly equivalent to the great naval guns of WWII battleships, as well as lasers and missiles. Very powerful, but not city raising if there's only a few of them on the titan.

**Montambro**

Coming from a person actually in the military and in a combat job (Tanks). Size doesn't mean destruction capability. Our tanks are small compared to the 40k universe but we can destroy a heck of a lot. Its the ammunition type that will determine how effective it is against urban centers.

It also doesn't need to be as huge as you think in order to level the city.

I concede that for troop capacity 43 meters is a bit short.

but it also doesn't show how wide the legs are. Also they do not need to be comfortable. Its a delivery system. Not LUXURY HOTEL. Marine AAV's (Amphibious vehicles) aren't that big yet they can hold a lot of Marines.

For determining how many Marine we fit the moto "is always one more." I am sure that is exactly how the Mechanicum would look at lowly solar auxilia or imperial army troops.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Right, but it needs space for enough ammo. And remember, that's not 43 meters for 300 guys, it's 21.5, probably a bit less.

**OgreChubbs**

Well I do not think the mean they could fit comfortably like a transport leg or something. It is more we could squish them in there like those Asians did into the phone booth.

Also think of it this way do you really think a beetle car can out power what is it 400 horse power? I worked and lived around klides and those things can easly out muster a car. So I really doubt a bug can outmuscle 400 of them. Hell I think 400 klides could pull a house around easy enough.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

What's a klide and why is it or the Volkswagen beetle relevant?

**OgreChubbs**

clydesdale it is a horse. There is no way 1 horse power is the same as 1 clydesdale.

So take what they say with a bit of salt.

**Nazrak**

40k in "is not hard sci-fi" non shocker.

**AnomanderRake**

OgreChubbs wrote:
clydesdale it is a horse. There is no way 1 horse power is the same as 1 clydesdale.

So take what they say with a bit of salt.

'Horsepower' as a unit was a marketing term created by James Watt (pioneer of the steam engine) to advertise how much better the steam engine is at certain tasks than horses, it doesn't actually mean that the engine puts out the same amount of power as that many horses.

One of the more important things to consider is that the 'horsepower' is based on a horse doing sustained work over a long period of time, and thus has to worry about the horse injuring itself or getting tired out; an engine is much quicker/easier to fix or refuel than a horse, so the horse is running at far lower than peak capacity most of the time. The Wikipedia article on the subject cites a 1993 article in Nature that states that horses have been measured producing 15 horsepower in short bursts, but that 1 horsepower is a pretty good estimate for their useful output when performing agricultural tasks; you can 'overclock' a horse to drastically multiply its output briefly, but you can't take a 100hp engine and have it produce 1,500hp in short bursts.

We also have to consider that a horse isn't an overly-efficient way of translating energy into rotational motion, and that the horse has to move a lot more weight than an engine does (a 100-horsepower car (say, a VW Beetle) might weigh 850kg, but a hundred horses (using Wikipedia's figures on the weight of a Clydesdale) might be able to pull the same amount of weight on top of having to move 85,000kg of horse around), and that a horse has to lift itself (and hence work against gravity) while a car is resting on wheels and only has to worry about horizontal motion...

So bottom line: it's a complicated problem, and I'm not well-equipped to explain it, but thinking of 'horsepower' as 'the absolute output of a single horse' is an oversimplification that doesn't really fit reality particularly well.

(Also for the record the biggest engine in the current Beetle produces 168 horsepower. 400 is closer to a Mustang than a Beetle.)

**carldooley**

actually, 40 meters is closer to a 8 story building, not 12. But still, I know an easy way that those imperators could house a company in each leg: antigrav. Lord knows that the power generation is there already.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

How would antigrav help, and why is the titan's horsepower relevant to its ability to transport people (who must weigh a hell of a lot less that itself) or its ability to shoot and therefore level cities?

**Brother Michael**

This thread is the very embodiment of the reason sci-fi writers never give hard numbers.

Of course we know the real reason those numbers differ is because different authors have different mental images of the setting, and nobody is going to look up a model's statline before writing a story (if those writers even know the rules of 40k). However, using GW's convenient "everything is told by an unreliable in-universe narrator"-excuse, this logical discrepancy can be easily explained. For that, I'll give a little analogy first.

During WW2, on the Eastern front, an interesting discovery was made. Russian reports indicated a massive number of a certain German tank destroyer being destroyed (I think it was the Jagdpanther, but don't quote me on that). In fact, this number reported was higher than the amount of Jagdpanthers ever produced up to that point. Aside from tankers lying about their combat performance to avoid a one-way trip to the gulag, this discrepancy had a very simple reason: identification issues. From the distances tanks fire at each other, it was almost impossible to tell what kind of armour you were shooting at without a manual handy. StuG? Jagdpanther. Hetzer? Jagdpanther? Panzer IV H? Jagdpanther. L3-33? Jagdpanther.

So, you're some poor sod sent to die for his planet. You clutch your heavy, shoddily made lasgun, and look at the line of white-striped flak helmets and terrified faces that stretches out to either side. Suddenly, from behind a hab block behind you a 40 meter tall engine of death appears, larger than anything you have ever seen move that wasn't a spaceship. It almost looks like fire is burning within the eyes of its massive, hound-shaped head. Walking forward, the ground trembles with every mighty step it takes. A gun the size of a small tank sits on either arm, engaging the foe with blasts of blinding plasma and a ferocious hail of deafening bolt fire. Surely, such a titan of awesome destruction can be nothing but the very pinnacle of human warfare, the famed avatar of destruction vague rumors call an 'imperator titan'?

**kronk**

It's 28,000 years in the future.

If it isn't super advanced technology, it's *hand waves* magic!

**deathstalker013**

I have had this thought before, 40m doesn't sound much. But it is bigger than you think, if as previously stated it is the equivalent of an 8 story building, that's pretty high. The lower leg sections considering the stance of a titan would be at least the equivalent of a 2 story building making the legs about the size of an average house. You could easily fit a company in a house, not even that cramped think how small an APC is inside and they hold about 12 men with full kit.

**carldooley**

kronk wrote:
If it isn't super advanced technology, it's *hand waves* magic!

Arthur C Clarke FTW.

**Mr Morden**

Brother Michael wrote:
This thread is the very embodiment of the reason sci-fi writers never give hard numbers.

Of course we know the real reason those numbers differ is because different authors have different mental images of the setting, and nobody is going to look up a model's statline before writing a story (if those writers even know the rules of 40k). However, using GW's convenient "everything is told by an unreliable in-universe narrator"-excuse, this logical discrepancy can be easily explained. For that, I'll give a little analogy first.

During WW2, on the Eastern front, an interesting discovery was made. Russian reports indicated a massive number of a certain German tank destroyer being destroyed (I think it was the Jagdpanther, but don't quote me on that). In fact, this number reported was higher than the amount of Jagdpanthers ever produced up to that point. Aside from tankers lying about their combat performance to avoid a one-way trip to the gulag, this discrepancy had a very simple reason: identification issues. From the distances tanks fire at each other, it was almost impossible to tell what kind of armour you were shooting at without a manual handy. StuG? Jagdpanther. Hetzer? Jagdpanther? Panzer IV H? Jagdpanther. L3-33? Jagdpanther.

So, you're some poor sod sent to die for his planet. You clutch your heavy, shoddily made lasgun, and look at the line of white-striped flak helmets and terrified faces that stretches out to either side. Suddenly, from behind a hab block behind you a 40 meter tall engine of death appears, larger than anything you have ever seen move that wasn't a spaceship. It almost looks like fire is burning within the eyes of its massive, hound-shaped head. Walking forward, the ground trembles with every mighty step it takes. A gun the size of a small tank sits on either arm, engaging the foe with blasts of blinding plasma and a ferocious hail of deafening bolt fire. Surely, such a titan of awesome destruction can be nothing but the very pinnacle of human warfare, the famed avatar of destruction vague rumors call an 'imperator titan'?

Cool oh and nice prose

**Jackal**

Everyone is skipping or missing main points here.

The imperator titan is bigger than a warlord titan to start with.
Not sure if it actually has any 40k rules that aren't massively outdated.

It essentially has a barracks in each leg, and a cathedral on its back.
Using the epic scale one for comparison (even that was undersized for capacity) this thing would be huge.
43m is nowhere near big enough atall.

I'm not interested in damage output as we all know that it's variable to say the least and size has no bearing.

I'd expect this thing to be in the region of Atleast 200m or so to be capable of carrying what it does.

**jeffersonian000**

Given the nature of a walking machine with soldiers housed in the legs, some form of inertial dampening is needed to keep the soldiers from injury with each and every step. That much is a given. The same is true for the crew of such a large, unstable vehicle. Yes, the main body can be isolated from quite a lot of the motion, but not all, and the amount of mass that needs to count-balance the lifting of each foot would need to shift quitexa bit, lending to even more inertial dampening. Ht can all of that fit in a 43m structure?

Probably.

There are only 52 soldiers per leg, not including Titan crew that support each bastion. 52 people fit easily into a small theatre or large conference room. Split up and stacked, there is ample space in each leg for 52 soldiers and their gear in a two story personnel bay in each leg. This is a non-issue.

The remaining structure would house the motive armatures for the legs and arms, the power supply, crew access, the bridge/cockpit, the magazines, and the weapons. Given that the arm weapons are functionally self contained pods, and any any extra ammunition needed beyond power from the reactor can be stored in external magazines while directed energy weapons just need power storage, its just the the carapace and defensive weapons that require internal storage. Yet, carapace weapons can be just as self contained as the arm pods, while the defensive weapons can have localized, even internal magazines on each weapon system. Again, thus becomes a non-issue.

Sure, 43m is short, more in line with a Warlord Titan than an Imperator. Yet it's doable, just means less inherent armor due to thinner external walls. Still within the realm of possibility, in a setting of the impossible.

Note: the size is incorrect, the author was writing about a Warlord, but called it a very specific known Imperator, and therefore had to include troops in the legs. But the description was of a 40k era Proxima-pattern Warlord Titan that did not exist in 30k, which probably means the story was original written for 40k but was re-purposed to 30k, just like Battle of the Abyss.

SJ

**deathstalker013**

Some charts for comparison, did someone say the size of Empire State? That would be rediculous.

**OgreChubbs**

Ok your not getting me so I will give you a sifi reason. The Gravity was so strong there it shrunk it, like when something goes down deep in the ocean. So they can be 30000 feet to 3 feet tall based on the gravity. Also maybe they are different versions fast attack vs long sustain. No one says all Titans are built the same.

Anytime you see a size error gravity did it it or the warp.

On a real note it is a pretend story with no need for a basing in fact. So do not get to caught up in details. No space marine carry more then a single clip and seem to have enough to shoot everyone on he planet, the ammount of supply's needed to keep this up would be mind boggling. Every chapter would need to build a supply line to themselves about every third planet to keep them supplied. Food, water, oxygen, fuel, ammo and armour. None of this can happen they would need a 24/7 supply line and further they traveled the worse it would get. The supply line would start needing more supply's and it is....... A lot harder then land take over then move on, they would need to build a whole network.

Sifi fantasy is built on fun and entertainment not facts so you will never see an exact measurement for anything. Or how it would work, like how do they land shoot everyone then everyone praises them? Like someone said.
All sizes all equipment and how long how emotional or devoid of emotion marines are is based on what the novel needs them to be. The word bearers version of the two novels have Ultramarines helping civilans into the bunkers, the ultramarine version has them running and ditching everyone.

This is not like lotr or a series based on someone's version of things, they all just get the rights to wright a story and take liberties with it.

**Gamgee**

40k titan sizes are the most inconsistent I've ever seen in any sci-fi setting and I've seen a lot of inconsistency in my time.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Brother Michael wrote:

So, you're some poor sod sent to die for his planet. You clutch your heavy, shoddily made lasgun, and look at the line of white-striped flak helmets and terrified faces that stretches out to either side. Suddenly, from behind a hab block behind you a 40 meter tall engine of death appears, larger than anything you have ever seen move that wasn't a spaceship. It almost looks like fire is burning within the eyes of its massive, hound-shaped head. Walking forward, the ground trembles with every mighty step it takes. A gun the size of a small tank sits on either arm, engaging the foe with blasts of blinding plasma and a ferocious hail of deafening bolt fire. Surely, such a titan of awesome destruction can be nothing but the very pinnacle of human warfare, the famed avatar of destruction vague rumors call an 'imperator titan'?

Except the description is given by one of the princepts who pilots the Titan and it says he knows it so well he can tell you where every rivet is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

deathstalker013 wrote:
Some charts for comparison, did someone say the size of Empire State? That would be rediculous.

Having seen a space marine model next to a warlord Titan model, I can tell you that chart is totally inaccurate. It's much bigger. So how large must the imperator, which dwarfs the warlord, be?

**deathstalker013**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

deathstalker013 wrote:
Some charts for comparison, did someone say the size of Empire State? That would be rediculous.

Having seen a space marine model next to a warlord Titan model, I can tell you that chart is totally inaccurate. It's much bigger. So how large must the imperator, which dwarfs the warlord, be?